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clively wrote:Try this at home with a friend.

Get a short piece of wood (or foam) that would be about the size of a rifle or even a "heavy" weapon. Not the size of a pistol.

Have a friend stand about 1 foot away.

Tell said friend to punch you in the face.

See if you can raise that "rifle", point it and "shoot" at him before he smacks you. Again, do this while using a piece of wood and NOT A REAL GUN.

I think you'll find that your nose will be bloodied long before you can bring the "weapon" to bear.

As an option, tell said friend to jump on you and roll around on the ground. See if that "rifle" is any use beyond being a club.

After a couple of attempts I'm sure you'll understand why non-pistol weapons are basically useless in close combat.

Yes, but unless your friend is a genetically perfect killing tool of what could be left of a human you couldn't portray the situation of 40k very well. At 1 foot you wouldn't even have to aim just pull the trigger. I understand your point it just seems hyperbole

clively wrote:Try this at home with a friend.

Get a short piece of wood (or foam) that would be about the size of a rifle or even a "heavy" weapon. Not the size of a pistol.

Have a friend stand about 1 foot away.

Tell said friend to punch you in the face.

See if you can raise that "rifle", point it and "shoot" at him before he smacks you. Again, do this while using a piece of wood and NOT A REAL GUN.

I think you'll find that your nose will be bloodied long before you can bring the "weapon" to bear.

As an option, tell said friend to jump on you and roll around on the ground. See if that "rifle" is any use beyond being a club.

After a couple of attempts I'm sure you'll understand why non-pistol weapons are basically useless in close combat.

Now here's another experiment.

Have your friend stand 50m away (about 1/4 the maximum accurate range of a modern rifle, corresponding to 6" assault range vs 24" rifle range) and tell him to punch you in the face.

See if you can raise that "rifle," point it and "shoot" at him before he smacks you. Again, do this while using a piece of wood and not a real gun.

I think you'll find that you have time to empty the magazine before he covers 50 meters.

As an option, tell said friend to put on body armor and carry a rifle and sword and pistol, just for added weight. See if he can even make it 50m without being exhausted at the end.

After a couple of attempts, I'm sure you'll understand why Defensive Fire is necessary in 40K.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

clively wrote:Try this at home with a friend.

Get a short piece of wood (or foam) that would be about the size of a rifle or even a "heavy" weapon. Not the size of a pistol.

Have a friend stand about 1 foot away.

Tell said friend to punch you in the face.

See if you can raise that "rifle", point it and "shoot" at him before he smacks you. Again, do this while using a piece of wood and NOT A REAL GUN.

I think you'll find that your nose will be bloodied long before you can bring the "weapon" to bear.

As an option, tell said friend to jump on you and roll around on the ground. See if that "rifle" is any use beyond being a club.

After a couple of attempts I'm sure you'll understand why non-pistol weapons are basically useless in close combat.

Now here's another experiment.

Have your friend stand 50m away (about 1/4 the maximum accurate range of a modern rifle, corresponding to 6" assault range vs 24" rifle range) and tell him to punch you in the face.

See if you can raise that "rifle," point it and "shoot" at him before he smacks you. Again, do this while using a piece of wood and not a real gun.

I think you'll find that you have time to empty the magazine before he covers 50 meters.

As an option, tell said friend to put on body armor and carry a rifle and sword and pistol, just for added weight. See if he can even make it 50m without being exhausted at the end.

After a couple of attempts, I'm sure you'll understand why Defensive Fire is necessary in 40K.

Here's another experiment - Give your friend a jet pack, and have him suddenly hurtle towards you at high speeds.
Try to see how many times you can shoot him before he crashes into you.



That aside, I do think overwatch would be a good addition to the game. Not defensive fire, as WHFB already has that, and it would be difficult to implement with the current movement rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordTyphus wrote:

clively wrote:Try this at home with a friend.

Get a short piece of wood (or foam) that would be about the size of a rifle or even a "heavy" weapon. Not the size of a pistol.

Have a friend stand about 1 foot away.

Tell said friend to punch you in the face.

See if you can raise that "rifle", point it and "shoot" at him before he smacks you. Again, do this while using a piece of wood and NOT A REAL GUN.

I think you'll find that your nose will be bloodied long before you can bring the "weapon" to bear.

As an option, tell said friend to jump on you and roll around on the ground. See if that "rifle" is any use beyond being a club.

After a couple of attempts I'm sure you'll understand why non-pistol weapons are basically useless in close combat.

Yes, but unless your friend is a genetically perfect killing tool of what could be left of a human you couldn't portray the situation of 40k very well. At 1 foot you wouldn't even have to aim just pull the trigger. I understand your point it just seems hyperbole

Its not aiming that's the problem. Its raising the damned weapon to begin with.

clively wrote:Try this at home with a friend...
After a couple of attempts I'm sure you'll understand why non-pistol weapons are basically useless in close combat.

The rules were not written to be "Real World" logical.

The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle.

What would happen in the real world has nothing to do with the RAW.

Also a rifle isn't exactly useless in close combat, watch some of these moves.

More importantly, no one was talking about firing whilst in combat, but about outsiders firing into a combat.

Kaldor wrote:More importantly, no one was talking about firing whilst in combat, but about outsiders firing into a combat.

Actually, this whole thread was intended to discuss "Firing in Combat", not the latter which many people are assuming. Apparently I didn't make my posts clear enough on the subject. But I did briefly talk about firing at units in combat that aren't on the CC fighting zone (3 inches away from model in B2B), but that aside it's mainly for the first point

LordTyphus wrote:

Kaldor wrote:More importantly, no one was talking about firing whilst in combat, but about outsiders firing into a combat.

Actually, this whole thread was intended to discuss "Firing in Combat", not the latter which many people are assuming. Apparently I didn't make my posts clear enough on the subject. But I did briefly talk about firing at units in combat that aren't on the CC fighting zone (3 inches away from model in B2B), but that aside it's mainly for the first point

Oh.

But, that's silly. The rulebook itself indicates that close combat is a swirling melee with models shooting and fighting in close quarters. We don't use weapons stats in close combat because that'd be too complicated and it wouldn't lend any realism to the game.

Easy solution game wise as to justify shooting into a combat.

When firing into close combat all shots ALWAYS count as BS1 irregardless of other modifiers. Blast, and template weapons can not be used. Rolls of a 1 hit friendly models. 'Gets hot' weapons still over heat on a roll of a 1 as well as hit the friendly model. (They were too worried about friendly fire that they over charged the weapon to the point of over heating and had to shoot!)

Makes it a bit more...problematic to shoot into a combat, but sometimes worth the risk.

Kaldor wrote:

LordTyphus wrote:

Kaldor wrote:More importantly, no one was talking about firing whilst in combat, but about outsiders firing into a combat.

Actually, this whole thread was intended to discuss "Firing in Combat", not the latter which many people are assuming. Apparently I didn't make my posts clear enough on the subject. But I did briefly talk about firing at units in combat that aren't on the CC fighting zone (3 inches away from model in B2B), but that aside it's mainly for the first point

Oh.

But, that's silly. The rulebook itself indicates that close combat is a swirling melee with models shooting and fighting in close quarters. We don't use weapons stats in close combat because that'd be too complicated and it wouldn't lend any realism to the game.

Hm, I forgot about that description, as for realism I'd disagree though, I'd trust a bolter at point blank over a combat knife any day, when it comes to prep time raising and swinging a knife wouldn't be much faster than pointing the barrel in the enemies general direction and pulling the trigger. People also bring up hitting models but I was thinking when there are no friendly models to hit, kinda like "Well, I'm all that's left, time to go guns blazing"

LordTyphus wrote: as for realism I'd disagree though, I'd trust a bolter at point blank over a combat knife any day, when it comes to prep time raising and swinging a knife wouldn't be much faster than pointing the barrel in the enemies general direction and pulling the trigger. People also bring up hitting models but I was thinking when there are no friendly models to hit, kinda like "Well, I'm all that's left, time to go guns blazing"

Firstly, a close combat is entirely unpredictable. A rifle might be just as easy to use, but the combat could be between combatants rolling in the mud wrestling with each other.

Secondly, the close combat attacks already represent the use of small arms while in close combat. That S3 attack a Guardsman gets could be his combat knife, or his pistol or lasgun. The same for any model, really.

Lobukia wrote:Go ahead and house rule it... but you'll radically alter the game. Assault troops become very weak, and blocking tactics become almost ironclad. Tau will be much stronger and BA might as well stay home. In short, you'll unbalance and break the game.

Unbalancing and breaking the game? Seriously?
He's talking about a single guy remaining in close combat who is then able to shoot because there are no buddies around he may hit.
How often does that even happen? And how likely is it that he does any serious damage.
It's not like he is talking about whole squads firing everything they have in the enemy lines during close combat. I'd agree that this may change the balance, but one single guy?