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1) Can you Gate of Infinity out of a vehicle?

2) VV combat squad as they deepstrike right? You don't decide at deployment, you decide when they arrive?

1.) There has been some debate about this - I believe you can Gate out of a Vehicle.

2.) This is correct, you split them on deployment, which is when they DS in this case.

Ok. I figured 1 may have been one of those contested things. We'll dice off each time we play probably, until we bother to debate it and set a house rule.

And thanks for the response.

The wierdboy power that allows the unit to DS lets them get out of a vehicle, mainly because you can't choose what power he uses.

The gate of infinity power states he is removed from the tabletop and then placed again, for this reason I call that you cannot use the power while in a vehicle, since it doesn't give you permission to remove the vehicle he's in and place it again.

I haven't really seen a lot of debate about Gating out of a vehicle. The main argument I've seen is using it in combat. From what I've seen, most people here are fine with it being used from within a vehicle, however, the vehicle would stay where it was.

Isn't a model that is in a vehicle considered to be "on the table"?

DarbNilbirts wrote:Isn't a model that is in a vehicle considered to be "on the table"?

Yes, and In Play, since you can use firepoints on the vehicles to fire weapons of the squad being transported.

And it is not about removing the vehicle, you can not do that because the transport is never a part of the librarians unit.

You remove the unit from the vehicle and DS them somewhere else.

Doom land and attempts power "all units etc." this was rulled as the following

Q: Does the Doom of Malan’tai’s Spirit Leech ability
affect units embarked in transport vehicles? (p58)
A: No.

so why cant they be affected? because there not actually on the table, otherwise they would be affected.

but this can be simplified to this

You cant remove from the table a unit that is not on the table

however, take a look at the homin beacon peice of wargear.
this needs to be on the table in order to work, so if a unit is in transport can it use its homing beacon to allow others to drop in, id say no as its not on the table.

Actually the reason Spirit Leech wouldn't work on an embarked unit, is not that it isn't on the table, but because, it is effectively a shooting attack, and unless a rule specifies, you cannot "shoot" a unit in a vehicle.

Formosa wrote:

Doom land and attempts power "all units etc." this was rulled as the following

Q: Does the Doom of Malan’tai’s Spirit Leech ability
affect units embarked in transport vehicles? (p58)
A: No.

so why cant they be affected? because there not actually on the table, otherwise they would be affected.

you can not shoot a unit that is embarked.

That is why your theory is flawed.
HJ hit the nail on the head.

Happyjew wrote:Actually the reason Spirit Leech wouldn't work on an embarked unit, is not that it isn't on the table, but because, it is effectively a shooting attack, and unless a rule specifies, you cannot "shoot" a unit in a vehicle.

DeathReaper wrote:

Formosa wrote:

Doom land and attempts power "all units etc." this was rulled as the following

Q: Does the Doom of Malan’tai’s Spirit Leech ability
affect units embarked in transport vehicles? (p58)
A: No.

so why cant they be affected? because there not actually on the table, otherwise they would be affected.

you can not shoot a unit that is embarked.

That is why your theory is flawed.
HJ hit the nail on the head.

Happyjew wrote:Actually the reason Spirit Leech wouldn't work on an embarked unit, is not that it isn't on the table, but because, it is effectively a shooting attack, and unless a rule specifies, you cannot "shoot" a unit in a vehicle.

actually before the FAQ alot of people argued that it could (i still cant believe these people thought this but meh), after the FAQ you couldnt, the only logical reason for this, is that a unit not on the table cannot be affected, but thats a minor point anyway.

the main point is, how do you remove something that is not physically on the table? you cant, so while you may activate the power (nothing to stop you) you cant actually pick up any models to place back down.

Aye, Doom isn't really relevant in this case. A better FAQ would be:

Q: Can psychic powers be used on a unit embarked on a transport? (p50)
A: For simplicity’s sake, the answer has to be a firm ‘No, unless the psyker himself is in the unit being transported’

Personally I'd say yes to Gating.

grendel083 wrote:Aye, Doom isn't really relevant in this case. A better FAQ would be:

Q: Can psychic powers be used on a unit embarked on a transport? (p50)
A: For simplicity’s sake, the answer has to be a firm ‘No, unless the psyker himself is in the unit being transported’

Personally I'd say yes to Gating.

oh i dont doubt the power can be cast, im just saying it wont do anything

Formosa wrote:the main point is, how do you remove something that is not physically on the table? you cant, so while you may activate the power (nothing to stop you) you cant actually pick up any models to place back down.

They are on the table (Not physically, but they are embarked in the transport, so they are on the table).

You take them from the transport and DS them. How is that unclear?

If you want to argue that a unit in a transport is not on the table, then an embarked model cannot use any powers or abilities, nor can they shoot from a fire point.

The vanguards can combat squad if theybare deployed at the setup. But if they are held in reserve, they may not split up.

Units that can Combat Squad, do so when they are deployed to the table, whether it be from a drop pod, deep striking, or walking on.

Happyjew wrote:If you want to argue that a unit in a transport is not on the table, then an embarked model cannot use any powers or abilities, nor can they shoot from a fire point.

they can use abilities in transports because the rules say they can, and can use fire poit because the rules say they can, but they are not actually on the table, the transport is.

Im just useing my eyes here, if the unit isnt acutally on the table and has no rules that say they can interact with the game while not on the table, then they cannot, by the same logic as useing gate in a transport, can i not use it in reserve? no because im not on the table.

but this is all moot anyway, i found the part in the BRB that leads me to believe im correct

page 66 "embarking"

"when the unit embarks it is removed from the table and placed aside etc"

So its clear the unit inside is not actually on the table at all, therefore it cannot be removed from the table to use the gate power.

Formosa wrote:

Happyjew wrote:If you want to argue that a unit in a transport is not on the table, then an embarked model cannot use any powers or abilities, nor can they shoot from a fire point.

they can use abilities in transports because the rules say they can, and can use fire poit because the rules say they can, but they are not actually on the table, the transport is.

Im just useing my eyes here, if the unit isnt acutally on the table and has no rules that say they can interact with the game while not on the table, then they cannot, by the same logic as useing gate in a transport, can i not use it in reserve? no because im not on the table.

but this is all moot anyway, i found the part in the BRB that leads me to believe im correct

page 66 "embarking"

"when the unit embarks it is removed from the table and placed aside etc"

So its clear the unit inside is not actually on the table at all, therefore it cannot be removed from the table to use the gate power.

This also means that things like Regimental Standards or other area-of-affect gear do not work from inside of a transport. Nor does Null Zone, for that matter.

Unit1126PLL wrote:This also means that things like Regimental Standards or other area-of-affect gear do not work from inside of a transport. Nor does Null Zone, for that matter.

Exactly this.

Bottom line is that Gate can be used since the unit is embarked on the transport.

The line about removing them from the table is just there to show you how the power works, it is not an intrinsic requirement of using the power.

except they have faq's and rules that say they do

The only issue with gate is there is no unit to remove from the table, again im not doubting the ability to cast it, as the rules are clear on that, im saying that because the unit is not on the board it gains no benefit, you cannot gate from reserves as you are not on the table, this is similar, as you are not on the board.

Thankfully this is not one of those grey areas.

Gate says remove unit (or just lib) from the table, this means they must be on the table, page 66 tells us the unit is not on the table.

This one happened to us:

A gate mishap caused the libby and squad to be rolled back to deepstrike. So what happens when a gating libby and squad gets pushed back to deepstrike later?
When do they come in on the table, there is no longer any starting point for the ibby to measure 24´ from.

Formosa wrote:except they have faq's and rules that say they do

The only issue with gate is there is no unit to remove from the table, again im not doubting the ability to cast it, as the rules are clear on that, im saying that because the unit is not on the board it gains no benefit, you cannot gate from reserves as you are not on the table, this is similar, as you are not on the board.

Thankfully this is not one of those grey areas.

Gate says remove unit (or just lib) from the table, this means they must be on the table, page 66 tells us the unit is not on the table.

"The Librarian and any unit he is with are removed from the tabletop and Immediately placed back within 24 inches..." P.57 SM codex.

how do we know where the 24 inch range is measured from if the models are not on the table?

We measure from the hull of the vehicle that they embarked upon.

Removing the models from the table is not a condition of the power working.

So the power is cast, we take the models that were in the transport, and DS them within 24 inches.

The 'apples' are removed from the tabletop and Immediately placed back within 24 inches...

If there are no 'apples' on the tabletop, how can you place them back?

If you look at a table with no 'apples' on it, you cant remove and place back 'apples,' its not possible.

Removing the models from the table is not a condition of the power working.

What you have said here, while not intentioned I hope, is that you can choose NOT to remove the Librarian from the table (forget vehicles for a second), while still placing a librarian back within 24 inches. You now have 2 librarians, because the first part of the rule "remove from the table" you apparently dont have to follow. IE, you cant place something back that you havent removed in the first place.

The " removed from the tabletop" describes what you do with the unit. If the unit is embarked, they are already not on the tabletop so you move onto the placement of the unit within 24 inches of the vehicle.

It is impossible to have 2 librarians.

The Librarians unit is within the vehicle, as they can still interact with the game.

You cast the power, then place them on the table within 24 inches of the vehicle, as that is where we are told to measure to if we have to check range to the Librarian or the unit.

DevianID wrote:The 'apples' are removed from the tabletop and Immediately placed back within 24 inches...

If there are no 'apples' on the tabletop, how can you place them back?

If you look at a table with no 'apples' on it, you cant remove and place back 'apples,' its not possible.

The apples are on the table.

They are within the bag on the table...

DeathReaper, the rules told you to remove the 'apples' from the table earlier, and place them ASIDE. The 'apples' were not placed in the 'bag,' as you were good and when you removed them from the table you placed them ASIDE like you were supposed to and not in the 'bag.'

The Librarians unit is within the vehicle, as they can still interact with the game.

Incorrect. The librarian's unit is embarked in the vehicle; embarked per the useage defined in the rules. Embarked unit have a limited interaction in a defined fashion with the game.

The way your quote reads, you are saying that because the unit can shoot from a fire point in the shooting phase, they can assault in the assault phase. You fail to point out that the only reason they can shoot is because embarked units are allowed that one feature in a limited capacity from limited fire points, NOT because they are a unit on the board--They are specifically NOT a unit on the board, there is a rule telling you this.

DevianID wrote:The 'apples' are removed from the tabletop and Immediately placed back within 24 inches...

If there are no 'apples' on the tabletop, how can you place them back?

If you look at a table with no 'apples' on it, you cant remove and place back 'apples,' its not possible.

If the apples are in a futuristic APC on the table top, you can remove them from the tabletop by removing them from the APC.
If you don't actually have to physically place the apples inside the APC, but just pretend that they are in there, then removing the apples from the tabletop would just involve pretending that the apples are no longer inside the APC.

What you have said here, while not intentioned I hope, is that you can choose NOT to remove the Librarian from the table (forget vehicles for a second), while still placing a librarian back within 24 inches.

No, that wasn't what he was saying at all.

What he was saying is that 'remove the librarian from the table top' is simply explaining that the librarian leaves the table. Whether you physically pick up a model or not makes no difference... but either way, there is nothing in that statement that would allow you to place a different model in place of the one that is Gating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DevianID wrote: The 'apples' were not placed in the 'bag,'...

...but we all pretend that they were.

It can disembark then assault, yes.

Also some units do not even need to disembark to assault in the assault phase (Like an Ork with a Boarding Plank).

The casting of GoI does not hinge on you removing them from the table.

So you are allowed to cast it.

once cast you remove them from the table.

If you cant then the game breaks, as we are not told what to do after this.

Or:

If they are embarked you simply pretend that they were removed and the game works just fine.

As Yakface said "So ultimately we have one interpretation in which the rules do not work at all and then we have another interpretation that works just fine. As you can't play with the former why is it worth even arguing about?"

insaniak, the models were already removed from the tabletop when they embarked, and you are trying to remove them from the tabletop for a second time.

Can units embarked in one transport embark into an empty transport within 2 inches? You seem to think so it would appear, as you are ignoring the part in the rules telling you to remove the unit from the table when embarking, and inserting a part in the rules that lets you count the embarked unit on the table.

AKA, you seem to advocate that an embarked unit is on the table despite the rules saying it is not, measures from any point on the vehicles hull for any reason, and can be removed from the table while embarked even though they are not on the table.

DevianID wrote:insaniak, the models were already removed from the tabletop when they embarked, and you are trying to remove them from the tabletop for a second time.

Can units embarked in one transport embark into an empty transport within 2 inches? You seem to think so it would appear, as you are ignoring the part in the rules telling you to remove the unit from the table when embarking, and inserting a part in the rules that lets you count the embarked unit on the table.

AKA, you seem to advocate that an embarked unit is on the table despite the rules saying it is not, measures from any point on the vehicles hull for any reason, and can be removed from the table while embarked even though they are not on the table.

So where is your rules support for the power just failing? Since you're advocating it this hard, surely you have some.