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So something that happened to me in a game a few months ago has really been bothering me and I need some input from the community on whether what happened is standard operating procedure or stretching rules to far.

The situation:
My IG vs Necrons. Scarabs are center of the table in a multi story ruin (previously agreed area terrain) with a solid wall between me and the scarabs.

Player moved scarabs in the ruin in such a way that I had no LOS (scarabs are small). I had to ignore them on my turn as I had no LOS, right?
Then the necron player moved them right through the wall and assaulted my troops. I was unaware at the time models could move through a wall since I hadn't played since 2nd edition.
This seems cheesy to me since if I can't see them because of a wall it is basically an invincible shield. Is this true? Or can I target troops in area terrain even if they have a solid wall between us?

It's true. It's stated in the rulebook that Beasts move like infantry (pg. 54), meaning that they are subject to having to take difficult terrain tests (the movement phase states it describes how infantry moves in the bolded section of pg. 11), and that models can move through walls when they're moving via a difficult terrain test (pg. 14).

I recall the player rotated that piece of terrain before we started also. Well now I know and knowing is half the battle!

I had this same type of thing happen to me. I got tank shocked by a battlewagon through terrain.

To answer your question about whether or not you can shoot em...You measure by true line of sight :( So that means if you couldnt see them you cant hit them :(

But furthermore they can "punch" through the walls of the ruins and move through it. lol, lame right?

Basimpo wrote:But furthermore they can "punch" through the walls of the ruins and move through it. lol, lame right?

There are a multitude of rules that "make no sense" in 40K. The rules are an abstraction to allow us to play the game. The rules have nothing to do with real world Physics.

So no, it is not "lame" Its just an abstract system used to simulate a battle.

Don't forget, though, that if the scarabs were on different levels of the ruin, then he still broke the rules. Swarms can never be on different ruin levels.

They were all on the ground floor. This stratagem makes me think I should include an indirect fire weapon in every list.

Scarabs are definatly something to be scared of now. In the entire game they are the only swarm I would ever take from any dex. They shut down any vehicle in 1 turn and are generally using "gay" as a pejorative is not permitted on Dakka. We consider it something only stupid and rude people do in mixed company. So don't do it. -Mannahnin


. Nothing like playing that apoc game and watching the IG player.....
Crud? himself when his shadowsword (or whatever) get eaten in 1 turn by a unit of 10 scarabs.

TheLionOfTheForest wrote:So something that happened to me in a game a few months ago has really been bothering me and I need some input from the community on whether what happened is standard operating procedure or stretching rules to far.

The situation:
My IG vs Necrons. Scarabs are center of the table in a multi story ruin (previously agreed area terrain) with a solid wall between me and the scarabs.

Player moved scarabs in the ruin in such a way that I had no LOS (scarabs are small). I had to ignore them on my turn as I had no LOS, right?
Then the necron player moved them right through the wall and assaulted my troops. I was unaware at the time models could move through a wall since I hadn't played since 2nd edition.
This seems cheesy to me since if I can't see them because of a wall it is basically an invincible shield. Is this true? Or can I target troops in area terrain even if they have a solid wall between us?

In my experience, most people tend to play that walls are simply difficult terrain, as it's assumed that your models have come prepared to bash through walls with grenades or something similar, but it's perfectly feasible for you to agree to make walls impassable except through doors, windows, etc. (Rulebook p83, 'Walls, doors, ladders and lateral thinking').

Hope that helps.

Vindicare-Obsession wrote: They shut down any vehicle in 1 turn and are generally gay.

I guess if they are shutting down a vehicle in 1 turn, they would be happy, but I have no idea how to tell. Maybe paint a smiley face on them?

Solid walls in ruins can be a big deal, tactically. It's definitely an important consideration how close you get to one, as they're ideal staging areas for assault. Very much like Woods were in 2nd-4th editions. Remember how you couldn't see across them, and an assault unit could hide behind it, then spring out and jump you? Of course in 2nd ed you could go on Overwatch...

Anyway, yes, it's something to bear in mind. Indirect fire weapons are good. As are flame template weapons which can move (to get LOS around the wall) and shoot. Hellhounds are terrors for scarabs. Remember too that the scarabs will be all bunched up after assaulting a vehicle- so you can set a trap for them with one vehicle, then drive up and nail them with a hellhound or a unit of vets or command section with flamers.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Don't forget, though, that if the scarabs were on different levels of the ruin, then he still broke the rules. Swarms can never be on different ruin levels.

Swarms can be up on the second floor of ruins, nothing wrong with that. Beasts, on the other hand, cannot. Only the unit type is relevant. Scarabs can't go up levels in ruins not because they are Swarms, but because they are Beasts.

I'd suggest reading pg 83 "walls, doors, ladders and lateral thinking". Ruins have 4 pages of rules and many of them are up to you and your opponent as to how you'd want to play them.

It's perfectly fine to not play with melting through walls and in my experience it makes the game a lot better.

Chrysis wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:Don't forget, though, that if the scarabs were on different levels of the ruin, then he still broke the rules. Swarms can never be on different ruin levels.

Swarms can be up on the second floor of ruins, nothing wrong with that. Beasts, on the other hand, cannot. Only the unit type is relevant. Scarabs can't go up levels in ruins not because they are Swarms, but because they are Beasts.

Swarm is also not on the list of unit types permitted, check page 83.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Chrysis wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:Don't forget, though, that if the scarabs were on different levels of the ruin, then he still broke the rules. Swarms can never be on different ruin levels.

Swarms can be up on the second floor of ruins, nothing wrong with that. Beasts, on the other hand, cannot. Only the unit type is relevant. Scarabs can't go up levels in ruins not because they are Swarms, but because they are Beasts.

Swarm is also not on the list of unit types permitted, check page 83.

Swarms is not a unit type. Swarms is a Universal Special Rule. Beasts is the Scarabs unit type.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Chrysis wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:Don't forget, though, that if the scarabs were on different levels of the ruin, then he still broke the rules. Swarms can never be on different ruin levels.

Swarms can be up on the second floor of ruins, nothing wrong with that. Beasts, on the other hand, cannot. Only the unit type is relevant. Scarabs can't go up levels in ruins not because they are Swarms, but because they are Beasts.

Swarm is also not on the list of unit types permitted, check page 83.

"Swarm" isn't a unit type; it's a USR.

Edit: ninja'd!

Though technically, you could deploy on a higher level, though they would be stuck on that level for the entire game.

DeathReaper wrote:

Basimpo wrote:But furthermore they can "punch" through the walls of the ruins and move through it. lol, lame right?

There are a multitude of rules that "make no sense" in 40K. The rules are an abstraction to allow us to play the game. The rules have nothing to do with real world Physics.

So no, it is not "lame" Its just an abstract system used to simulate a battle.

When i said "lame" i meant, at the time it happened and i did not know it was possible, it was lame it was gotten away with on me due to my ignorance Not ohhhh noooo its soooooo stupid waaah lol.

OOPS! Good point about the Swarms then.

This is good to know, so i can hide out of LOS and then roll difficult terrain then move through the wall ?

Pretty much.

Well it actually depens on how you and your opponent decide to play ruins. You'd be deciding that during your pre-game terrain discussion, the one in which you define and discuss all terrain to make sure you're both on the same page.

...but yes, that's the default.

IXLoiero95XI wrote:This is good to know, so i can hide out of LOS and then roll difficult terrain then move through the wall ?

If you dont decide otherwise, explicitly, then that is the default.

Happyjew wrote:Though technically, you could deploy on a higher level, though they would be stuck on that level for the entire game.

Okay, consider the following then.

You deploy your scarab swarm on the upper floor of a ruin. You say this can be done because even though the rule on ruins says they may not move on the upper levels of the ruins, you believe they can deploy there.

But we are agreed that the swarm, being beasts, may not move on the upper levels of the ruin under any circumstances.

Now I move in and assault your swarm.

Now accoring to the rules, you must make a defender reacts move (main rules page 33).

But the beast unit cannot move so it cannot make the move that it must make and the game breaks.

So yes, the rules do not say that you cannot deploy beasts on the upper floor of a ruin, but by the same token, nothing in the rules says they can be deployed there.

Well the Deployment rules say they may be deployed in your deployment zone.

If the ruin is in your deployment zone then you may deploy there as per the rules.

and Can't Trumps Must, so the game does not break if you assault the scarabs.

DeathReaper wrote:and Can't Trumps Must,

I missed that quote in the rules. Page please?

time wizard wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:and Can't Trumps Must,

I missed that quote in the rules. Page please?

I missed the definition of "the" in the rules. Page please?

It's a function of a permissive rules set.

rigeld2 wrote:
I missed the definition of "the" in the rules. Page please?

It's a function of a permissive rules set.

Well, I wasn't asking for a definition of "can't" or "must", I was asking where in the rules it says that "can't trumps must".

As far as being allowed to deploy anywhere in your deployment zone, we do have a FAQ that sets a bit of a precedent.

Q: Can a unit deploy in impassable terrain? (p92)
A: Not unless it is specifically allowed to move through
impassable terrain.

So a unit that can't move in certain terrain can't be deployed there.

But you say that a unit that can't move on the upper level of a ruin can be deployed there.

time wizard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I missed the definition of "the" in the rules. Page please?

It's a function of a permissive rules set.

Well, I wasn't asking for a definition of "can't" or "must", I was asking where in the rules it says that "can't trumps must".

As far as being allowed to deploy anywhere in your deployment zone, we do have a FAQ that sets a bit of a precedent.

Q: Can a unit deploy in impassable terrain? (p92)
A: Not unless it is specifically allowed to move through
impassable terrain.

So a unit that can't move in certain terrain can't be deployed there.

But you say that a unit that can't move on the upper level of a ruin can be deployed there.

That depends on if you consider upper floors of ruins to be impassable terrain, or just terrain that certain units can't pass.

Similar to skimmers landing on the top floors.