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Right, first things first, this is not a nerf call. Nor am I claiming deep-striking is anything more than a pain in the ass strategy. I'm aware it is counterable. Also, the majority of my examples are from codex space marines or codex grey knights, as they are the ones I encounter more using such tactics.

Now onto business. I have noticed that deep striking happens allot these days. Rather than it being a cool thing the odd unit has, entire armies are being built around it. Thats all fine and dandy, but it means we need to look at certain aspects of it's use, in this case drop pods and their ilk arriving turn one with no chance of mishap, and why this is stupid.

You see, it is my firm belief that under no circumstance should it be possible to have a unit (or units) within your opponents deployment zone in the first turn. This is because it bassicly feths the flow of the battle right up the wrong 'un. Rather than engaging in sweeping battles across the field, executing tactics and the like, forces on the recieving end have to fanny about murdering the dreadnought/terminators/modrak or whatever thats running amok in thier deployment potentially, and this is the important bit, before they have even moved . The turn one is the problem here, were it turn two then I don't have all that much problem with it, it's a cool way of disrupting an enemy formation and throwing a spanner in the works, when it's the odd unit. When its the majority of the force it's still a little game fething, but the random nature of reserve rolls at least means there is risk involved.

The other problem is, at least as far as codex space marines/blood angels/space wolves/Grey nights is concerned, you can really mess up someone who is not prepared for such strategies before they can possibly react. A dreadnought showing up in turn one is going to get at least one killpoint for it's trouble, likely a points intensive one if the other guy has the gaul to be using tanks or pricey small units of infantry. It is possible to counter, but not without forknowlege of your opponents tactics, with deployment and/or list tailoring.

And I'm sorry, but any rule set that allows a strategy that needs forknowlege to counter effectively is wrong.

So to sum up, I don't like deep striking turn one. It ruins game flow and encourages list tailoring, rather than people fielding balanced forces or, god forbid, fun ones.

Mmm, I don't hate it as much as you do, but I basically agree. I never thought it made much sense, mainly, and you've articulated some of the reasons why. It just screws up the flow of the game.

I have to agree with the annoyance of them having a significantly lower chance of mishapping. Daemons are forced to put up with the risk that usually comes with it all the time. If it were up to me they would either be summoned by cultists(test to DS without mishap, if test fails some cultists die). Or simply get something like the drop pod in the form of a chaos shrine where they come out of it like the Monolith (perhaps was, not familiar with the new one); placed like infiltrators, but then having the Daemons only able to come out of them.

However you can somewhat mitigate the damage they can do by simply holding your units in reserve yourself or deploying in such a way as to limit their targets. They still need to be at least 1" away from enemy units (both the pod and then the unit themself when they disembark). While not always possible a smart deployment can lack the damage they can deal or even give their plan the middle finger.

How do you not know they are going to do it? They have to declare deep striking reserves. If it happens to be a non DA drop pod, half rounded up are coming in first turn. If they happen to be DA termies, same deal. You know exactly what is DSing and you can relatively predict what exactly they are going to drop out of the half they get.

With this knowledge, bubble wrap things. If you don't low that drop podding sternguard or dread with MM within 12" of the important goods, they just happen to be free kill points for you that shoot weak lascannons.

Not to mention if they go first you can always full reserve and watch the show.

This is probably one of the silliest things I've ever seen someone upset about. If they intend to drop more than one unit/pod, they are dumping a considerable amount of pts into that alpha strike, making it all the easier to counter and predict their strat.

In summary...you want them to stop using a set of tactics in favor of your tactics.

The only thing I don't understand is why Space Marines are the only codex's with pin-point accurate drops.

Sure some can get accurate drops with teleporter homers, but drop pods can land on anything and still be safe, not to mention don't require alternate units near the enemy to use.

Then they also have homers for teleportation and for deep striking in general.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:The only thing I don't understand is why Space Marines are the only codex's with pin-point accurate drops.

Sure some can get accurate drops with teleporter homers, but drop pods can land on anything and still be safe, not to mention don't require alternate units near the enemy to use.

So does the Trygon

Turn one deep striking is bad for 40k only insofar as it makes the armies that have it too weak. Drop Pod armies would be much stronger if not for Drop Pod Assault, which can be trivially countered by deploying one's forces in reserve. Against a skilled opponent, turn one Deep Striking is a weakness.

Your objection to Drop Pod assault is that someone who is unprepared for it (even though it is declared and is required to happen) will get wrecked by it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your objection to Drop Pod assault is that someone who is unprepared for it (even though it is declared and is required to happen) will get wrecked by it?

Shadox wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:The only thing I don't understand is why Space Marines are the only codex's with pin-point accurate drops.

Sure some can get accurate drops with teleporter homers, but drop pods can land on anything and still be safe, not to mention don't require alternate units near the enemy to use.

So does the Trygon

Ah right, I have forgotten the few in the Tyranid Codex.

I just can't agree, sorry.

This is a game built on learning. There is much more that will wreck you if you are not prepared for it than a DS army. For example, someone who has never faced a Catacomb command barge might be totally defeated by it's 'sweep' attack.

Part of the skill of 40k is looking at your opponents army list and anticipating what how they'll use it. then preparing for it.

Having t1 DS, all armies DSing and such like definitely varies the game and I think that's great.

Okay, As I stated in the OP, I don't mind deep striking. And I agree that there are counters, hell I use them. My point about the not preparred one is that I hate list tailoring, which is what a tactic that hits as hard as this can and early as the first turn encourages.

But I still maintain that it ruins game flow if there is close combat in turn one. Simply telling people to keep all there own stuff in reserve kind of implies that you kight as well skip the first turn anyway. And doing that (In my personal experience) leads to a game of who can roll the most reserve rolls when they want to.

...you know Dreadnoughts can't assault out of Deep Strike (unless you use very unbalanced Forge World rules), right? If a Deep Striking Dreadnought gets into assault on turn one, that's happening thanks to actions taken by the other player, not the owner of the Dreadnought. In fact, the only way for a Dreadnought to even pseudo-reliably get a first turn charge off has nothing to do with Deep Striking at all, but rather with the Stormraven Gunship-- a unit that is not considered particularly imposing at present!

But what would you do about Daemons? Have them slog all the way across the field, under fire the whole time? They're not exactly top tier as it is.

Saptilladerky wrote:How do you not know they are going to do it? They have to declare deep striking reserves. If it happens to be a non DA drop pod, half rounded up are coming in first turn. If they happen to be DA termies, same deal. You know exactly what is DSing and you can relatively predict what exactly they are going to drop out of the half they get.

With this knowledge, bubble wrap things. If you don't low that drop podding sternguard or dread with MM within 12" of the important goods, they just happen to be free kill points for you that shoot weak lascannons.

Not to mention if they go first you can always full reserve and watch the show.

This is probably one of the silliest things I've ever seen someone upset about. If they intend to drop more than one unit/pod, they are dumping a considerable amount of pts into that alpha strike, making it all the easier to counter and predict their strat.

In summary...you want them to stop using a set of tactics in favor of your tactics.

Here's a fun scenario. I lose the roll to see who goes and deploys first. He says I can. I deploy. He then declares his reserves. At what point to I get to deploy to counter? I havn't seen his list, wouldn't you agree that It would be foolish to deploy to counter one specific tactic that my opponent may or may not be using? If I go for a castle deployment I'm going to look bloody stupid when the pie plates he has land instead of drop pods.

So know, I don't feel it's silly. And I'm not upset, I just feel that the game is more fun when both guys have a chance to rock around the battle field doing stuff, rather than have a mash up in one guys deployment. As for it being a point sink, yeah It is. So are alot of things. Assualt pods containig dreadnoughts are often alot cheaper than the stuff they trash though. Which is all good, provided that the recipient has had at least a turn to do something about this possibility

Mr Mugguffins wrote:I havn't seen his list, wouldn't you agree that It would be foolish to deploy to counter one specific tactic that my opponent may or may not be using?

There's your problem. Generally speaking, you get to review someone's list before the game starts.

Fetterkey wrote:

Mr Mugguffins wrote:I havn't seen his list, wouldn't you agree that It would be foolish to deploy to counter one specific tactic that my opponent may or may not be using?

There's your problem. Generally speaking, you get to review someone's list before the game starts.

The three GW's Iv'e played in seem not to have a "Show your lists before fighting" policy. Quite the opposite.

Hmmm.....now you mention it one of my points is easily solved by list comparing. But the flow breaker (weather or not the deep strike is successful in wholesale murder) point still stands.

If he's going second, and declares he's deep striking everything, you get an entire turn of movement to set up deep strike traps/response deployment, pop smoke launchers, etc. He then gets half of his army on turn 1 (assuming he's an all-pod army), which you get to pounce on with your entire army.

If he's going first, and declares DS, you can set up a defensive formation as your initial deployment, or just go all Reserve yourself, and neuter his alpha strike entirely.

This thread feels like it's from 2005, when you rolled for first turn and when you couldn't just voluntarily Reserve everything, so pod armies were really pretty nasty. In 5th they're meh at best.

How is it list tayloring if I show up with the same drop army list no matter what you are using? Your objection seems to be to me dropping what units would do best against you from the list I already made...that is called tactics.

How dare your dastardly opponent try something that doesn't involve walking through the teeth of your fire!

I have Andre Maginot on line 1 for you...

Deep striking armies are just another type of army you need to learn to deal with. Keeps life interesting to lose once in a while (or in my case most of the time )

The game is horribly unbalanced if you don't show your list.
To not do so is madness......

Yeah, if they you don't know what's coming then turn 1 DSs are really powerful!

TBH, as annoying as Deep Striking can be, that's the entire point; to disrupt. It's nothing worth complaining about, though; in current meta, it's at best decently effective, and there are easy ways to counter it. Probably the last thing I'd complain about, at this point in time. :/

I 110% agree with the OP.

Space Marines get ATSKNF.
They can fight with 1 man left
They can DP anywhere they want with zero issues....

Xenos get FACKED.

Drop Pod armies do in fact ruin games of 40k.

Drop Pods FORCE a player to react. You cannot ignore that the enemy has them. Which means you HAVE to play a certain way or lose.

Playing 1 way is boring as hell.

The fact that you can simply drop an empty one if you dont go first is also ultra bullshyte... You should be dedicating the troops inside regardless of situation.

The argument that I can simply bubblewrap my stuff etc to me is moot. As again this is forcing me to play a certain way. I bubblewrap or I lose... not exactly the high tactical game I signed up to play.

I like to move my units arounds, fire a few rounds off, react to some armour coming up the middle etc... not

BAM here is my whole army deal with it or die.


Like I say alot in my posts.... FUN is the only thing I care about in 40k.

Playinig against a DP army simply is NOT FUN.

Most likely why Im pretty much dont with it after 20 odd years and im off to play WHFB... NO GK, No Drop Pods no super alpha strike turn 1 smoke shows.

Marine deep striking can be quite devastating, yes. But it's fluffy, they are heavily *trained* to rain down from the sky and then proceed to wreck face. Secondly, it's rather counterable, every point spent on stuffing things in drop pods is points not spent on more units and guns. If you know it's coming, you can beat it by bubble wrapping. Or if you're Grey Knights you can be a jerkweed and use warp quake and render the entire deep strike army useless.

For a classic example of why Deep Striking is rather overrated, look at the Daemons, a codex that if not used very well, will disintegrate under even moderate pressure. Despite being an army that can only ever deep strike, it has no way to mitigate mishaps, no way to improve it's deep strike scatter short of Kairos, nothing can assault after deep striking despite it being primarily a choppy army, and lacks anyway to improve it's reserve rolls. I've seen too many Daemons list try to deep strike in and end standing within rapid fire range and doing little more than get shot to pieces before accomplishing anything, or on the flipside end up scattering into some rocks and getting themselves all killed.

no way to improve it's deep strike scatter short of Kairos,

There is daemon icons, but they have to be there before the turn to activate....

But this is about space marines afterall, only they have the most accurate (short of nids one unit)

Descent of Angels, Drop Pods.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:The only thing I don't understand is why Space Marines are the only codex's with pin-point accurate drops.

Sure some can get accurate drops with teleporter homers, but drop pods can land on anything and still be safe, not to mention don't require alternate units near the enemy to use.

Because a 35p transport that costs £20 and can't move has to have some advantage!

I agree with the OP. Someone at GW decided that 5th Edition 40k should have all the units all over the board without any apparent reason. Hence why everything can deepstrike/outflank/flat out.
There's also an element of trying to sell drop pods to this. It's never nice when you see someone else using some powerful ability that's only there because GW want to sell a certain model. I'd imagine many people feel the same way about Vendettas to be fair.

I'm kind of surprised to see this, to be honest. I didn't know that this many people felt this way. I play a solid Drop Pod Assault list, and I am usually met with laughs of derision, not scowls of anger.

I'm just not able to see your claim that it "breaks the flow" of the game. I've seen other abilities that let you put something in your opponent's deployment zone first turn, including Daemons and anyone with the ability to Infiltrate. I don't really see that as "breaking the flow" of the game, but the concept seems pretty subjective.

The Drop Pod Assault is a powerful rule, it's true, but it's also the Achilles Heel of any army using it. Since it is not an option but a requirement, I am often screwed by it. There are a number of tactics to counter it, including multi-wave armies, where my Drop Pods descend on the unsuspecting "bait" units, only to be swept away by the reinforcements. There's the bubble-wrap strategy, which has already been discussed, and there's the put-your-whole-army-in-reserve strategy, which has also already been brought up. All three of these options have, in the past, left me cold and shivering in a dumpster with my hair in pigtails.

There is one of your points that, while I don't agree with you, I certainly feel your pain. 40k is a game where you are almost required to know not only your Codex, but every other Codex you could possibly run into. I think that;s pretty lame, but I don't think the rules should be re-written to accomodate that. Instead, I think that's what friendly games are for. The more you play, the more armies you will be exposed to, which is how you learn all these vicious strategies, as well as the best way to counter them.

If you'd like some more specifics on the ways people have fed me my own army guys in the past, and thus how you too might force feed little plastic men to your adversaries, toss me a PM and I'd be happy to regale you with sagas of my defeat.

Milisim wrote:Drop Pods FORCE a player to react. You cannot ignore that the enemy has them. Which means you HAVE to play a certain way or lose.

The argument that I can simply bubblewrap my stuff etc to me is moot. As again this is forcing me to play a certain way. I bubblewrap or I lose... not exactly the high tactical game I signed up to play.

Everything your opponent plays forces you to react/respond in certain ways. How you respond and react is what determines the outcome of the battle. So what if that reaction has to happen in your own deployment zone. You still would have had to respond to those units anyway, and you are still free to ignore them if you want and continue with your own battle plan and leave in them behind you. As a player you don't really get to dictate how the opponent plays their army and vice versa.

Not sure what game you are playing, but 40k isn't exactly a "high tactical" game as it stands.

Skriker

Jimsolo wrote:I'm kind of surprised to see this, to be honest. I didn't know that this many people felt this way. I play a solid Drop Pod Assault list, and I am usually met with laughs of derision, not scowls of anger.

Agreed. I actually prefer the Drop Pods in my Black Templar codex to the Space Marine ones, since I don't have to bring half of them on turn 1. Yay, randomness!