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Hi, I have been working on conversion of Angron for my pre heresy WE, now he is almost complete I´m thinking about the rules, but I always feel I´m on thin ice when designing my own rules, so here comes "ask the internets" part

for stats, I would think something like WS10/BS7/S6/T6/I5/W6/A5/LD10/sv 2+/4+, eternal w, feel no pain, furious charge, fleet.. special rules: 12" furious charge aura, bonus attacks equal to unsaved wounds he deals in CC (furioso w blood talons style, bot no bonus attacks for bonus attacks ) and all succesfull CC hits against him must be rerolled.. as a weapon a would give him master crafted power axe with rending rule. I guess price for monster like this could be around 600 points?

so what do you think? are those rules ok?

Angron had twin chainaxes, so maybe just two mastercrafted rending CCW?

Based on his rules from the Battle of Armageddon worksheet, statwise I would put him at BS5/W5/I6 instead. Keep him at S6 though, as S7 seems feels representative of his post-heresy daemonic stature.

I would drop some of the special rules - FnP/Fleet/re-rolls to hit him which while they maybe fluffy they aren't really needed in game. Also maybe change the Furious Charge bubble which would be useless if you're still running it in an army of Berzerkers. Then as Vampirate of Sartsosa suggests, I'd give him a Gorefather/Gorechild combo-weapon that is relatively similar to Kharn's version (hits on 2+, 2D6 AP) with one acting like a PW and the other a PF.

First, thanks for your replies and advices

Actually, the model I made has two chainaxes: here is the big boy http://s15.postimage.org/s58my97bv/angron.jpg
I just decided they should not add additional attack, as 6 attacks on charge with bonus attacks form special rule are just enough (and 4 base attacks would look quite weak for a primarch) so he is A5 with no additional attacks for two weapons.

I really like the Gorefather/Gorechild idea, one acting as PW and other as PF, it would suit the model and hiting on 2+ could replace reroll for master crafted.

I must say I never really liked daemonic Angron from that datasheet, he seems too underpowered for daemon Primarch to me, especialy compared to some latest special characters.

BS is just cosmetic stat for him, as I didnt gave him any shooting weapon (he may have at least bolt pistol though), for the special rules.. I play my pre heresy WE with BA codex, so there are lots of FNP/FS auras around in apocalypse from priests anyways, I would probably keep FNP as it is fluffy for him, but drop FS aura and probably fleet (which is more of a fun thing, as he is only one in BA army with fleet I think (not counting Meph), he cant really use it while he is joined to unit, but he can leave his bodyguards and charge forvard by himself, like he just cant wait to start the carnage - thats very Angronish to me ).. also, as he is not Sangi or Corax with their fancy wings, he is really slow when he loses his transport (which is almost always, given the fact that he is high priority target, we played 2 test games and in both his LR was destoyed by Warhounds turbo laser on turn 1/2), fleet helps just a little with mobility

Rerolls to hit him represent his martial prowess (as he was best CC fighter primarch together with Sanguinius and Horus) so it takes really worthy opponent to hit him (and many really tough SCs have master crafted weapons or rerolls anyways, so it cancels each other out) also, it really helps him to survive first group of TH/SS termies he meets

As for the power level, me and my friend tried duel him vs Zarakynel yesterday, he won the fight, but with only 1 wound left, so he is able to beat Daemon lord in 1vs1 fight, but takes serious damaga in the process and its definitely not easy fight for him.. I gues that would be right power level for fighter Primarch?

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Angron had twin chainaxes, so maybe just two mastercrafted rending CCW?

Angron only wielded chain axes in the Abnett-verse of the HH series.

In the main continuity, he wielded a single black sword given to him by the Emperor.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Angron had twin chainaxes, so maybe just two mastercrafted rending CCW?

Angron only wielded chain axes in the Abnett-verse of the HH series.

In the main continuity, he wielded a single black sword given to him by the Emperor.

Gorechild and Gorefather would like to talk to you for a second, seeing as they're mentioned in the Chaos Space Marine Codex (with Gorechild being Khârn's current weapon).

Also dismiss those angron rules from the WD they are to tie in with the (crappy) design that was going on with the Chaos/Deaons/DA/Eldar books, had they done it in the current Ward era, he would more than likely be similar to what you have made..
Good job btw i like it

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Angron had twin chainaxes, so maybe just two mastercrafted rending CCW?

Angron only wielded chain axes in the Abnett-verse of the HH series.

In the main continuity, he wielded a single black sword given to him by the Emperor.

Gorechild and Gorefather would like to talk to you for a second, seeing as they're mentioned in the Chaos Space Marine Codex (with Gorechild being Khârn's current weapon).

So you're trying to disagree with me by citing a source that states Gorefather and Gorechild were only wielded by Angron in an HH series novel?

As the HH series novels are official canon, I don't see why this is a problem, according to Lexicanum he only started using his Black Blade after becoming a Daemon Prince.

Personally I think the axes are cooler, and like the idea of one acting as a PW and the other being a PF. though that doesn't really fit as they aren't power weapons like, at all.

Rending CCW's seems to be the best bet, you could probably get away with letting him have the bonus attacks from em too since they will allow armor saves.

Panopticon wrote:As the HH series novels are official canon,

Citation Needed.

I once made stats for Dorn as a shoot-then-assault unit, I had his stats at:

WS9/BS10/S6/T6/W5/I7/A5/Ld10/Sv2+/4++

Not dissimilar to what you have, I counted him as a monstrous creature, gave him frag and defensive grenades, Dorn's arrow (except lowered AP to three), The hammer Lysander has and the soul spear (logic, since they all belonged to him). How it worked was he gets an extra attack for two CC weapons, and +2A on the charge, and he gets to make one I7 attack per turn with the soulspear, which counts as getting hit by a vortex weapons, and the rest of his attacks are with the hammer, and strike at I4 (slower because of the hammer, but he can still swing it as fast as a legionary can swing a sword!).

I valued him at 725pts, and he worked about right for that points level. I gave him a few special rules. Any unit he joins is fearless, and has preferred enemy against everyone. The negative is that when/if he loses all his wounds, he MUST be recovered by a friendly unit, and once this friendly unit has him, they must move towards their table edge to bring him to safety, basically taking his unit out of the fight. He also has fleet.

Oh and the vortex attack was against all models in B2B with him, sort of like that thing the brotherhood champion does. Keeps him from getting tarpitted.

His rules work because he can wipe a tac squad in one round, but needs to do that about 5 times to get his points back, so he's not OP. He only really makes his points back attacking vehicles, termies and big creatures.

Gygax once wrote: "If you stat it, they will kill it." He was referring to D&D, but I suspect it applies here: do you really want to kill Angron? Because someone will.

DarknessEternal wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Angron had twin chainaxes, so maybe just two mastercrafted rending CCW?

Angron only wielded chain axes in the Abnett-verse of the HH series.

In the main continuity, he wielded a single black sword given to him by the Emperor.

Gorechild and Gorefather would like to talk to you for a second, seeing as they're mentioned in the Chaos Space Marine Codex (with Gorechild being Khârn's current weapon).

So you're trying to disagree with me by citing a source that states Gorefather and Gorechild were only wielded by Angron in an HH series novel?

I'm providing a source that you promptly ignored. It's even listed as a source on Lexicanum. But I guess the Codex "isn't canon" or "doesn't count"?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Angron had twin chainaxes, so maybe just two mastercrafted rending CCW?

Angron only wielded chain axes in the Abnett-verse of the HH series.

In the main continuity, he wielded a single black sword given to him by the Emperor.

Gorechild and Gorefather would like to talk to you for a second, seeing as they're mentioned in the Chaos Space Marine Codex (with Gorechild being Khârn's current weapon).

So you're trying to disagree with me by citing a source that states Gorefather and Gorechild were only wielded by Angron in an HH series novel?

I'm providing a source that you promptly ignored. It's even listed as a source on Lexicanum. But I guess the Codex "isn't canon" or "doesn't count"?

Im with you on this dude, just saying "citation needed" is kinda rude, i think what he meant to say was "you sure about that bra, could you please provide me with a reference so i can look, as i may have missed that bit of fluff, thanks" which is much nicer

The chaos marine dex mentions 2 weapons but i cant see the gorefather bit in it to be honest, but that may be because i skimmed it over lol

AnomanderRake wrote:Gygax once wrote: "If you stat it, they will kill it." He was referring to D&D, but I suspect it applies here: do you really want to BANISH Angron? Because someone will.

Fixed.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'm providing a source that you promptly ignored. It's even listed as a source on Lexicanum. But I guess the Codex "isn't canon" or "doesn't count"?

The codex was listed as a source used for that page, It was not cited as a source for your particular claim, the HH novel was.

I dont think it really matters what weapon he has, I have seen version with two handed chain glaive, two chainaxes and big sword - the last one mostly on his daemonic version though. I think as a Primarch, he could choose any weapon he wants.

My version is based on HH books and Butchers Nails audio book (cover of that audiobook was quite inspiration for the model) I just like how angry and barbaric he looks with two huge chainaxes

As for the rules, I think power weapon is really basic minimum for 600 points CC specialist that doesnt do anything else than fight in CC, I could drop the rending rule, or make him monstrous creature as Je suis2 au hazard wrote above , but I would need to give him another special rule so he would be able to join a unit, right?

I wouldnt give any Primarch vortex weapon though (I know it was in Soul Drinkers books) as I would save this one for the Emprah himself

AnomanderRake wrote:Gygax once wrote: "If you stat it, they will kill it." He was referring to D&D, but I suspect it applies here: do you really want to kill Angron? Because someone will.

That is very true, but I always think more of a "badly wounded and draged from the battlefield to safety" when any SC dies in my games, marines are tough guys and can heal really serious wounds, it applies doble for the Primarchs.. but when he is hit by vortex missile and dies I´m ok with it, as it would probably kill Primarch even in the fluff

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:I once made stats for Dorn as a shoot-then-assault unit, I had his stats at:

WS9/BS10/S6/T6/W5/I7/A5/Ld10/Sv2+/4++

Way too high. Primarchs and the GEOM are not infallible, they are never shown being as fast as I7, or as skilled as WS 9 and BS 10. Remember Sanguinus, one of the strongest primarchs got his legs broken by a blood thirster in round one of their fight (granted he killed the blood thirster in Terra, but he still lost once). At their best they should be maybe equal to a greater daemon with the possible exceptions of the Daemon Primarchs. Their main powers should be in boosting your army, they are super human generals after all.

DarknessEternal wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'm providing a source that you promptly ignored. It's even listed as a source on Lexicanum. But I guess the Codex "isn't canon" or "doesn't count"?

The codex was listed as a source used for that page, It was not cited as a source for your particular claim, the HH novel was.

So it did, I fail. Sorry if I came across as rude.

Buttons wrote:

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:I once made stats for Dorn as a shoot-then-assault unit, I had his stats at:

WS9/BS10/S6/T6/W5/I7/A5/Ld10/Sv2+/4++

Way too high. Primarchs and the GEOM are not infallible, they are never shown being as fast as I7, or as skilled as WS 9 and BS 10. Remember Sanguinus, one of the strongest primarchs got his legs broken by a blood thirster in round one of their fight (granted he killed the blood thirster in Terra, but he still lost once). At their best they should be maybe equal to a greater daemon with the possible exceptions of the Daemon Primarchs. Their main powers should be in boosting your army, they are super human generals after all.

I based the initiative boost off of the description of how fast Dorn reacted and punched Garro in the HH novel Flight of the Eisenstein and the fact that Fulgrim was moving faster than the Avatar of khaine in [i[]Fulgrim[/i].

WS9 seems only natural, from what we've seen in the HH series...

BS10 is more because in my mind, I cannot picture a primarch missing a shot.

S6 is because we've seen Ferrus Manus flip a battle tank, fairly casually. And because he is stronger than a crisis suit.

T6 is because Bolt weapons should have a hell of a time taking him down.

W5 is because he should be tougher than Lysander, Calgar etc.

A5 you can't call unreasonable. Ld10 is obvious, the rest shouldn't be a problem either...

They are not infallible, but they would definitely be capable of wrecking several squads of tac marines, which is what this character can do.

LOL I've seen people who have almost every stat at ten and make them cost 1200ish points

You don't want to know what kind of things I've seen done with scratch-made rules for the GEOM.

Buttons wrote:

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:I once made stats for Dorn as a shoot-then-assault unit, I had his stats at:

WS9/BS10/S6/T6/W5/I7/A5/Ld10/Sv2+/4++

Way too high. Primarchs and the GEOM are not infallible, they are never shown being as fast as I7, or as skilled as WS 9 and BS 10. Remember Sanguinus, one of the strongest primarchs got his legs broken by a blood thirster in round one of their fight (granted he killed the blood thirster in Terra, but he still lost once). At their best they should be maybe equal to a greater daemon with the possible exceptions of the Daemon Primarchs. Their main powers should be in boosting your army, they are super human generals after all.

That Bloodthirster was Ka´Bandha, champion of Khrone and basically 30k version of Angrath the Unbound, who alone is a 8 wound T8 monstosity with gazzilions of attacks, there is probably no single model in 40k with exception of other gargantuan creatures (and maybe Hector Rex, if he is really lucky) that can beat him in 1vs1 duel, fact that Sangi was eventually able to kill him actually shows pretty impresive power level of primarchs.

and Ka'Bandha is the super BT, so nasty that he wouldnt even fit in Apoc due to how broken he would be

Formosa wrote:and Ka'Bandha is the super BT, so nasty that he wouldnt even fit in Apoc due to how broken he would be

so basically he's like your profile pic?

pretty much yeah

Formosa wrote:and Ka'Bandha is the super BT, so nasty that he wouldnt even fit in Apoc due to how broken he would be

He could fit into apoc. An'ggrath is stronger, and has an apoc model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sidcom wrote:

Buttons wrote:

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:I once made stats for Dorn as a shoot-then-assault unit, I had his stats at:

WS9/BS10/S6/T6/W5/I7/A5/Ld10/Sv2+/4++

Way too high. Primarchs and the GEOM are not infallible, they are never shown being as fast as I7, or as skilled as WS 9 and BS 10. Remember Sanguinus, one of the strongest primarchs got his legs broken by a blood thirster in round one of their fight (granted he killed the blood thirster in Terra, but he still lost once). At their best they should be maybe equal to a greater daemon with the possible exceptions of the Daemon Primarchs. Their main powers should be in boosting your army, they are super human generals after all.

That Bloodthirster was Ka´Bandha, champion of Khrone and basically 30k version of Angrath the Unbound, who alone is a 8 wound T8 monstosity with gazzilions of attacks, there is probably no single model in 40k with exception of other gargantuan creatures (and maybe Hector Rex, if he is really lucky) that can beat him in 1vs1 duel, fact that Sangi was eventually able to kill him actually shows pretty impresive power level of primarchs.

This. Even other gargantuan creatures can't beat him in CC, you really need titans/vortex weapons/ Broadsides spam (still wounding on 2+!!!) The only Gargantuan creature close to as strong is Tzeentch's daemon lord, and he is not meant for CC the way An'ggrath is, so would get beaten.

Does Hextor Rex have a model? I know he beat An'ggrath in the fluff (with the help of a full company of Grey Knights...) is that what you're referencing?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'm providing a source that you promptly ignored. It's even listed as a source on Lexicanum. But I guess the Codex "isn't canon" or "doesn't count"?

The codex was listed as a source used for that page, It was not cited as a source for your particular claim, the HH novel was.

So it did, I fail. Sorry if I came across as rude.

What? Where did you cite the HH novels as your source? What the hell is happening in this thread?

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:

Formosa wrote:and Ka'Bandha is the super BT, so nasty that he wouldnt even fit in Apoc due to how broken he would be

He could fit into apoc. An'ggrath is stronger, and has an apoc model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sidcom wrote:

Buttons wrote:

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:I once made stats for Dorn as a shoot-then-assault unit, I had his stats at:

WS9/BS10/S6/T6/W5/I7/A5/Ld10/Sv2+/4++

Way too high. Primarchs and the GEOM are not infallible, they are never shown being as fast as I7, or as skilled as WS 9 and BS 10. Remember Sanguinus, one of the strongest primarchs got his legs broken by a blood thirster in round one of their fight (granted he killed the blood thirster in Terra, but he still lost once). At their best they should be maybe equal to a greater daemon with the possible exceptions of the Daemon Primarchs. Their main powers should be in boosting your army, they are super human generals after all.

That Bloodthirster was Ka´Bandha, champion of Khrone and basically 30k version of Angrath the Unbound, who alone is a 8 wound T8 monstosity with gazzilions of attacks, there is probably no single model in 40k with exception of other gargantuan creatures (and maybe Hector Rex, if he is really lucky) that can beat him in 1vs1 duel, fact that Sangi was eventually able to kill him actually shows pretty impresive power level of primarchs.

This. Even other gargantuan creatures can't beat him in CC, you really need titans/vortex weapons/ Broadsides spam (still wounding on 2+!!!) The only Gargantuan creature close to as strong is Tzeentch's daemon lord, and he is not meant for CC the way An'ggrath is, so would get beaten.

Does Hextor Rex have a model? I know he beat An'ggrath in the fluff (with the help of a full company of Grey Knights...) is that what you're referencing?

Isnt Bandor the 1st bloodthirster or the father of bloodthirsters? i cant quite remember

Formosa wrote:

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:

Formosa wrote:and Ka'Bandha is the super BT, so nasty that he wouldnt even fit in Apoc due to how broken he would be

He could fit into apoc. An'ggrath is stronger, and has an apoc model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sidcom wrote:

Buttons wrote:

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:I once made stats for Dorn as a shoot-then-assault unit, I had his stats at:

WS9/BS10/S6/T6/W5/I7/A5/Ld10/Sv2+/4++

Way too high. Primarchs and the GEOM are not infallible, they are never shown being as fast as I7, or as skilled as WS 9 and BS 10. Remember Sanguinus, one of the strongest primarchs got his legs broken by a blood thirster in round one of their fight (granted he killed the blood thirster in Terra, but he still lost once). At their best they should be maybe equal to a greater daemon with the possible exceptions of the Daemon Primarchs. Their main powers should be in boosting your army, they are super human generals after all.

That Bloodthirster was Ka´Bandha, champion of Khrone and basically 30k version of Angrath the Unbound, who alone is a 8 wound T8 monstosity with gazzilions of attacks, there is probably no single model in 40k with exception of other gargantuan creatures (and maybe Hector Rex, if he is really lucky) that can beat him in 1vs1 duel, fact that Sangi was eventually able to kill him actually shows pretty impresive power level of primarchs.

This. Even other gargantuan creatures can't beat him in CC, you really need titans/vortex weapons/ Broadsides spam (still wounding on 2+!!!) The only Gargantuan creature close to as strong is Tzeentch's daemon lord, and he is not meant for CC the way An'ggrath is, so would get beaten.

Does Hextor Rex have a model? I know he beat An'ggrath in the fluff (with the help of a full company of Grey Knights...) is that what you're referencing?

Isnt Bandor the 1st bloodthirster or the father of bloodthirsters? i cant quite remember

I think you mean Ka'bandha, there's no one called Bandor, and An'ggrath is THE bloodthirster, it used to be Skarbrand, but now it's An'ggrath.

The official description (the short part) is "An'ggrath the Unbound, the Guardian of the Throne of Skulls, Most Favoured of Khorne, Lord of Bloodthirsters and the Deathbringer is the mightiest Bloodthirster yet summoned from the warp, and Khorne's most favoured servant"

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:
BS10 is more because in my mind, I cannot picture a primarch missing a shot.

If you're using the HH series, it's all 10s across the board.

In those books, regular Space Marines are hip shotting people through the "eye" (even though power armor doesn't have eye holes, but that's another story) with 100% success during a full run. And that's BS 4, apparently.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:
BS10 is more because in my mind, I cannot picture a primarch missing a shot.

If you're using the HH series, it's all 10s across the board.

In those books, regular Space Marines are hip shotting people through the "eye" (even though power armor doesn't have eye holes, but that's another story) with 100% success during a full run. And that's BS 4, apparently.

Skillwise they don't need to fully match up to the HH books, I just used those because I feel their physical abilities should match those books.

And I think you are specifically thinking of Know No Fear, am I right?