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I always like the 2nd E shooting into cc rules. I don't want them back, I just liked them back in the day.

LordTyphus wrote:what's the explanation that you can't shoot if you're just 1 guy in CC? I'm not trying to troll, I just found it odd but it makes so much sense I don't understand why not?

You can't shoot into combat because it's an absurdly difficult rule to balance. So they just skipped it.

Grey Templar wrote:It would make the game much more complicated then it already is. And then it would also have Fluff problems with certain factions.

It wouldn't make much sense for Eldar to fire into CC, each Eldar life is too precious to do that.

It wouldn't take much to change the rule. Say, for example "every miss automatically hits and wounds an allied model in the cc." Based on the military truism that incoming friendly fire is even more accurate than enemy fire.

And that gives a decided advantage to armies with high BS.

Marines could fire into combat with little risk due to good BS and good armor, orks on the other hand would totally screw their own side.

Don't Skaven in Warhammer fantasy have the ability to fire at their own troops in CC?

I know fantasy isn't shooting oriented, so it probably isn't as powerful a rule, but for Tyranids it makes sense. They are a CC oriented army with cheap troops, so for them shooting into combat and killing their own isn't a big deal. Especially when you've got your gargoyals tarpitted by a Dread and you want to put an impaler spear through it's head....

Nalathani wrote:Don't Skaven in Warhammer fantasy have the ability to fire at their own troops in CC?

Only Skavenslaves IIRC...
I always wondered if something like that would be implemented...
Maybe for Nids and Orks, anything in CC with rippers and Grotz can still be fired on with a risk of hitting your troops. Any casualties caused causes a Ld test at -1 for each casualty...

Marzillius wrote:Tau is bad because their codex is ancient. 40k is not a balanced game, but it's not a broken game. However, making so you can shoot into close combat WILL break the game. Right now both Assaulting and Shooting is strong. If you house rule this, assaulting will be useless.

Why will assaulting be useless? You don't assault for the pure fact that you cannot be shot at in melee. You assault to kill the enemy. We've house ruled this for years, where Eldar wouldn't even consider it, but Chaos, Orks and Daemons wouldn't even bat an eye. As for the Tau if it is more important for the greater good, then yes they could, and even Imperial forces would do so in an extreme situation, especially if it is marines realizing that an IG line is about to be overrun they would consider the IG lost anyway and just open up.

When doing it you compare numbers on each side and then roll for each hit to determine which unit gets hit. 1 of your guys fighting 2 of the enemy, then you hit your own guy on a 1-2 and an enemy 4-6. Pretty simple and it hasn't killed assaults in our games in the least. Assaults still happen, they still kill enemies, but an assault doesn't become free cover against anything. It is also situational. In a fight where a smaller enemy squad attacks you (say 5 banshees charge 10 boyz), you are more likely to hit your own boyz than the banshees, so you aren't going to do it. In a fight where the squads are the same size (10 dire avengers charge your 10 boyz), you have an even chance of hitting you own forces so you will only do this in an extreme case. The only time the decision would be easy is if one of your units is being swarmed by something much larger (5 scouts were charged by 20 boyz because you forgot to move them). In this case there is a 4 to 1 ratio and the marines shooting into the combat statistically makes sense. Yes you may kill some of the scouts with your shooting, but the scouts are going to be overrun anyway by the 20boyz and it is silly for small scout unit to make it impossible to bring more weapons to bear on the threat of 20 boyz in your gun line. Also some units, like Harlequins are such potent melee combatants that it definitely makes sense to me to push a sacrificial unit into melee with them and just drop tons of ordnance on the space while they are caught up in their fighting.

Skriker

Skriker wrote:Why will assaulting be useless? You don't assault for the pure fact that you cannot be shot at in melee.

You kinda do sometimes...
If you're under the threat of ending a turn under the guns of a IG gunline most people would choose to end their turn with as many units in CC as possible so they can't be shot at...

Sir, a greater deamon of the arch-enemy has appeared and is butchering our troops en masse! Shall we engage it with out long-range fire support?
No, Hopkins...you may not care about those conscripts trying to bayonet it to death, but by god we just can't risk their lives trying to take that thing down.
HOLD YOUR FIRE! We shall wait for it to get into combat with the rest of our lines first.


Seriously though, this game either needs overwatch or shooting into combat. Why wouldn't I shoot a demon prince just because there's a single conscript still engaged with it?
There is nothing more annoying than a monsterous creature surrounded by 12 of my plasma guns...except the squad it charged last round got snake eyes, so not only can I not kill it, I've also lost another squad since it kills off the rest at the bottom of my turn, then charges again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

purplefood wrote:

Skriker wrote:Why will assaulting be useless? You don't assault for the pure fact that you cannot be shot at in melee.

You kinda do sometimes...
If you're under the threat of ending a turn under the guns of a IG gunline most people would choose to end their turn with as many units in CC as possible so they can't be shot at...

Yup. Opponents are always sure to multi-charge with a single model so they know there's a good chance I'll pass my leadership.
So it goes
Their turn - wipe out the main unit they assaulted, do little/nothing against secondary unit
My turn - the rest of their unit moves in and kills the secondary unit
Their turn - charge again.

I could imagine overwatch being a very nice addition to the game...
Would give the primarily ranged armies a touch more power.

Overwatch is definitly something that could be implimented.

I think it would work as a mechanisim where if a unit doesn't move or shoot in its turn then on the opposing player turn it may shoot against the first enemy unit that declares a charge against it in the shooting phase or, if it is not charged at all, it may shoot at the closest visable enemy unit within range.

Similer to Stand and Shoot in Fantesy.

It is a bit frustrating not to be able to shoot into combat. My local group plays lots and lots of doubles games, and my armor is constantly frustrated in its shooting because of close combat.

I.E. my eldar buddy's fire-dragons get charged by some tactical marines, and while they slowly die off, my tank sits there, guns primed and turret loaded, waiting politely for the marines to finish butchering my ally and come after it.

It's a real break in the suspension of disbelief.

Joey wrote:Yup. Opponents are always sure to multi-charge with a single model so they know there's a good chance I'll pass my leadership.
So it goes
Their turn - wipe out the main unit they assaulted, do little/nothing against secondary unit
My turn - the rest of their unit moves in and kills the secondary unit
Their turn - charge again.

The underlined part is not legal.

Single models can not Multi-Assault.

I think he meant to charge the initial target squad and also to multi-charge a weakened enemy squad(1-2 models)

Allocate no attacks to the remnant squad and kill the initial target.

Then they kill the remnant in your assault phase and can charge a new target in their next turn.


Its a smart tactic to use. You want a CC unit in CC, so if you can maximize its time in CC you will do much better.

Right, but you can't multi charge with a single model.

Mordiggian wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:It would make the game much more complicated then it already is. And then it would also have Fluff problems with certain factions.

It wouldn't make much sense for Eldar to fire into CC, each Eldar life is too precious to do that.

It wouldn't take much to change the rule. Say, for example "every miss automatically hits and wounds an allied model in the cc." Based on the military truism that incoming friendly fire is even more accurate than enemy fire.

Yeah... if you put a couple seconds of thought into that, you'd see why it's silly and doesn't work, and why despite literally a decade of people trying to make their own rules to allow it, no one has ever come up with a workable system.

In the big version of the rule book there is a set of rules for firing into a close combat that doesn't involve your troops. The scenario is called broken alliance.

Roughly speaking, you shoot and then roll dice on each hit. 4+ is the target unit, otherwise you hit the other guys. If you really want to, go ahead and steal that.

In a game without modifiers, it would just be too complex for GW to come up with a rule that balances it.

Infinity, for example, allows shooting into cc.
It uses a -6 to-hit modifier for it (d20 based and stats go from 10-17 usually).
If you hit, you hit the enemy - but if you miss by between 1 and 6, you hit your own guy, and if by more than that, you miss completely.

rigeld2 wrote:Right, but you can't multi charge with a single model.

Of course you can, as long as he remains in coherency with the rest of his squad.

Joey wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Right, but you can't multi charge with a single model.

Of course you can, as long as he remains in coherency with the rest of his squad.

A single model does not have a squad.

you are talking about a Squad Multi-charging. and that is okay.

you originally said

Joey wrote:multi-charge with a single model

Which we replied a Single model can not multi-charge.

If you were talking about one model from a unit, then that is allowed, but you should have made that clear.

Joey wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Right, but you can't multi charge with a single model.

Of course you can, as long as he remains in coherency with the rest of his squad.

Poor wording on your part - but even then, if your opponent wins combat by 6 (for example) every one of your units is testing at -6 - not just the one that he primarily charges.

DeathReaper wrote:

Joey wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Right, but you can't multi charge with a single model.

Of course you can, as long as he remains in coherency with the rest of his squad.

A single model does not have a squad.

you are talking about a Squad Multi-charging. and that is okay.

you originally said

Joey wrote:multi-charge with a single model

Which we replied a Single model can not multi-charge.

If you were talking about one model from a unit, then that is allowed, but you should have made that clear.

I said a single model can multi-charge, which it can. You assumed I meant "A single model unit" because you felt like it, in order to sound authoritive on the rules.
A lot of people deliberately mis-interprit what other people say in order to make bold, imperative statements. It's bad enough on YMDC but continuing to do it in the more civilised parts of the forums is nothing short of trolling, please do not do so again.

Joey wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Joey wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Right, but you can't multi charge with a single model.

Of course you can, as long as he remains in coherency with the rest of his squad.

A single model does not have a squad.

you are talking about a Squad Multi-charging. and that is okay.

you originally said

Joey wrote:multi-charge with a single model

Which we replied a Single model can not multi-charge.

If you were talking about one model from a unit, then that is allowed, but you should have made that clear.

I said a single model can multi-charge, which it can. You assumed I meant "A single model unit" because you felt like it, in order to sound authoritive on the rules.
A lot of people deliberately mis-interprit what other people say in order to make bold, imperative statements. It's bad enough on YMDC but continuing to do it in the more civilised parts of the forums is nothing short of trolling, please do not do so again.

Nice accusation. He's obviously not the only one that did it.
It's not possible that your word choice was poor - not at all.

Joey wrote:I said a single model can multi-charge, which it can. You assumed I meant "A single model unit" because you felt like it, in order to sound authoritive on the rules.
A lot of people deliberately mis-interprit what other people say in order to make bold, imperative statements. It's bad enough on YMDC but continuing to do it in the more civilised parts of the forums is nothing short of trolling, please do not do so again.

Rules for declaring an assault is the first model in the assaulting unit must move into contact with the closest model in the unit it is assaulting using the shortest possible route. Even if there is an enemy model from a second nemy unit close enough to the model you can legally assault, it's a one in a million chance that you're going to be in the right position to hit both at the same time.

While it's technically possible, the chance to do so is pretty much never going to come up unless you start fudging the rules.

-Loki- wrote:

Joey wrote:I said a single model can multi-charge, which it can. You assumed I meant "A single model unit" because you felt like it, in order to sound authoritive on the rules.
A lot of people deliberately mis-interprit what other people say in order to make bold, imperative statements. It's bad enough on YMDC but continuing to do it in the more civilised parts of the forums is nothing short of trolling, please do not do so again.

Rules for declaring an assault is the first model in the assaulting unit must move into contact with the closest model in the unit it is assaulting. Even if there is an enemy model from a second nemy unit close enough to the model you can legally assault, it's a one in a million chance that you're going to be in the right position to hit both at the same time.

While it's technically possible, the chance to do so is pretty much never going to come up unless you start fudging the rules.

The first model doesn't have to be the one to initiate the multi assault - he can wait till model 4 or 5 or later if he wants.
Joey was saying one model out of a squad charges a second unit, and the first unit gets wiped off the table.
I just don't get why the second unit isn't also falling back.

rigeld2 wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

Joey wrote:I said a single model can multi-charge, which it can. You assumed I meant "A single model unit" because you felt like it, in order to sound authoritive on the rules.
A lot of people deliberately mis-interprit what other people say in order to make bold, imperative statements. It's bad enough on YMDC but continuing to do it in the more civilised parts of the forums is nothing short of trolling, please do not do so again.

Rules for declaring an assault is the first model in the assaulting unit must move into contact with the closest model in the unit it is assaulting. Even if there is an enemy model from a second nemy unit close enough to the model you can legally assault, it's a one in a million chance that you're going to be in the right position to hit both at the same time.

While it's technically possible, the chance to do so is pretty much never going to come up unless you start fudging the rules.

The first model doesn't have to be the one to initiate the multi assault - he can wait till model 4 or 5 or later if he wants.
Joey was saying one model out of a squad charges a second unit, and the first unit gets wiped off the table.
I just don't get why the second unit isn't also falling back.

Because it's a walker/stubborn/fearless. Plenty of opportunities when multi-charging with a single model can be advantageous.

Normally a multi charge is used (by me anyway) to nuke multiple enemy units.

I guess i just don't normally move in a way thatd let me do that.... Or my opponent doesn't normally put a roadblock near a tasty target.

rigeld2 wrote:Nice accusation. He's obviously not the only one that did it.
It's not possible that your word choice was poor - not at all.

Exactly Rig.

@Joey, Thanks for accusing us of "deliberately mis-interprit what other people say in order to make bold, imperative statements. It's bad enough on YMDC but continuing to do it in the more civilised parts of the forums is nothing short of trolling, please do not do so again."

I will do it when I see rules that are being broken, because I like to help people understand the way the rules are written, and I will keep on doing it.

Joey wrote:Because it's a walker/stubborn/fearless. Plenty of opportunities when multi-charging with a single model can be advantageous.

Hey, waitaminnit. You guys are acting as if this is some sort of rare thing. It's a standard tactic.

I was going to mention in this thread how common attacking into CC can be, most Necron attacks have the potential at least to go into CC. Monolith's eternity gate, Death Rays, CCB sweeps, my Imotekh's goofy one-shot staff. But by far the most common "attack into CC" is actually a Tesla Destructor splash. Most lists have a bunch of these, and each time they fire there's a 50% chance they'll "splash" into units within 6" - which often backfires in an ugly way, btw. But the most common "tarpitted" Necron unit is the scarab swarm, and a S5 Tesla attack that affects both it and it's opponent is usually a net win.

But towards multi-assaulting for cover, this doesn't come up once a game, it often comes up two or three times a *turn* with scarab farms or wraithwings. I don't run wraiths, but I've a full 9 spyder complement so a 20 scarab unit is average. The unit footprint is huge (two-deep spread out for blast avoidance is some 30") and the charge range is enormous with spyder support (27" or so max), so the potential "swept" area of the board can be up to a quarter of the table or more - a 30 base scarab unit towards turn 6 or 7 isn't that unusual.

In this case, you not only want to multi-assault a vehicle along with a foot unit, rule of thumb is that if you can't - don't attack. If you don't peel one scarab base off to contact a foot unit, you'll often die the next turn from ID fire due to the scarab's T3. And of course the issue of the primary target failing its morale check doesn't come up with a vehicle - if things go as planned, it'll turn into a nice cover-providing wreck instead.

Browsing Stelek's site, one of his primary anti-scarab tactis is "bait them out of cover". You simply do not attack single transports without nearby dismounted infantry. (Unless they're carrying a pricey full-size unit of Purifiers or some such, which you can auto-kill by blocking all egress from the crater except for three Purifier models, that's worth it.) And when you do, a lot of times you have to use the Necron attack-into-melee (usually w/a CCB, which isn't fire but has the same effect - no return attack) to try to break them free again.

Anyway, Joey, I knew exactly what you were saying, do it every single game. Standard tactic.

Edit: I got 4/50% overload on Tesla - for every four people within 6", there's a 50% chance one will get hit by a splash. Of course the splash happens always.

Try this at home with a friend.

Get a short piece of wood (or foam) that would be about the size of a rifle or even a "heavy" weapon. Not the size of a pistol.

Have a friend stand about 1 foot away.

Tell said friend to punch you in the face.

See if you can raise that "rifle", point it and "shoot" at him before he smacks you. Again, do this while using a piece of wood and NOT A REAL GUN.

I think you'll find that your nose will be bloodied long before you can bring the "weapon" to bear.

As an option, tell said friend to jump on you and roll around on the ground. See if that "rifle" is any use beyond being a club.

After a couple of attempts I'm sure you'll understand why non-pistol weapons are basically useless in close combat.