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Normally no, unless there is a rule that has them take damage.

Still ignoring that they coexist, meaning if the transport is on the table then so are the models inside.

still ignoring thats the shooting phase, as it clearly states so


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:So a unit that is not on the table can take damage?

yes because the rules say so (but only in this instance it seems), i admit it doesnt make much sense, but this is 40k were all on about lol

Formosa wrote:still ignoring thats the shooting phase, as it clearly states so

There's something in the FAQ that restricts that statement to the shooting phase?

I don't see it - could you point it out to me?

He is obfuscating the issue now that he has been exposed.

Outta here .

rigeld2 wrote:

Formosa wrote:still ignoring thats the shooting phase, as it clearly states so

There's something in the FAQ that restricts that statement to the shooting phase?

I don't see it - could you point it out to me?

yeah sure.

Q: Must passengers fire at the same target that their
vehicle is firing at? (p66)
A: No, they are a separate unit (albeit they are
temporarily co-existing with the vehicle) and so can fire
at a different target.


there you are, now can you show me where you can shoot out of a transport outside of the shooting phase, without a specific rule allowing it (like sweep attack from cron lord)

That FAQ does not restrict them to co-exist with the vehicle only in the shooting phase.

The FaQ shows that the unit, as long as they are embarked, is "temporarily co-existing with the vehicle"

So based on the people claiming they are not on the table and therefore are unable to cast GOI. Were you to walk up to me with your nice new shiny Chaos Decimator and puncture through my Rhino, as my models 'are not on the table' I can laugh off your attempts to heavy flamer them?

Whilst embarked they are represented on the table by the transport vehicle, they are affected by in game effects such as explosions, they may assault and all that jazz. Anyone trying to claim that as the actual models themselves are not on the board and as such this should affect the use of a power you are perfectly entitled to cast is having a laugh.

Don't quote me and try and draw me into an argument about it because this is the bottom line. You are perfectly entitled to cast GOI from inside a transport, this little self-created loophole in the rules in a futile attempt to say otherwise is both annoying and pretty pathetic.

Tara

Formosa wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Formosa wrote:still ignoring thats the shooting phase, as it clearly states so

There's something in the FAQ that restricts that statement to the shooting phase?

I don't see it - could you point it out to me?

yeah sure.

Q: Must passengers fire at the same target that their
vehicle is firing at? (p66)
A: No, they are a separate unit (albeit they are
temporarily co-existing with the vehicle) and so can fire
at a different target.


there you are, now can you show me where you can shoot out of a transport outside of the shooting phase, without a specific rule allowing it (like sweep attack from cron lord)

The FAQ says absolutely nothing of the sort - you are making that up. The parenthetical statement has no relating to the shooting phase, just a flat out statmeent that they are temporarily coexisting

it does say it in fact, as the only time you can fire out of a transport is in the shooting phase, and in that phase they temporarily exist within it for the purposes of shooting, othewise the caveat of it being temperary would mean nothing at all, had they stated "no, the unit co-exists with the transport, but can fire at a seperate unit" there would be no argumant here.

As to people who keep saying thing like this
"So based on the people claiming they are not on the table and therefore are unable to cast GOI. Were you to walk up to me with your nice new shiny Chaos Decimator and puncture through my Rhino, as my models 'are not on the table' I can laugh off your attempts to heavy flamer them?"

No, because as stated many many times before, the special rule allows you to affect the unit and thus over rules the BRB, the unit is still off the table, the rule just allows you to affect it.

The problem with gate is it asks you to remove an already removed unit, no one seems to have come up with a reason for why the unit would be on the table (to be clear, in the movement phase) after the BRB (page 66) states they are removed

It does not say "in the shooting phjase they temporarily coexist"

You are making that bit up

It says they temporarily coexist. Nothing else. As long as they unit is embarked they temporarily coexist.

Well I've crumbled already because this is ridiculous, are they not a viable KP either if they are killed whilst embarked? As the individual models are not physically on the table?

Have no idea what your reaching for but whatever it may be it is not there. They are represented on the table by the transport they are in. End of. You would request that your opponent balances his nicely painted squad on top of his transport in order to fulfill the requirements you seem to think are neccessary? The power is ok to use then?

I admire your persistance but this is getting embarassing now.

Back in 4th edition there was a BIG argument here that troops had to be disembarked to hold objectives... same muddled type of thinking.

Wild boar, why would you think they are not a kill point if destroyed? Also, if the vehicle is representing them, it is because they are not there, right? You claim we are using a rule loophole, but you are removing something that has been removed. You don't move something that has already been moved, so why do you think 'removed' works different?

The logic for gate working, it seems, is that despite embarking rules removing them from the table, it is apparently felt that the game breaks if you don't let the gate remove the unit from the table a second time.

I am saying it is silly to let gate players remove their unit twice, if they cast the power nothing happens. Just like if they cast a shooting power and can't shoot this turn.

And nos, as pointed out, 'temporally Co existing' does not mean the unit is on the table. The unit is off the table, remember that rule? Also, if they were Co existing for being on the table specifically, as you claim but not said as such in the rules, then things like lightning from the stormlord would hit them.

I have similar exasperating times trying to drill things into my 3 year old.

They are on the board, they are in the transport. Agreed? If not stop reading now.

If you do agree then please explain what basis you have for denying use of GOI. They may do all the things that other units may do in terms of gameplay, obviously within the guidlines of embarked units. Which incidentally includes casting psychic powers.

If you're actually expecting me to place my models on the transport so they are 'on the board' as you seem to think is relevant, long walk, short pier springs to mind.

DevianID wrote:The logic for gate working, it seems, is that despite embarking rules removing them from the table, it is apparently felt that the game breaks if you don't let the gate remove the unit from the table a second time.

The game does break - what rules tell you how to handle it? You've even said that nothing stops the power from being cast.
Now.
Find the rule to handle what happens next.

I am saying it is silly to let gate players remove their unit twice, if they cast the power nothing happens. Just like if they cast a shooting power and can't shoot this turn.

Well, no, that's different. Because PSAs actually state that they can't be used if the unit can't fire.
I don't see any restriction for GoI - can you point one out?

And nos, as pointed out, 'temporally Co existing' does not mean the unit is on the table. The unit is off the table, remember that rule? Also, if they were Co existing for being on the table specifically, as you claim but not said as such in the rules, then things like lightning from the stormlord would hit them.

False - the lightning on the Stormlord is a shooting attack and cannot hit a unit inside a transport. Bad red herring, bad!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Formosa wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Formosa wrote:still ignoring thats the shooting phase, as it clearly states so

There's something in the FAQ that restricts that statement to the shooting phase?

I don't see it - could you point it out to me?

yeah sure.

Q: Must passengers fire at the same target that their
vehicle is firing at? (p66)
A: No, they are a separate unit (albeit they are
temporarily co-existing with the vehicle) and so can fire
at a different target.


there you are, now can you show me where you can shoot out of a transport outside of the shooting phase, without a specific rule allowing it (like sweep attack from cron lord)

Erm - I don't care about shooting... but where does it say the shooting phase in that FAQ? It says they are a separate unit and as a consequence of that can fire at a different target. Cause, effect. There's nothing limiting that cause to ONLY be related to that effect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/452631.page#4342160

Relevant to this thread as well.
Keep arguing against it though.

insaniak wrote:

Flinty wrote:Taken as read, when a unit embarks on a transport it is no longer in play in the same way as foot slogging infantry.

Except that's not really true. They're still in play, they just don't interact with anything that requires LOS (other than shooting attacks if the vehicle has fire points) and can't be directly targeted by most in game effects due to being inside a vehicle.

They're still 'on the board'. You just remove the physical models, because there is no room to cram them inside the transport vehicle in most cases.

I see where you're coming from, I just think that being in a transport is a separate state of play to being "on the board", in a similar way that units in reserve can sometimes use their powers but are not quite in play or on the board. Trying to step back for a moment I guess that for me it comes down to what other things you can do from inside a transport. You can't necessarily do the whole range. In terms of casting psychic powers, fair enough you can certainly do shooting attacks, but only if the thing has fire points and the shooting attack follows those specific rules. You can't move inside a transport, you can only disembark, again a very specific action. You can't assault out of transports, you have to disembark and then assault (but ony if the vehicle rules let you).

Units in a vehicle can't typically take damage. Even when a vehicle is destroyed you're effectively applying the damage as the models are replaced on the tabletop.

Therefore there is no underlying requirement for the rules to allow you to take all actions at all times. Maybe this is one of those times.

In terms of the intent of the games designers, I'm not big on all codices, are there any other teleportation powers that can be used out of a transport?

Regarding the whole "temporary" thing from the FAQ there is nothing in the text that definately pins down when "temporary" starts and finishes. As the FAQ point is specifically discussing unit shootin I interpret it to mean that they are only there for their shooting phase and I don't think there is anything in there that contradicts that view. Equally there is nothing to stop it from meaning that the "temporary" extends beyond the shooting phase to the whole time the unit is being transported, so its not terrbly helpful here to be honest

Flinty wrote:Even when a vehicle is destroyed you're effectively applying the damage as the models are replaced on the tabletop.

Except that is not how the rules work. The models take the damage, THEN are placed on the table.

"Models embarked in a vehicle are not on the table." This way leads to madness.

Flinty wrote:Units in a vehicle can't typically take damage.

Ah if only, my poor guard regularly die inside their transports. Curse those overheating plasma guns!
Now how do I remove them as a causality if they're already removed from the table. The mind boggles...

nosferatu1001 wrote:It does not say "in the shooting phjase they temporarily coexist"

You are making that bit up

It says they temporarily coexist. Nothing else. As long as they unit is embarked they temporarily coexist.

Correct it doesnt say it, but it does say

Q: Must passengers fire at the same target that their
vehicle is firing at? (p66)
A: No, they are a separate unit (albeit they are
temporarily co-existing with the vehicle) and so can fire
at a different target.

Now other than the shooting phase, when can i fire at something?

Now some of you are kind of acusing me of ignoring the rules or not listening, however page 66 does clearly state that you remove the models from the table when embarking, you can leave a model on top of the transport to represent what is inside, the unit is still off the table though, some people are saying things like this " Which incidentally includes casting psychic powers." Again we are not saying the power cant be cast, as it clearly can, the rules govern that, we are saying it has no effect.

The crux of this seems to be this

Can you cast Gate of inifnity when in reserve? no, of course not, because of several reasons, one of which is the unit is not on the table

So overheating plasma doesn't remove models?
What basis do you have for the power not doing anything. There's no such allowance in GoI.

And again - you're failing to separate cause and effect. The effect is that they can fire at different targets. The cause is that they coexist.

Where is your rules basis for the coexisting not being always on?
Do teleport homers fail to function while embarked?
Do other special powers that require the model to be on the table?

Please cite rules.

Formosa - and, again, you are ignoring that the parenthesis is simply a blanket, unrestricted phrase around them coexisting

While they are embarked, they coexist. This is tmeporary because when you disembark you no longer coexist, making it a non permanent state

Your conclusion has no basis in language or rules, which shoudl be a big clue that it isnt a valid conclusion to reach

@rigeld2 - Overheating plasma weapons do cause casualties because the models are still in play, and indeed are temporarily co-existing with the vehicle, at least for the duration of the shooting phase.

@Grendel - please note the use of the word "typically".

@nos - Or alternatively while they are embarked they are off the table, except for the specific action of shooting. Your conclusion is equally unsupported with regard to the "temporary" statement. your interpretation is valid, but so is mine.

So since they are off the table, then any wargear that has a bubble ceases to work (except in the Shooting phase). Additionally, an embarked Troop unit would not be able to control an objective, as the unit is not within range.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Formosa - and, again, you are ignoring that the parenthesis is simply a blanket, unrestricted phrase around them coexisting

While they are embarked, they coexist. This is tmeporary because when you disembark you no longer coexist, making it a non permanent state

Your conclusion has no basis in language or rules, which shoudl be a big clue that it isnt a valid conclusion to reach

Its talking about the shooting phase quite clearly, as i states shooting several times, im not ignoring it.

Removing something from the table twice is not possible we all know this, all the silly examples of plasma guns etc. all overrule the lack of being on the table, same as ap3 negates a 3+ save, one overrides the other, GOI has no such basis.

The models temporarely exist in a transport in the shooting phase as the FAQ states, as its just one phase its temporary, otherwise it would say "the unit always coexists" and the BRB wouldnt even mention removing the models from the table, this is evident as i cannot find anywhere in the BRB that states that models "co-exist" with a transport, there is no need, we have already been told there not on the board.

So what your argument boils down to then, is that the unit is not on the board and only temporarily is on the board during the Shooting phase?

Formosa wrote:Its talking about the shooting phase quite clearly, as i states shooting several times, im not ignoring it.

You are ignoring the fact that the FAQ is not limiting its statement to the shooting phase.
Or you're deliberately mis-stating or misreading.

You're ignoring that your interpretation means that any bubble wargear ceases to work while in a transport.
Same with bubble effects like BA Priest FnP.
You also have no rules support for saying GoI can be cast but would have no effect.
The power is cast - now resolve it. What rule are you using to say that the power has no effect - GoI certainly doesn't provide for that possibility.

Formosa - irrelevant, as the FAQ is not limited to the shooting phase

No, Flinty, your supposition is less valid - you are applying a restriction that is neither implied or stated, and is thus less valid than the more general statement.

Flinty wrote:@rigeld2 - Overheating plasma weapons do cause casualties because the models are still in play, and indeed are temporarily co-existing with the vehicle, at least for the duration of the shooting phase.

But... How do I remove the models as a casualty if they've already been removed? Doesn't that just negate the second attempt at removal (casualty)?

rigeld2 wrote:

Flinty wrote:@rigeld2 - Overheating plasma weapons do cause casualties because the models are still in play, and indeed are temporarily co-existing with the vehicle, at least for the duration of the shooting phase.

But... How do I remove the models as a casualty if they've already been removed? Doesn't that just negate the second attempt at removal (casualty)?

there not casualties, there just off the table and need to be removed becuase plasma weapons state so, thus overriding the other rule.

You are ignoring the fact that the FAQ is not limiting its statement to the shooting phase.
Or you're deliberately mis-stating or misreading.

I could say the same of you.

You're ignoring that your interpretation means that any bubble wargear ceases to work while in a transport.
Same with bubble effects like BA Priest FnP.
You also have no rules support for saying GoI can be cast but would have no effect.
The power is cast - now resolve it. What rule are you using to say that the power has no effect



As far as i was aware BA priest FNP didnt apply to the unit outside a transport??

The rule im applying the page 66 Embarkation, it states the models are removed from the tabletop, i am also applying the rule from GoI, that tells you to remove the unit from the tabletop, how do we remove the unit a 2nd time?

Q: Must passengers fire at the same target that their
vehicle is firing at? (p66)
A: No, they are a separate unit (albeit they are
temporarily co-existing with the vehicle) and so can fire
at a different target

The FaQ says shooting and temporary, how can it apply to a phase other than shooting?
Also this still does not state they are bought back onto the table, just that in the shooting phase they temporarely "co-exist" with the transport, for the purposes of shooting and psy powers.