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Drew_Riggio




what's the explanation that you can't shoot if you're just 1 guy in CC? I'm not trying to troll, I just found it odd but it makes so much sense I don't understand why not?
   
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Drew_Riggio




Fafnir wrote:Because it's a game, and for the sake of simplifying things to make the game playable, some abstractions must be made.


That's what I expected. Oh well, I guess that's what house rules are for.
   
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope





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Because the guy is too distracted by the swirling melee to focus on shooting anything.

(In the close combat fluff they say guys that are in melee are shooting the enemy.)

So they are already shooting the enemy from a fluff perspective.

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Its just part of the rule, abstracted.

It doesnt make anymore sense than " I cant swing in CC because I might hit my own guy"

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It would make the game much more complicated then it already is. And then it would also have Fluff problems with certain factions.

It wouldn't make much sense for Eldar to fire into CC, each Eldar life is too precious to do that.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut





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Other than for game balance reasons, I think they justify it pretty well in the fluff. Nobody wants to purposely engage in friendly fire. For anyone who has emotions, there is a strong deterrence to shooting in such a way where you could kill one of your friends, and from a logistical standpoint, you wouldn't want to make friendly fire a habit either.

Really, it's just because of the fact that 40k divides the game turn up in the way it does that makes this a potential issue at all.




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Go ahead and house rule it... but you'll radically alter the game. Assault troops become very weak, and blocking tactics become almost ironclad. Tau will be much stronger and BA might as well stay home. In short, you'll unbalance and break the game.

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Numberless Necron Warrior





I can see the orks not caring along with most daemons, but it does really make it a lot more complicated.

Shooting into combat wouldn't be too hard, it would just slow down the game a bit though since any failed rolls to hit will have to be re-rolled against your own guys which isn't much fun if you roll them but tons of giggles for your enemy.

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Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





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From a realism standpoint, it kind of makes sense too.

You get the extra attack for using a pistol because they're made for close quarters in the first place.

But in the case of rifles and other more cumbersome weapons, you really can't properly use them when an enemy is within arm's reach. Especially when an enemy is close enough to knock your gun out of your hands while you're aiming.
In extreme close combat, you'd be far better off using the butt of your rifle as opposed to the barrel.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

You know, this is the type of thing that would make a good Order from a Company Commander, I.E.:

"They've Been Overrun!" - This order is issued in the same manner as all other orders EXCEPT that the unit is testing at -2 Ld.* The Company Commander picks any enemy unit engaged in combat and within his line of sight. The ordered unit then shoots at that unit, rolling to hit as normal. After rolling to hit but before rolling to wound (or penetrate), roll a Ballistic Skill test. If the test is failed, the hit is against the Friendly unit involved in the combat. If the test is passed, then the designated target Enemy unit is hit. Roll to wound (or penetrate) and save normally.
*If the Friendly unit engaged in combat is a Penal Legion squad, then this Leadership Modifier doesn't apply.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/05/13 05:56:14


 
   
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Emboldened Warlock




Duncan, B.C

LunaHound wrote:Its just part of the rule, abstracted.

It doesnt make anymore sense than " I cant swing in CC because I might hit my own guy"

Kharn will gladly swing in CC and hit his own guys. It's all part of being a berzerker.

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GimbleMuggernaught wrote:
LunaHound wrote:Its just part of the rule, abstracted.

It doesnt make anymore sense than " I cant swing in CC because I might hit my own guy"

Kharn will gladly swing in CC and hit his own guys. It's all part of being a berzerker.


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Unit1126PLL wrote:You know, this is the type of thing that would make a good Order from a Company Commander, I.E.:

"They've Been Overrun!" - This order is issued in the same manner as all other orders EXCEPT that the unit is testing at -2 Ld.* The Company Commander picks any enemy unit engaged in combat and within his line of sight. The ordered unit then shoots at that unit, rolling to hit as normal. After rolling to hit but before rolling to wound (or penetrate), roll a Ballistic Skill test. If the test is failed, the hit is against the Friendly unit involved in the combat. If the test is passed, then the designated target Enemy unit is hit. Roll to wound (or penetrate) and save normally.
*If the Friendly unit engaged in combat is a Penal Legion squad Or if the order is given to any Death Korps of Krieg unit, then this Leadership Modifier doesn't apply.


Fixed that

But I do like that order.

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Lobukia wrote:Go ahead and house rule it... but you'll radically alter the game. Assault troops become very weak, and blocking tactics become almost ironclad. Tau will be much stronger and BA might as well stay home. In short, you'll unbalance and break the game.


You say that like the game isn't already unbalanced and broken. It's humorous that you chose those two examples. Currently, Blood Angels are at the top of the power scale with being a pretty easy to run point and click army, while Tau are scraping the bottom being pretty much useless. Swiminging the pendulum the other way isn't breaking the game, it's changing the way it's broken.
   
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-Loki- wrote:
Lobukia wrote:Go ahead and house rule it... but you'll radically alter the game. Assault troops become very weak, and blocking tactics become almost ironclad. Tau will be much stronger and BA might as well stay home. In short, you'll unbalance and break the game.


You say that like the game isn't already unbalanced and broken. It's humorous that you chose those two examples. Currently, Blood Angels are at the top of the power scale with being a pretty easy to run point and click army, while Tau are scraping the bottom being pretty much useless. Swiminging the pendulum the other way isn't breaking the game, it's changing the way it's broken.


Tau is bad because their codex is ancient. 40k is not a balanced game, but it's not a broken game. However, making so you can shoot into close combat WILL break the game. Right now both Assaulting and Shooting is strong. If you house rule this, assaulting will be useless.

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Dakka Veteran




2nd edition had rules for shooting into CC. IIRC all hits were randomized between all participants.

But if you houserule it, do take into account how it will affect the balance of CC vs Shooting. And I'd advise you to randomize hits between CC participants to make sure it would be actual tradeoff.
   
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Flashy Flashgitz






I've always thought Tyranids should be able to shoot into CC. It's all biomass anyways. Also CSM because that's how they roll. And also Orks because it's Orky. But yeah it'd probably end up being horribily unbalanced.

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The last bit exactly. Look in the proposed rule forum for the number of times it's bee suggested, and what happens the few times it's actually tested in game. You tend to end up with the strategy du jour being tying a unit up with a cheap squad, and then unloading everything you have into themwhile they're helpless.

For those who complain about not being able to fire into cc is unrealistic, how about having squads in every army whose sole purpose is to run into cc so that hey can be shot at?

 
   
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Been Around the Block




Fafnir wrote:From a realism standpoint, it kind of makes sense too.

You get the extra attack for using a pistol because they're made for close quarters in the first place.

But in the case of rifles and other more cumbersome weapons, you really can't properly use them when an enemy is within arm's reach. Especially when an enemy is close enough to knock your gun out of your hands while you're aiming.
In extreme close combat, you'd be far better off using the butt of your rifle as opposed to the barrel.

WTF? I would like to have a word or two with the military instructor who is responsible for your training.
LordTyphus wrote:
what's the explanation that you can't shoot in CC?

There are no other logical reasons for this than simplifying the game and favouring close combat units. Its about the same as why krak grenades deal zero damage to gretchins only scaring them a bit, but can destroy an rhino.


   
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on the forum. Obviously

And to represent the firer not wanting to splatter his own guys, and to keep the game balanced.

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Drew_Riggio




I'm not sure how 1 model surrounded by enemies shooting his weapon in CC is OP or gamebreaking but whatever. The guy would be alone as I stated in the OP "what's the explanation that you can't shoot if you're just 1 guy in CC". And for the argument "Rifles would be unwieldily to fire when surrounded" it's fairly easy to hipfire which wouldn't be as inaccurate as a regular guy hipfiring, thee are soliders raised to kill after all(Which if the 6th ed. rumors are true we get something like this in the form of BS1 shooting after charge is confirmed), I guess only assault weapons should get this if the whole "unwieldily" thing get's too debatable.

And once more, let me clarify the "shooting in CC" scenario. Unit has 5 guys, unit get's assaulted, unit loses 4 guys, because this 1 man is alone if he were to fire his gun he'd have no risk of killing his own men as they are already dead, fires weapon for CC attack.
While some units would always take a CC attack over shooting if you have something with equally powerful melee and shooting or a weapon and gun with different special rules it could lead to some interesting outcomes.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/05/13 19:04:54


 
   
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LordTyphus wrote:I'm not sure how 1 model surrounded by enemies shooting his weapon in CC is OP or gamebreaking but whatever. The guy would be alone as I stated in the OP "what's the explanation that you can't shoot if you're just 1 guy in CC"


Wait, I'm confused.
Do you mean an external squad firing into combat?
Or the participants of close combat fight firing their weapons?

The answer for the second one is to represent that they are too busy trying not to get cut in half to aim and shoot with their guns. That, and they get a bonus attack for having a pistol, which to represent them firing away at the enemy.

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Drew_Riggio




CthuluIsSpy wrote:
LordTyphus wrote:I'm not sure how 1 model surrounded by enemies shooting his weapon in CC is OP or gamebreaking but whatever. The guy would be alone as I stated in the OP "what's the explanation that you can't shoot if you're just 1 guy in CC"


Wait, I'm confused.
Do you mean an external squad firing into combat?
Or the participants of close combat fight firing their weapons?

The answer for the second one is to represent that they are too busy trying not to get cut in half to aim and shoot with their guns. That, and they get a bonus attack for having a pistol, which to represent them firing away at the enemy.


2nd, I may be stupid but I'm not stupid enough to suggest game wide "shooting at units in CC". I always figured it's be about the same amount of effort to raise and accurately swing a weapon than it'd be to raise and pull the trigger. I always thought the whole "pistol" thing was either 1. More mobility as they're not carrying a big rifle or 2. Pistol whipping
   
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LordTyphus wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
LordTyphus wrote:I'm not sure how 1 model surrounded by enemies shooting his weapon in CC is OP or gamebreaking but whatever. The guy would be alone as I stated in the OP "what's the explanation that you can't shoot if you're just 1 guy in CC"


Wait, I'm confused.
Do you mean an external squad firing into combat?
Or the participants of close combat fight firing their weapons?

The answer for the second one is to represent that they are too busy trying not to get cut in half to aim and shoot with their guns. That, and they get a bonus attack for having a pistol, which to represent them firing away at the enemy.


2nd, I may be stupid but I'm not stupid enough to suggest game wide "shooting at units in CC". I always figured it's be about the same amount of effort to raise and accurately swing a weapon than it'd be to raise and pull the trigger. I always thought the whole "pistol" thing was either 1. More mobility as they're not carrying a big rifle or 2. Pistol whipping


Its not just pulling the trigger...you still have to aim. Yes, the enemy is in close range, but its still possible to miss because, you know, he's trying to kill the poor sod, and he'll be moving around and dodging and crap. Ever played S.t.a.l.k.e.r or Condemned? Its a bit like that.

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Been Around the Block




CthuluIsSpy wrote:Its not just pulling the trigger...you still have to aim. Yes, the enemy is in close range, but its still possible to miss because, you know, he's trying to kill the poor sod, and he'll be moving around and dodging and crap. Ever played S.t.a.l.k.e.r or Condemned? Its a bit like that.

You don't have to aim at targets that are like 5 meters away or less. You basically point the barrel in the direction of the target and pull the trigger. In real life its easier to hit targets that are close to you with real guns than targets that are close to you in FPS games.
( Or I suck at FPS games. )

Portugal Jones wrote:
For those who complain about not being able to fire into cc is unrealistic, how about having squads in every army whose sole purpose is to run into cc so that hey can be shot at?

If the rules were more realistic the unit that gets assaulted would also get an extra firing phase at the assaulting unit. Of course there could be extra rules like units that use smoke grenades get an cover save that however does not apply for grenades that actually deal some damage.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/13 19:40:44


 
   
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OT, Because it's considered bad form to kill your own troops...with your own artillery?
As said, back in 2nd edition you could, there were no rules against it, it was how ever fround apon and any comander willing to bombard his own troops is some one you really wouldn't like on your side in a dubbles match.

Then again if its a foot guard army commander then,
"..I see bravo platoon is being over run down there...Send to artilery command...You heard right, fire on bravos location...Send to Hotel platoon, they are to move up after the shelling has stopped and clear out any thing still breathing and that is not human..."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/13 20:49:18


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Safor wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Its not just pulling the trigger...you still have to aim. Yes, the enemy is in close range, but its still possible to miss because, you know, he's trying to kill the poor sod, and he'll be moving around and dodging and crap. Ever played S.t.a.l.k.e.r or Condemned? Its a bit like that.

You don't have to aim at targets that are like 5 meters away or less. You basically point the barrel in the direction of the target and pull the trigger. In real life its easier to hit targets that are close to you with real guns than targets that are close to you in FPS games.
( Or I suck at FPS games. )



Hmm you do have a point there.
Still, the fact that the target will be moving and trying to hit you does make things a bit harder.

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Ribon Fox wrote:OT, Because it's considered bad form to kill your own troops...with your own artillery?
As said, back in 2nd edition you could, there were no rules against it, it was how ever fround apon and any comander willing to bombard his own troops is some one you really wouldn't like on your side in a dubbles match.

Then again if its a foot guard army commander then,
"..I see bravo platoon is being over run down there...Send to artilery command...You heard right, fire on bravos location...Send to Hotel platoon, they are to move up after the shelling has stopped and clear out any thing still breathing and that is not human..."

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Drew_Riggio




Another point which was brought up at my FLGS was when models in combat can't attack (i.e. 3 inches away from model in b2b) should you be able to shoot those stragglers? I know the rules say you can't but would you guys accept this in the new rule set?
   
 
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