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If they are so awesome, why don't they have more space marines in them? Why wait for them to be nearly killed?

A chapter doesnt have too many, and they can keep valuable battle brothers alive for a few more fights. Also tradition.

As above said. They are rare and few in number.

Also...

The same reason why I'm waiting for my Kidneys to fail before I get put on dialysis, my liver to fail before I get a transplant, my lungs to fail before I have to use a ventilator. And the need to have my meals as a intravenous infusion instead of actual food as a last resort.

And in the event all of the above occur, then you have to ask... Is it worth struggling to continue? Some may say yes, some say no and desire peace.

The Space marines however relish the opprtunity to serve the Emperor for millenia, but few would volunteer to enclose them selves in what is probably the closest thing to the above example I can think of.

Fight till you die and then take the final option.

I think they used to be like any other mech where the pilot had the choice of leaving it and wasn't hard wired into it. Now though they're a life support system in a tank, so if they wanted to pilot one without being almost killed they'd likely have their arms and legs amputated then be stuck in it like any other. This of course sort of wastes the potential of the marine and sustaining valuable veterans which can use it's life support system to actually live, continue to fight and guide the younger marines with their wisdom. Hence the tradition they use has a pretty good reason behind it.

Being in a Dreadnaught isn't a good thing for a Marine. While they view it as a honor if they must, nobody willingly accepts the fate that awaits you. An eternity of nothing but fighting and a gradual slipping away of your sanity.

Though at least they're not as bad as Chaos dreadnought who basically are monsters that need to be chained up.

It seems like they would just make more dreadnoughts and make them so that the marines could get in and out of them.

Or at least make some other sort of battle suit that still has all the armor and weapons.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:It seems like they would just make more dreadnoughts and make them so that the marines could get in and out of them.

Or at least make some other sort of battle suit that still has all the armor and weapons.

designing a new vehicle? Developing new technology? HERESY! - response of AdMech

I suppose that's what the Dreadknight is for now or the Knights in general, though those probably can't be operated by marines even if they had the training.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:It seems like they would just make more dreadnoughts and make them so that the marines could get in and out of them.

Or at least make some other sort of battle suit that still has all the armor and weapons.

I don't think you quite understand how the imperial tech works...

They do make the odd improvement or invention/modification (if the Vindicator background hasn't changed) though it's usually small. Something as grimdark as the Dreadnought with all the sort of religion and tradition put into it isn't likely to see a change as drastic.

Advancement in the IoM at this point is taking a gun from something else, and bolting it onto another chassis.

Or like the Power Armour, sort of rearranging it a bit maybe throw out something old and replace it with something incompatible with older designs or is in some way more of a disadvantage to the design over all.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:It seems like they would just make more dreadnoughts and make them so that the marines could get in and out of them.

What's the point? You don't need an army of support vehicles to fight a war. You need soldiers to fight a war.

Or at least make some other sort of battle suit that still has all the armor and weapons.

Why in the world would you make a battle suit?

"Battle suits" like the Tau's Crisis Suit limit the wearer. They require hardpoints for their weaponry--for the most part at least--and will restrict you in terms of armament to what can effectively be run off the suit's power generators.
They also limit the wearer to what environments they can operate in. A Crisis Suit, for example, can not operate inside of an apartment complex's middle floors or take cover within a room effectively. An Astartes wearing Powered Armor can. A Crisis Suit can not open and close a door to conceal their tracks as to where they moved to or the direction they went--they have to blow or kick the door down, stomping through leaving a giant trail.

Battle suits are not as great as you'd think they are for warfare by and large. They'd have their place as "superheavy infantry", but when it comes down to it they have their limitations same as anything else.

Theres also the fact that power armor pretty much fits the role of a battle suit already, what with the protection, enhancement, and the improved ability to use heavy weapons. Hell, its probably better, being more compact and modular than the tau version. But lets not start another Tau vs. IoM tech argument

The choice to live a relatively normal existence, with all of your regular physical faculties...

Or be a giant robotic monstrosity... forever. Obviously you haven't put too much thought into this. Being selected for service in a dreadnaught is a great honor. But it's kinda like earning a Purple Heart. It's not exactly something you're going to strive for, lol.

Kanluwen wrote:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:It seems like they would just make more dreadnoughts and make them so that the marines could get in and out of them.

What's the point? You don't need an army of support vehicles to fight a war. You need soldiers to fight a war.

Or at least make some other sort of battle suit that still has all the armor and weapons.

Why in the world would you make a battle suit?

"Battle suits" like the Tau's Crisis Suit limit the wearer. They require hardpoints for their weaponry--for the most part at least--and will restrict you in terms of armament to what can effectively be run off the suit's power generators.
They also limit the wearer to what environments they can operate in. A Crisis Suit, for example, can not operate inside of an apartment complex's middle floors or take cover within a room effectively. An Astartes wearing Powered Armor can. A Crisis Suit can not open and close a door to conceal their tracks as to where they moved to or the direction they went--they have to blow or kick the door down, stomping through leaving a giant trail.

Battle suits are not as great as you'd think they are for warfare by and large. They'd have their place as "superheavy infantry", but when it comes down to it they have their limitations same as anything else.

To be fair in most cases with doors Astartes would be in much the same situation. Especially with the scale creep in the stories where marines get bigger all the time (I doubt a 9' tall walking fridge could or would need to take cover behind a couch though the mental image is quite amusing ). Crisis suits are more like an in between of Terminator armour and Dreadnought I suppose, one day the Tau may develop the XV8s into powered armour more similar to the Astartes type. Which reminds me that Terminators are already quite fitting for an even heavily armoured shock force, in a force such as the SM the Dread even seems a little too clumsy looking at times.

The permanent transition to a dreadnought always seemed kind of sweet to me, too. Aaron Dembski-Bowden's descriptions of a dreadnought's view on the matter in Soul Hunter give a pretty good image of the horror they live in.

Besides, even back in Rogue Trader when you could leave Dreadnought suits it wasn't necessarily wise. There was a chance to take permanent and massive nerve damage when severing the spinal connection to the machine.

edit: dug out my RT book and checked - once accustomed to the functions and senses of the suit you lost 1d4-1 points off a random Personal characteristic for leaving it. Every time. Personal characteristics back then were Leadership, Intelligence, Cool and Willpower.

Dreadnoughts are primarily used to keep the marine in question alive and in active service...
If a marine is experienced enough they will be placed into a sarcophagus so they can pass on their experience and knowledge to other marines.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Or at least make some other sort of battle suit that still has all the armor and weapons.

For example, perhaps they could wear armor that boosts their physical abilities and senses, while still being able to shrug off all but anti-tank weapons, while carrying full automatic grenade launchers...oh wait.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:It seems like they would just make more dreadnoughts and make them so that the marines could get in and out of them.

Or at least make some other sort of battle suit that still has all the armor and weapons.

Because if they did that, they'd call it a dreadknight and everyone would whine about it...

Well, Dreadnaught armour is definately bad ass, but in game terms your "just a vehicle": power armour has far more "survivability"... As for the fluff, I think transitioning a living organism into what is basically a giant cyborg-servitor with out giving it a lobotomy is costly and complicated as well as dangerous and painful to the subject. Then there's the fact that the tech involved is probably barley even comprehended and the resources, capabilities and facilities that are needed when creating a suit of Dreadnaught Armor are next to non existent at this point in the IoM so they can't "just build more"? Also theres a good chance they won't even survive the process, so it's always viewed as a last ditch effort to save an honored hero who's knowlege and expertise would be a tragic loss to a chapter. Then even if it's successful, once your "in there" and your conscience has been "uploaded" into a circuit board and will "live" there, a "ghost in the machine" for all eternity but you are still "aware" and have "feelings" and "thoughts", there's a good chance you'll slowly go insane! (...picture that Metallica video, "One") Thus the need for cryo-stasis, which is probably like waking up from a coma, where they have to tell you every time "...Hi, um ya, remember? You suffered some horrible wounds you shouldn't have survived? No, its been a hundred years and everyone you know is dead and your only here because a: we stuck you in this piece of archeo-tech monstrosity that we dont even really understand and b: we're about to get our asses kicked and we really need your help bad!" Of course if your Chaos, you'll just be kept awake to be tormented and tortured in order to insure that you loose your sanity completely! Not exactly the sort if thing your average Marine is going to sign up for "willingly", some chapters even see it as flat out Heresy and view the priesthood of Mars with great suspicion, refusing to partake in the "ritual" at all... (aka: "Flesh Over Steel" ?)

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:It seems like they would just make more dreadnoughts and make them so that the marines could get in and out of them.

Or at least make some other sort of battle suit that still has all the armor and weapons.

It's stated in the 5th Edition SM codex that the construction of Dreadnoughts is more or less a lost art, so any Dreadnought suits that are still with a chapter are treated as prized relics.

Back in M31 I'm sure the Imperium was pumping them off the assembly line though.

Being in a Dreadnaught is actually a horible, tortured existence. Marines only do it out of duty to the Emperor.

DxM Scotty MxD wrote:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:It seems like they would just make more dreadnoughts and make them so that the marines could get in and out of them.

Or at least make some other sort of battle suit that still has all the armor and weapons.

designing a new vehicle? Developing new technology? HERESY! - response of AdMech

Yeah, that's pretty much what happens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The choice to live a relatively normal existence, with all of your regular physical faculties...

Or be a giant robotic monstrosity... forever. Obviously you haven't put too much thought into this. Being selected for service in a dreadnaught is a great honor. But it's kinda like earning a Purple Heart. It's not exactly something you're going to strive for, lol.

Well, I didn't know anything about the transition, but the space marines already have a not-great existence anyway. They don't do anything except fight for the Emperor, and the only way out is to die horribly.

As above. Would not want to be a sm.

To be fair, i see no reason why a suit of tactical dread armour cant support life functions indefinitley. Self contained, bunch of servos, probably a poop chute.... just stick dying marines in those if you are out of dread chassis.

But, really i dont see any reason why they cant make a dread with room for legs and arms whatnot. Be way easier.

skronk wrote:As above. Would not want to be a sm.

To be fair, i see no reason why a suit of tactical dread armour cant support life functions indefinitley. Self contained, bunch of servos, probably a poop chute.... just stick dying marines in those if you are out of dread chassis.

But, really i dont see any reason why they cant make a dread with room for legs and arms whatnot. Be way easier.

Yeah.

Your last point is what I as getting at the most.

Kanluwen wrote:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:It seems like they would just make more dreadnoughts and make them so that the marines could get in and out of them.

What's the point? You don't need an army of support vehicles to fight a war. You need soldiers to fight a war.

Or at least make some other sort of battle suit that still has all the armor and weapons.

Why in the world would you make a battle suit?

"Battle suits" like the Tau's Crisis Suit limit the wearer. They require hardpoints for their weaponry--for the most part at least--and will restrict you in terms of armament to what can effectively be run off the suit's power generators.
They also limit the wearer to what environments they can operate in. A Crisis Suit, for example, can not operate inside of an apartment complex's middle floors or take cover within a room effectively. An Astartes wearing Powered Armor can. A Crisis Suit can not open and close a door to conceal their tracks as to where they moved to or the direction they went--they have to blow or kick the door down, stomping through leaving a giant trail.

Battle suits are not as great as you'd think they are for warfare by and large. They'd have their place as "superheavy infantry", but when it comes down to it they have their limitations same as anything else.

You realize that you're talking about Space Marines, right? You know, those guys who run around in battle armor all day long? Space Marines run into the problems you've mentioned all the time (No, a 7 foot monstrosity isn't taking cover behind anything you would find in a small apartment). They get around it by being super durable and having immense fire power.

Which is what a dreadnought is.

Kanluwen wrote:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:It seems like they would just make more dreadnoughts and make them so that the marines could get in and out of them.

What's the point? You don't need an army of support vehicles to fight a war. You need soldiers to fight a war.

But what if you had an army where the infantry WAS all Dreadnoughts An army where assault cannon are the standard infantry rifle. Large infantry, admittedly, but infantry all the same. Why fight in a building when you can fight through it!

Sure they'd need to keep some scout types around for sneaking and retrieving items without tearing the building apart first, but otherwise it sounds like a solid plan!

BlaxicanX wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:It seems like they would just make more dreadnoughts and make them so that the marines could get in and out of them.

What's the point? You don't need an army of support vehicles to fight a war. You need soldiers to fight a war.

Or at least make some other sort of battle suit that still has all the armor and weapons.

Why in the world would you make a battle suit?

"Battle suits" like the Tau's Crisis Suit limit the wearer. They require hardpoints for their weaponry--for the most part at least--and will restrict you in terms of armament to what can effectively be run off the suit's power generators.
They also limit the wearer to what environments they can operate in. A Crisis Suit, for example, can not operate inside of an apartment complex's middle floors or take cover within a room effectively. An Astartes wearing Powered Armor can. A Crisis Suit can not open and close a door to conceal their tracks as to where they moved to or the direction they went--they have to blow or kick the door down, stomping through leaving a giant trail.

Battle suits are not as great as you'd think they are for warfare by and large. They'd have their place as "superheavy infantry", but when it comes down to it they have their limitations same as anything else.

You realize that you're talking about Space Marines, right? You know, those guys who run around in battle armor all day long?

What is being described in the post I replied to is a "Battle Suit", not "Battle Armor". Battle Suits are traditionally slightly larger, with fixed weapons which would have to be swapped out by specialist upkeep personnel behind the primary lines of conflict. It's also "operated" and not "worn" like a normal suit of armor.

Space Marines run into the problems you've mentioned all the time (No, a 7 foot monstrosity isn't taking cover behind anything you would find in a small apartment).

I never said they would be "taking cover" behind anything in there. Please, read posts in-depth before replying. It makes things go much smoother.

The simple fact that I was making is that PA infantry can go places where Crisis Suits and Terminator Armor(the closer "Battle Suit" analogue that the Imperium has than the Powered Armor) are not going to be able to operate like infantry proper. Where PA infantry can go inside of these structures and set up ambushes for targets on the exterior without leaving much in the way of warning signs--you're not going to be able to do that with Crisis Suits or Terminator Armor.

They get around it by being super durable and having immense fire power.

Er no. They "get around it" by being super durable and adaptable. An Astartes wearing his powered armor is still able to manipulate his environment without leaving too much in the way of evidence from his passing. He is not restricted in what weaponry he will use on the battlefield, as if his primary weapon--the bolter in your average Astartes' case--is not viable against a target, he can in fact acquire another weapon and operate it if he can find one.

Which is what a dreadnought is.

I'm not debating that part. I'm debating the practicality of full-scale Dreadnought usage. It's fine and dandy if you want to just wreck crap, but the Astartes aren't there to just go in and blow crap up. They are used as a precise application of force. You're not going to be doing that with a hulking death machine, now are you?