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Greetings all,

Unfortunately the good times have past, when playing a 1000 points I did quite well, but now that we have moved to 2000 I have yet to win a game. I purchased 180 worth of CSM and have been trying to build an army that can at least occasionally win, but thusfar have had no luck, so I am looking to drop another 100-200 into it to make it viable, but I would also like to ensure the purchases remain steady and useful when the new changes roll around here in a few months. The following is my current 2000 point list.

1 x Daemon Prince with Lash of Slaneesh and Wings

1 x Kharn the Betrayer in my squad of
8X Khorne Berzerkers
1x Skull Champion with Power fist - All 3 in Rhino

3 x Terminators, 1 with chain fist, all 3 with Combi Meltas. These are a termicide squad, who have yet to actually show their worth. Deep striking them near a vehicle, they always miss their shots or deep strike into oblivion.

4x Terminators w/ Reaper Autocannon and 1 Combi Plasma

5 x Plague Marines - 2 with plasma gun in a Rhino as objective holders.
5 X Plague Marines - 2 with plasma gun as base defenders.

1 x Chaos Dreadnaught 2x Mounted Autocannon w/heavy flamer - Seems like a good unit with the changes to his fire frenzy rule. Cheap and effective when aimed the right way

1 x Chaos Predator Autocannon and Heavy Bolter Sponsors - Lascannon predator seemed too expensive. Assuming I can keep the shots hitting his front armor, he's a decent unit killer and mobile cover save, and is cheap.

5 x Chaos Havocs, 4 missle launchers. Been placing them at high points and firing krak missles at light vehicles, and frag missles to take down squads that have been lashed together.

8x Thousand Suns
1x Aspiring Sorcer with Bolt of Change - Rhino . The army only came with 2 rhinos, so making due with what I have.

2x Obliterator Cult. Only came with 2 obliterators, I have a feeling this is where I am going to need to buy more and drop some units.

--

If there is something (like a 3rd rhino, which I absolutely had to purchase), I also have

1 x Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor
1 x Chaos Lord with wings and Lightning Claws
1 x Fabius Bile
1 x Ahrimann
5 x Possessed Chaos Space Marines
15 x Vanilla CSM
1 x Chaos Sorcerer
2 x Chaos Spawn
6 x Noise Marines
3 x Chaos Terminators
5 x Chaos Chosen (basically old chaos chosen models, and Fabius bile models that I converted)

--

I am guessing that I likely should drop the havocs, and bolster up to something like 6 or 9 obliterators, but the models are incredibly expensive. I've looked into converting the 3x terminators or the 2x chaos spawn, but the amount of green stuff, carpenter's tools, etc, seems outside of my skill range. Looking for any insight on purchases, alterations, or changes I can make to make the army viable that might still be useful come the changes in 6th edition. Also perhaps any tactics would be useful, right now the tactic is really to lash groups together and explode them, and create a firing line as best as possible, and anything that tries to break through it assault with the berserkers. Unfortunately you would be amazed how often I fail the psychic test (roll 11 or 12) or roll a 1 on the To Hit for Lash. Let's not even talk about adding something like Eldrad to the game.

Firstly, you're spending less than half your points on troops. This is bad in general, but is especially bad given that troops choices are CSM's strong suit. Furthermore, the troops you do have are kind of all over the place, which means supporting them is going to be difficult (which comes as no surprise, then that your support choices are all over the place).

What I would do is to tighten your list up so that your troops provide a single strong style of play so that your support options only have a couple of gaps they need to fill.

Also, what is your 1,000 point list? Some of the best 2k lists I've seen are 1k lists that have been taken twice in the same list.

Well as I said, the issue is that I dropped 200 bucks into getting this huge jumbo pile of models, not knowing what I was doing thinking they would at least be viable in a friendly sort of environment. Unfortunately what I'm finding is that any rag tag team of models can stomp whatever configuration of models I choose. I went with the current decision because it seemed to me that the current incarnation of the game is very mech based, and our only good troop choice is the plague marine. Obviously I could go through and start converting some of the vanilla to plague, but many of them are already painted so I was avoiding that for now unless there was a strong idea with it. My primary 1k list was simply demon prince, 2 obliterators, 10 plague marines, 6 khorne berserkers, a skull champion, and kharne.

The issue seems to be that as other armies increase in point value more is brought on the stage, whereas chaos can only just bring more of what they did at 1000 points. I kept the berserkers because although they are unable to beat the average assault troop I am against (banshees, harlequins, assault terminators, etc) I still find that having some sort of assault unit is necessary. So although the army is very hunker down and shoot oriented, something like a land raider is always going to burst through and I needed a unit to deal with that. The dreadnought has been a cheap option to tie up something like the banshees who can't even dent it, the predator is relatively worthless but lays down some good fire from a distance. The termicide squad is a cheap way of dealing with long range support, but can fail so easily it's not even funny, and having the havocs high up in the air allows them to always take their shots and normally put some kind of wounds somewhere. Kharne and prince are my primary AV14 crackers, as I have yet to successfully crack a land raider with a lascannon shot from the obliterators. I suppose with that logic I could just come in with more plague marines, more khorne berserkers, more obliterators, and more rhinos, but it's a lot of conversion and a ton of troops from the initial purchase left useless.

Primarily I'm up against space marines, which is why I put the thousand suns in there for their AP3 shots, but any vehicle I have is instantly destroyed by the salamander army (drop podding ironclads, speeders, meltas everywhere all rerolling their to hits), hell one turn against eldar even with everyone but the dreadnought getting cover saves I still lost the predator, dreadnought, and 2 rhinos in turn 1 before I went!

I know MSU is supposed to be good, but from my experience, squads of 5 just suck. I find I do better when each squad is large enough to be a threat by itself. I mean, maybe if you are able to get those 2 5 man squads into combat at the same time consistently, then it can be good. But if your 5 man squad is caught by itself, it's going to die.

I, personally, would split kharn away from the berzerkers. The berzerkers should be a threat on their own, and kharn should be a threat on his own. The enemy should have to choose which threat to go for, and not be able to get both at once. I'd put him with one of your petite plague 5 man squads to soak up wounds so he can get into combat, in a rhino. I love it when someone moves 12" in a vehicle and I assault it with kharn, and they're like "Okay, that'll be 6s to hit" and I'm like "Naaah bitch, 2s to hit."

I haven't added up the points, but it looks like it might be less than 2000 points? idk, just looks like less points. If I were you I'd do like the above post says and add more troops. Maybe another 8+ squad of berzerkers or another 10 plagues (either as 1 squad, or split in 2 5 man squads if MSU is working for you). I'd also add more obliterators so you end up with 2 squads of 3 of them.

Phragonist wrote:I love it when someone moves 12" in a vehicle and I assault it with kharn, and they're like "Okay, that'll be 6s to hit" and I'm like "Naaah bitch, 2s to hit."

Kharn's ability to always hit on a 2+ is restricted to opponent's with a weapon skill value.

Telsiph wrote:The issue seems to be that as other armies increase in point value more is brought on the stage, whereas chaos can only just bring more of what they did at 1000 points.

Other armies have better bloat, true, but that doesnt' necessarily make bloat better. I'd be much more nervous facing off against a 2,000 point list that was kharn and 6 units of 13 berzkerers with fists than against the 2,000 point list you've put up originally, and I'd be more afraid of that than a hybrid list in any army.

Kharn's ability to hit vehicles on a 2+ was FAQd so that he cannot do so, however in the leaked rules for the new codex it is apparently going back to the way it once was. Regardless, for now, he cannot always hit vehicles on a 2+. Having him by himself makes him too easy to kill, he can be one shotted by a lascannon, I normally run him with the berserkers and then if there is a guaranteed target that I can assault I *may* break him off, but even a power fist wound is instant death.

I ran one game where I rolled 4 1's on his to hit, ended up with 3 dead berserkers, absolutely ridiculous, I honestly thought about dropping him and putting the sorcerer into an army somewhere for dual lashes.

I could absolutely just go and purchase a ton of berserkers and plague marines, just seems depressing that so many of these units have no place in the army. These other armies have so many variations in there units, having a bit of everything and absolutely stomping face, whereas the more I am reading the more it seems to be that everything but those few units I had in my thousand point have to go.

I took a Thousand Sons army to a 60 player tournament around here and ended up 2-2-1 with the only bad loss being vs Grey Knights. You can win with other units if you build a good list around them. And you'll be in a better position when the next Chaos Marine book comes out if you have a more varied collection.

I'm a longtime CSM player, they were my first army. I win many games that I play, and my losses are usually close. Only GK have decimated me in my entirety. (Damn guys firing S5 Stormbolters and Assaulting with power weapons. My Rhino with CSM inside had popped smoke but was glanced to wreckage and the men inside were slain my power weapons. Damn.) I'm not going to make your list for you, but here's a few general tips that always have worked for me.

Unless you're using a LoS/Blastermaster combo with Noisemarines don't go MSU. If you want that look somewhere else. We like to have 7-10 guys in Rhinos, mobile enough to go places, shoot your weapons, and hold objectives. For every 500 points of game you play, I would include a troop choice. This means at 2 gran points you want four troop choices.

Have an overall theme in mind, don't just go "herp online says X is good, autoinclude." At the same note, know your strengths. I know and embrace that Obliterators are awesome, as I always used to use them, but I somehow get more mileage out of Auto/Las predators with a Doom Siren.

Have a good balance of anti-tank and anti-infantry. Melta and plasma is good for tanks and infantry, flamer is great for hordes. As tempting as Assault may sound, sometimes it is wiser to sit in area terrain and rapid fire bolters.

I prefer Chaos Sorcerers to Daemon Princes because they hide, and spells can be cast from Rhinos (with the squad).

I use Thousand Sons, stat. Most online people hate them, but when you play with mostly non-horde armies and you have Lash........ Just watch your opponent's face as their squad vaporizes before their very eyes.

Stay away from fast attack.

Dreadnoughts have 4th edition rules in a 5th edition game. Abuse it. They can only see 45 degrees from their weapon mount, and since you can turn to a unit that you never saw in the first place with craze........ Clever positioning can act like free double shots when you craze. HOWEVER! If an enemy squad is to your left like 6 inches away and one of your own units is however long away in front of you, tough luck. It's a double edged sword.

I've only used Havocs once, but they performed decently well. Throw em' in cover and watch the bullets fly. If you can proxy them to have autocannons.

Terminators: Squads of three with Meltas, deep striking behind their vehicles. If they don't die that turn you have three Termies behind enemy lines. Coo.

Telsiph wrote:just seems depressing that so many of these units have no place in the army. These other armies have so many variations in there units...

To be fair, CSM has one of the oldest codices in the game right now, and are slated to be the next new codex that is released. Prepare to have a lot more viable options in the near future.

Nitros14 wrote:
Kharn's ability to always hit on a 2+ is restricted to opponent's with a weapon skill value.

whatwhatWHAT? WTF? Why would they nerf him so bad? I really hope, like someone said, that in the new chaos codex they have this fixed back to how it is originally in the codex. That is what made him good. Who cares about hitting on 2s against people with WS... I mean it's OKAY, but hitting vehicles that move 12" is what was great and made him worth taking imo

CSM is my main army and I run Kharn as well. Here's my bit of advice:

Focus a bit more. Your forces are trying a lot of different hats. You need to think your army to support itself.

For the termicide, remember that you don't need to roll scatter if they Deep Strike close tyo an icon. Kharn has one, and you can put one in any squad of regular CSM.

You may want to replace one of your plague units with 10 regular CSM. Add an icon of Chaos Glory and a couple of meltas, in a rhino. Use them to claim an objective of harass one. The enemy will often direct a bit assault tank or other nasty to deal with them. Deep Strike your termies there using the icon to reinforce. Or deep-strike them close to kharn, open a land raider and let him assault the contents.

Havocs are rather sub-optimal. I hate to go with the chorus, but obliterators offer better choices nearly all of the time. Even getting just an extra pair may improve your odds a lot.

The 1K Sons are also WAY too expensive for what they do. Everything in cover has a 4+ save anywhere, so their AP bolters are rarely going to work well. (when they do, it's awesome. But smart enemies will make sure that is a very rare occasion).

Shelve them until the next chaos book comes out. Replace with a unit of Chosen in a rhino. I like a 5-member unit with 3 meltaguns and 2 flamers. They can infiltrate or outflank to decimate important vehicles/mobs and even contest objectives!

Many people hate the chaos land raider. I for one vouch for it. It can give your berserkers and Kharn a boost by giving them a 18 to 20-inch charge range (12 inches of driving, disembark 2 inches from the front hatch, assault 6 inches). Daemonic possession makes sure it’s always on the move. But lance weapons and multi-0metals will make you cry.

Alternatively, it can transport your other terminator squad. Walking termies are usually not that good. 4 terminators with lightning claws and the mark of Khorne/slaanesh can be really daunting to many armies out there.

Finally, if your zerkers are with Kharn, you don't need a power fist as bad. He is GREAT at cracking vehicles, and having the skull champion with 5 attacks hitting and wounding on 3+ is quite good with a power sword alone.

In objective games feel free to split Kharn from the unit to assault weak-average units like tactical marines by himself while the zerkers assault something else or ride on in the rhino/raider. Very often he’ll win combat by a wide margin and remove an enemy objective-holder. Even if he dies to a lascannon shot later, he is not a scoring unit so no worries, and he can draw attention away from –your- troops.

Telsiph wrote:, just seems depressing that so many of these units have no place in the army.

This has a bit of truth to it. CSM does have some good units, but a lot of these are auto-selected in competitive builds. In terms of HQ it's basically daemon price with wings, sorcerer with jump pack or Kharn. All the troops are useful, except for 1k sons as they're simply too expensive for what they do. All the troops are better off with rhinos.

The obliterators are pretty much an auto selection since they provide deep striking multi-melta or lange range lascannons.

The only real choices you have is whether you want to take terminators, havocs or predators.

I've had good success pairing raptors with a sorcerer, but I know that a lot of people don't like to use raptors.

Until the new codex comes out and brings us new blessings from the dark gods our palette will be a bit limited.

The 1K Sons are also WAY too expensive for what they do. Everything in cover has a 4+ save anywhere, so their AP bolters are rarely going to work well. (when they do, it's awesome. But smart enemies will make sure that is a very rare occasion).

The Bolters aren't really the big important thing about Thousand Sons, it's their 4+ invulnerable save which lets them hold objectives outside of cover and hold up power weapons and fists in close combat. As well as the hidden force weapon that can't be picked out, it's pretty much the only time Warptime is good now.

They're a few points overcosted but they're very usable and I've won games in tournaments with them.

Nitros14, I'm so glad that SOMEBODY is on my side.

Run 2x lash princes, 2x 8 zerkers, champ fist, rhino, 2x 5 plagues with dual melta, rhino, 6 obliterators and a defiler, or 9 obliterators. Add plasma cannon dread or termicide to taste.

That is "the" chaos list if you want to be even a little bit competitive. Any other units are just boat anchors, only take the stuff that works.

Nitros14 wrote:

The 1K Sons are also WAY too expensive for what they do. Everything in cover has a 4+ save anywhere, so their AP bolters are rarely going to work well. (when they do, it's awesome. But smart enemies will make sure that is a very rare occasion).

The Bolters aren't really the big important thing about Thousand Sons, it's their 4+ invulnerable save which lets them hold objectives outside of cover and hold up power weapons and fists in close combat. As well as the hidden force weapon that can't be picked out, it's pretty much the only time Warptime is good now.

They're a few points overcosted but they're very usable and I've won games in tournaments with them.

Nitros14 has spoken the truth!

In response to the OP:

You are using Berzerkers to contest assault units. This is a waste because most dedicated assault units will eat up Berzerkers. But... Thousand Sons will delay dedicated assault units far beyond what your opponent has planned for. In addition, Thousand Sons are far more effective in the shooting phase than are Berzerkers. Even if, as others have said, a good player will stay in cover and deny the ap3 shooting the fact that the "good player" is forced to react in a fashion you can reliably plan to take advantage of you are gaining quite a bit.

Someone earlier mentioned that CSM troops are the heart of the codex. I agree! Each of the cult troops excels in some fashion and you can build your entire list around this feature.

I like 7 man Plague Marine units in a rhino with 2 melta guns because: 1) you can move 6" and fire them both from the rhino, 2) your opponent must consider the fact that you can move 12", disembark 2" and then fire those meltas (they tend to keep their distance or adjust their target selection), 3) fnp against small arms fire is wicked, and 4) T5 definitely keeps more models alive (even against GK shooting). I often take four of these units @ 216 pts each (with no champion) totaling 864. This is a strong core for any CSM army.

I also like a single 9 man unit of Thousand Sons with Sorcerer having Bolt of Change (remember the ap 1 against vehicles) in a rhino. This forces opponents to remain in cover and slows them appreciably; otherwise, 12" move, disembark 2" and then rapid fire 12" for 16 bs4 ap3 shots. 332 points.

[Berzerkers and Noise Marines also have their advantages.]

Anyhow, now you have your opponent reacting to what you "might do" as well as to what you actually do with your five troop units. But, as others have pointed out, crafty opponents will attempt to shoot your rhinos out from under you. The best thing about Oblits is their move-and-fire capability. This means you should never lose them without their being able to fire first (whether you go first or second). Do NOT shoot at the AV14 first. Take shots that are mathematically more certain to reduce either your opponents heavy weapons or their light vehicles. If your opponent is primarily using his Land Raider as a firing platform he is not efficiently building his list because there are cheaper means of getting similar or better shooting. Two Oblits are 150 points (4 cost 300, obviously).

I also like to use Chosen CSM in 5 man units primarily because infiltrate allows me to place this unit AFTER my opponent has set up and close enough to make deadly use of having 4 plasmaguns. For a mere 150 points you can infiltrate a unit into cover that can reach out 24" and deny armor saves or even destroy light vehicles. Furthermore, if your opponent comes within 12" you rapid fire with ap2.

Terminators? At only 30 points (35 with a combi-plasma/melta) these units are a steal IF utilized properly. If you want to deepstrike them then you must add personal icons to your five troop units. Because I prefer redundancy, I like combi-plasma to duplicate the work of the Chosen and the Thousand Sons. Deepstrike a few termies and rapid fire at anything in the open. Of course, deepstriking combi-melta termies duplicates the threat the Plague marines bring with their two meltas per squad. Finally, I sometimes skip the combi-weapons in favor of the reliable Reaper Autocannon to duplicate the move-and-fire capability of the Oblits - which requires no deepstriking. Utilize whichever of these combinations best works against your intended opponent. Just be careful to use the termies as a support unit carefully tailored for the role you most need.

Now, we come to the army commander!

There are lots of options for the Chaos Lord. I particularly like the Chaos Lord with Deathscreamer. Since the 9 man Thousand Sons are in a rhino, this Lord can join them and effectively increase their ap3 shooting after they disembark, plus provide d6 ap3 shots alongside the Bolt of Change from the rhino's hatch, as well as increase the formidable power of the "hidden" force weapon once this unit ends up in combat against your opponents dedicated assault units. Lots of options here and lots of redundancy so that you can force your opponent to react to your list. Kharn the Betrayer is also good with this unit because he can leave the unit after it disembarks and even if he hits his own unit the 4+ invulnerable protects them half the time. I also like a DP with wings, mark of TZ and two psychic powers (Bolt and Wind of Chaos) since both can be fired every turn. Keep him behind cover to present an 18" threat range to your opponent while still taking Bolt shots with lines of fire to your intended target.

Finally, every unit described above is capable of performing moderately well to exceptionally well in melee. Very few other codexes can claim that every one of their units is a capable melee unit like CSM can. Hell, even without a champion in the Plague Marine squads their blight grenades deny your opponent an extra attack on the charge. If you have the points for a champion and a powerfist that unit compares favorably against any other troop unit in the game in melee.

CSM codex is old and ready for an update. Nevertheless, it remains capable of causing your opponent fits when played properly. I hope some of my advice is helpful. If not... ignore it all and simply create carnage because the Chaos gods demand such from their dedicated followers.

You can make some pretty good lists with the models you've got, without having to get a lot more. Converting obliterators really isn't very difficult. Adding some green stuff and more guns to terminators isn't as difficult as you might think.

Here's the thread about the 2000pt list I used to go 5W, 1L (to Mike Brandt, who runs the NOVA GT and IIRC had never lost a tournament game until the final round at BFS) at Battle for Salvation last year, which is a NOVA-style Grand Tournament:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/403073.page

Here's the thread about the 1850 list I used to take Best General (4W, 1L to Ben Mohlie, one of the best players in the country, and captain of the US team for the European Team Championships) at last year's Boston Brawl:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/380621.page

That latter list is pretty similar to the one I used to take 2nd Overall in the Adepticon Championship Qualifier last year. Only went 3/1 (lost to Jay Woodcock, another great player, who's represented the US on the ETC team), but soft scores helped push me up.

Chaos overpays a bit for some stuff compared to some other books, but has a number of unique tricks. Lash is really great and very flexible, of course, enhancing shooting, assault, and maneuver if you use it creatively and well.

More than just lists, practice and terrain are also major factors in doing well with Chaos. It doesn't tend to work well on empty tables against shootier opponents.

Nitros14 wrote:

The 1K Sons are also WAY too expensive for what they do. Everything in cover has a 4+ save anywhere, so their AP bolters are rarely going to work well. (when they do, it's awesome. But smart enemies will make sure that is a very rare occasion).

The Bolters aren't really the big important thing about Thousand Sons, it's their 4+ invulnerable save which lets them hold objectives outside of cover and hold up power weapons and fists in close combat. As well as the hidden force weapon that can't be picked out, it's pretty much the only time Warptime is good now.

They're a few points overcosted but they're very usable and I've won games in tournaments with them.

Oh great, paying almost 300 points for a full 1ksons squad and all you get is the ability to stand in the open ( and die to most stuff just as easily as your normal, far cheaper csm squad ), yay \o/.
Of course, your standard csm ( or Plaque marine, for added durability ) squad with rhino is just as capable at holding objectives and the special weapons even allow
it to influence the battle in a meaningful way.
Besides that, i am fairly certain that there are people who won a tournament because they took chaosspawn. Still doesn't make spawn any good.

KingDeath wrote:

Nitros14 wrote:

The 1K Sons are also WAY too expensive for what they do. Everything in cover has a 4+ save anywhere, so their AP bolters are rarely going to work well. (when they do, it's awesome. But smart enemies will make sure that is a very rare occasion).

The Bolters aren't really the big important thing about Thousand Sons, it's their 4+ invulnerable save which lets them hold objectives outside of cover and hold up power weapons and fists in close combat. As well as the hidden force weapon that can't be picked out, it's pretty much the only time Warptime is good now.

They're a few points overcosted but they're very usable and I've won games in tournaments with them.

Oh great, paying almost 300 points for a full 1ksons squad and all you get is the ability to stand in the open ( and die to most stuff just as easily as your normal, far cheaper csm squad ), yay \o/.
Of course, your standard csm ( or Plaque marine, for added durability ) squad with rhino is just as capable at holding objectives and the special weapons even allow
it to influence the battle in a meaningful way.
Besides that, i am fairly certain that there are people who won a tournament because they took chaosspawn. Still doesn't make spawn any good.

Not only can you stand in the open, but you can tie up squads that use power weapons. Your champion has the potential to ID many heroes and large creatures. Your psychic powers can used to used to decent effect, like Wind of Chaos or Doom Bolt to add to your AP 3 shooting. Math hammer is math hammer, but those times where plasma weapons or power weapon kill not one man are the best game. What a lot of people don't realize is that Warhammer is very psychological, and a squad with straight AP 3 guns is always a threat if you pack power armor. People aren't always in cover, and you have Lash. Yes, 1k Sons are expensive, but if used to their full potential they are lethal. Not only that, but within a month or so universal cover save will probably be 5+.

Well obviously I will be doing some more tweaking, last night the game store happened to have 3 old school metal obliterators so I dropped 70 bucks on them and tried a 1700 list, my army was

Daemon Prince w/ Lash Lash

Kharne
8xKhorn Bers w/ Skull Champion w/ PowerFist in Rhino

3xTerminate with Combi Melta as Termicide

5x Plague Marines in Rhino with plasma gun in Rhino

5x Plague Marines in Rhino with plasma gun in Rhino

5x CSM with flamer

3 x Obliterators

2 x Obliterators

Predator with autocannon and heavy bolter sponsors

Chaos Dreadnought with autocannon and heavy flamer

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This was against an Eldar army, and was annihilation. You'll have to excuse me I'm not particularly familiar with the eldar unit names. He placed his long range units in a building which gave them a 2+ cover save. Avatar was walking, Eldrad in a wave with a squad, 2 squads of 3 walkers each, and a final squad that came in from reserves. He started, 3 walkers with brightlance scouted forward before game began, then moved 6 inches turn one and fired all brightlances at the predator. Even with cover save wrecked it first turn as there were 6 shots. Everyone else took some shots but did nothing. There was a choke point so I completely blocked it off with 2 rhinos with plague marines in them, pulled the rhino with berserkers around the side and the rhino immobilized on dangerous terran. Fired 5 lascannon shots at the walkers from the various obliterators and took 1 walker down, and shook the others from lascannons and reaper autocannon fire from dreadnought. Attempted to lash the snipers out of their building, and because of eldrad rolled a 13 and took a wound failing invul. Put 1 wound on avatar from plasma gun fire.

Next turn avatar picked up one of the rhinos that my plague marines were in and ate it, om nom nom, whole bunch of shots happened but nothing interesting, he was honestly playing poorly. Squad in building barely had any shots, and the reinforcement squad came in so far away they added nothing. Other squad of walkers fired their star cannons at the immobilized rhino but did nothing as I had popped smoke on all of them, and waverunner fired some shots but only avatar made a kill. My phase I gave up trying to lash with eldrad on the field, and moved daemon prince over next to the waverunner. Took down another walker with lascannon fire and autocannon. Put another wound on avatar from plasma guns and bolters from the 2 plague marine squads. This is when it gets funny, charged the waverunner with kharn and his berserkers, and rolled 5 1's. Yes, 5, he had strength 6 because of charge, so wounded on a 2+, and that was 4 dead khorne berserkers. The skull champion did managed to blow up the waverunner though. Decided not to assault with the nearby daemon prince as he would have gone in with initiative of 1, and my morale was killed, so I waited.

Next turn more shots were fired from the walkers, but did nothing, and the reinforcement squad started walking towards us. Eldrad buffed the hell out of his squad to reroll invuls, doomed my prince, and came in. Eldrad's had initiative of 6, so went as the same time as the daemon prince, scored 2 wounds, failed an invul save. The entire squad including eldrad apparently wounds on a 2+, and the squad itself only had an invul save of 4+, and rerolled because of buffs. Daemon prince did nothing because of this. The entire squad went, think it was something like 30 attacks, perhaps a little less. 16 ended up wounding after rerolls, was something like 6 1-3s, so daemon prince went down. Avatar charged the kharn squad, and that one actually went in my favor, his rolls were horrible and (killing another berserker) kharn was able to drop him. My phase termicide squad came down, blasted 2 more walkers. I fired 5 plasma cannon shots into eldrad's squad, but with the 4+ invul and rerolling invul, I only took out about 5 of them. Fired every shot I had into that squad, the plague marines had disembarked, so 4 plasma guns, every bolter, bolters from the vanilla CSM squad, and reaper autocannon. Ended up knocking em down to only 2 left plus eldrad. Figured I had it, charged kharn in, kharne killed the last berserkers except for the skull champion, all of his attacks went on eldrad, eldrad saved them all because of invul and rerolling invul. His attacks plus the 2 from the squad ended up doing 2 wounds to kharn, and took another wound from failed fearless roll. I also assaulted the walker squad that had 2 walkers left, walker killed a terminator, chainfist killed a walker. He consolidated the reinforcement squad towards the eldrad assault.

Next turn his reinforcement squad joined into the fray, long range squad shot the entire time at the obliterators but only managed to score 1 wound on them the entire game. Reinforcement squad assaulted the termicide squad, and killed a terminator. Chainfist Terminator and walker ended up killing each other, hilarious amount of 1's. Eldrad went first because of initiative 6, finished off kharn (hilarious that eldrad can take on kharn in an assault with all of those buffs and debuffs). But the skull champion was still alive and ended up finishing off the last of his squadmates. Let me take a second to say that rerolling 4+ invul saves, while dooming your opponent, and wounding on a 2+, is nutty. My turn I took down the last walker with reaper autocannon fire, fired all 5 plasma cannons into the squad of long ranged shots in the building hoping to get a kill point, but with invul save of 2+ and shots scattering, I only killed 3, which was still honestly pretty impressive. I moved my plague marines to assault eldrad to try and keep the skull champion from dieing and giving another kill point, but could only get one in there due to difficult terrain. Charged the plage marines in, eldrad finished off the last skull champion, plague marines did no wounds to eldrad.

Next turn he moved his reinforcement squad into the assault (have fleet so were able to run). Whole lot of nothing happened, I used the plague marines to score 1 kill on the reinforcement squad, but eldrad and the squad were unable to score any kills on the plague marines. The plague marines definitely have survivability in an assault, but seem unable to really score any kills, especially when things are rerolling saves. I never once did 1 wound to eldrad. My turn I moved more plague marines into the assault, got another kill on the reinforcement squad, they got a kill on my plague marines, pretty much just traded back and forth. I had been moving my obliterators towards the building in since I oculdn't fire into the assault, and tried some TL plasma gun fire instead of plasma cannon, but they saved everything, and saved against the autocannon. In all likelihood I should have just been moving everything towards the eldrad assault and ignored them and just toppled in as I had so many more numbers on the table, but with the buffs and superior units, just ended up going poorly over there. Game then ended

He killed Kharn, Khorne berserkers (more specifically, Kharn killed the berserkers), Daemon prince, a Rhino, Termicide Squad, and Predator

I killed Eldrad's squad, Wave, Avatar, squad of walkers, and squad of walkers. So he won by 1. Silly, really, seeing how many more troops I had on the table, one could also blame it on bad rolls I guess, but I find that to really be an excuse for poorly made armies. His army is hands down the worst one up there, but I honestly needed a morale booster from a win, and couldn't even get that! So first step is shelving Kharn I suppose, getting another daemon prince, etc etc. Just disappointing so many already purchased units have to get shelved. Spent a lot of time painting Kharn ;P

--

EDIT

Looking at your list Mannahnin, I like it, but couple of things. Lesser daemons? That works for you? Vanilla CSM over Plague marines? I'm definitely going to incorporate an outflanking Chosen squad, just concerned over the randomness. Termicide squad could go to hell, outflank squad could come in on the wrong side, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I'm examining your 2000 list Mannahin, and you are right, it has a lot of what I have, so I could certainly build towards it. I am going to order another daemon prince, that's happening regardless because these other HQs are simply worthless. The greater daemon seems like a good option as well, so I will have to order one of him as well. Couple of questions

Do you feel as though the 2 10x vanilla CSM could be replaced with 7x plague marines? Plague marines with 2x melta, and a plague champion with power fist ends up being 221, and so I would only need to setup 4 additional plague marines and go with it. I have a 5x with the flamer already (old school CSM Flamer model). Do you feel those lesser daemons are vital? I have 1 lesser daemon, he just came with it for kicks, so I would need to order multiple squads for that. 7 khorne berserkers wouldn't have the same bang as those lesser daemons would?

Thanks for your time!

KingDeath wrote:Oh great, paying almost 300 points for a full 1ksons squad and all you get is the ability to stand in the open

You get a 4++ save, which means that everywhere on the board is a cover save. You're not beholden to hiding in cover, and can basically ignore this part of the game.

You get relentless, which means you don't ever have to think about moving vs. shooting. You can basically ignore this part of the game. Furthermore, this gives you an up to 30" threat range with your basic weapons.

You get a sergeant who comes with a power weapon that causes instant death for free. He can also take a psychic power that includes the phrase "removed from play" with regards to how he hurts enemy units, along with a lot of other options.

You get a 4++ save, which means that you basically treat power fist and power weapon and DCCW attacks as if they were regular close combat attacks.

Your small arm comes with Ap3 which means your opponent absolutely must, under every circumstance, have cover saves. This may not mean much to horde players, but forcing marine armies to behave like horde armies is a real advantage. Being able to hideously gun down monstrous creatures from 30" away is another...

You get fearless. No long shot pinning check failures. No PBS shenannigans. No running and getting caught in a sweep. Like other things mentioned above, you get to basically ignore the part of the rules that talks about morale.

And, of course, all of this comes on a marine chassis, with lots of 4's in their statline and power armor.

They cost 1/2 more than your average marine because they come with a LOT of advantages, and they cost more than 4 guardsmen because they're better than 4 guardsmen. If you can't make good use of everything that 1ksons give you, then yeah, they're expensive marines, but that doesn't mean that they're nothing but expensive marines in every other person's hands.

You get a sergeant who comes with a power weapon that causes instant death for free.

65 points, and that's not counting the cost of a psyker ability. This is the main cost of the unit right here, both due to overcosted powers and the overcosted "Necessary psyker", and if he dies you roll 1D6 for movement, fun!

You get relentless, which means you don't ever have to think about moving vs. shooting. You can basically ignore this part of the game. Furthermore, this gives you an up to 30" threat range with your basic weapons.

Gives you 24-30 range, due to S&P

You get a 4++ save, which means that you basically treat power fist and power weapon and DCCW attacks as if they were regular close combat attacks.

Yes, you'll also strike at I1 regardless of who you are fighting, and have a D6 assault roll. Though this is one of their better advantages mind you.

You get a 4++ save, which means that everywhere on the board is a cover save. You're not beholden to hiding in cover, and can basically ignore this part of the game.

Your small arm comes with Ap3 which means your opponent absolutely must, under every circumstance, have cover saves. This may not mean much to horde players, but forcing marine armies to behave like horde armies is a real advantage. Being able to hideously gun down monstrous creatures from 30" away is another...

If your playing on a board with at least 25% terrain, if not more, than both of these advantages are rather worthless in most cases, generally due in part that 4++ cover save is quite plentiful to find, not to mention the part where you are paying for an advantage which one can easily grab by hiding in nearby ruins, a wreck, or any various thing. Not to mention that if you are forced to walk, you'll end up moving 1D6 through actual cover, not to mention your advantages are far overcosted.

In this mech environment, these advantages are really sort of moot, if you are in one infantry heavy meta..Go for it, and savor their usage.

I find there ability to tie up units in close combat due to their 4++ save very useful. Mine stood off against a Death Company squad with chaplain for three turns before they died taking all but the chaplain with them.

edit: I'd never recommend running Kharn in the berzerker squad for the very reason you mentioned, he can travel with them but split him off as soon as possible and let him wreck havoc on his own.

edit 2:

In regards to your list its all a bit random to be honest.

I would do this, check the points though as I dont have the codex to hand


Drop the prince hes a huge target by himself instead replace with a slannesh sorcerer with lash and melta bombs this guy rides with the berzerkers

Change one unit of plagues to have melta guns, put kharn in this unit but split him off as soon as possible.

drop the pread and dreadnought for a second unit of berzerkers in rhino with a fist.

If your going to send units forward its best to do the rhino rush tactic and leave the oblits at the back taking out the heavy armour.

termicide unit is nice but they cant be relied upon, mine often arrive on turn 5 but still pack a punch. I still wouldnt play without them though.

Last point of rule for chaos dont split your force always hit them on one flank with everything you have as we have less models our units need to support each other.

Any points left over put combi meltas on the berzerker rhinos

Unfortunately I don't see myself sticking with the thousand suns. Even with the information provided they simply have yet to make their points back in any game I've played them with. Although I've lost all 9 games now, for 300 points I've never had them actually kill or destroy 300 points worth. Not denying their usefulness, just not sure they have a place in this particular army setup, which is disappointing because it's wasted money on purchasing the models. Perhaps it'll have some better balance come the new codex whenever that comes out.

Anytime Kharn has separated he's been instant killed, it's too easy, Any lascannon shot, or powerfist hit, and he's instant killed. It's too easy to focus him down when he's by himself, and he causes too many problems when he's with a squad, so he's out. I'm currently searching the market for a daemon prince and a greater daemon. Trying to mimic the list that was linked earlier, I'm thinking perhaps something like

Lash Prince - 155
Chaos Sorcerer w/ MoS, Lash of Slaneesh - 125 (run him with a squad of plague marines in a Rhino).
Greater Daemon - 100
3 x Chas Terminators w/ combi melta- 105
1 x Chaos Dreadnought w/ missle launcher - 100
5 x Chosen Chaos w 3/melta 1/flamer and Chaos Glory in Rhino - 180
5 x Vanilla CSM w/ Flamer and Chaos Glory - 90
7 x Plague Marines w/ 2 Plasma Gun and Plague Champion w/ Power Fist in Rhino - 266
7 x Plague Marines w/ 2 Plasma Gun and Plague Champion w/ Power Fist in Rhino - 266
5 x Chaos Havocs w/ 4 missle launcher and Chaos Glory - 165
3 x Obliterator Cult - 225
3 x Obliterator Cult - 225

--

With this I would only need to purchase a Greater Daemon. Would this be a little more focused and something viable?

Ailaros wrote:

KingDeath wrote:Oh great, paying almost 300 points for a full 1ksons squad and all you get is the ability to stand in the open

You get a 4++ save, which means that everywhere on the board is a cover save. You're not beholden to hiding in cover, and can basically ignore this part of the game.

Since there is usualy sufficient cover on the board as well as the squad's rhino, who cares?

Ailaros wrote:
You get relentless, which means you don't ever have to think about moving vs. shooting. You can basically ignore this part of the game. Furthermore, this gives you an up to 30" threat range with your basic weapons.

Oh great, i can shoot my crappy bolters from 30 inches away. Of course crappy bolters are all i have. Hopefuly my opponents are stupid enough not to hide in their rhinos.

Ailaros wrote:
You get a sergeant who comes with a power weapon that causes instant death for free. He can also take a psychic power that includes the phrase "removed from play" with regards to how he hurts enemy units, along with a lot of other options.

Oh yes...a 70 points ( sorc with cheapest power ) mandatory champion is now an advantage. A 6 inch psychic power which will once in a blue moon remove a unit from play ( and increases the champion's cost to 90 points ) is not an advantage. It is a fricking disease, pointless in almost all cases.

Ailaros wrote:
You get a 4++ save, which means that you basically treat power fist and power weapon and DCCW attacks as if they were regular close combat attacks.

Yes...the two or three powerfist attacks which were always the doom of my normal csm squads...Oh wait...dedicated pw equiped squads will still cut trough 1k sons like butter. They will still wipe them out by turn two and unlike tactical marines, which have a good chance to escape, or normal csms, which are at least cheap, rubrics are both expensive and doomed. Besides that, against non pw or ap3 weapons the expensive rubrics die like normal marines.

Ailaros wrote:
Your small arm comes with Ap3 which means your opponent absolutely must, under every circumstance, have cover saves. This may not mean much to horde players, but forcing marine armies to behave like horde armies is a real advantage. Being able to hideously gun down monstrous creatures from 30" away is another...

No, your opponent just has to keep his marines in their rhinos. Of course, even outside of their rhinos the losses from a round of bolterfire aren't that severe ( as long as they stay out of rapid fire range ).
Monstrous creatures are wounded on a 2+ by str4 weapons. While the ap3 helps this is hardly impressive. The gunning down stuff from 30 inches away is incorrect because "slow and purposeful" limits the squad's movement range.

Ailaros wrote:
You get fearless. No long shot pinning check failures. No PBS shenannigans. No running and getting caught in a sweep. Like other things mentioned above, you get to basically ignore the part of the rules that talks about morale.

While not atsknf, fearless is indeed an advantage. Of course the far superior plaque marines get it too. They also get special weapons, affordable, non mandatory champions, nice grenades, extra toughness, fnp and they are cheaper.

So, the bottom line for 1k sons is that they only work if your opponent is a fool. They have almost no ability to demech your opponent ( and no, your heavy support choices alone won't be even remotely sufficient for that task ). They fail against non meq opponents. They fail against marines in cover or within vehicles. They are at best mediocre against monstrous creatures ( yay, 1,5 wounds from outside rapid fireing range ). They fold in cc against the usual suspects ( although they will survive quite a bit longer than many others, which only makes them an expensive tarpit ) and they die at range against non ap3 weapons just as easily as normal marines ( without providing the firepower of normal marines ). They might be independent from cover but they lack the ability to capitalise from this advantage, that is, they aren't much of a threat to your opponent and won't be shoot at as long as you have actualy threatening stuff on the table.

If given the chance, take plaque marines. Unless you wish to parade them in front of your opponent's plasma cannons/ battlecanons they are far superior. If you wish to save points then take normal csms, they bring sufficient firepower, have some durability ( yay rhinos ) and are disposable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Telsiph wrote:Unfortunately I don't see myself sticking with the thousand suns. Even with the information provided they simply have yet to make their points back in any game I've played them with. Although I've lost all 9 games now, for 300 points I've never had them actually kill or destroy 300 points worth. Not denying their usefulness, just not sure they have a place in this particular army setup, which is disappointing because it's wasted money on purchasing the models. Perhaps it'll have some better balance come the new codex whenever that comes out.

Anytime Kharn has separated he's been instant killed, it's too easy, Any lascannon shot, or powerfist hit, and he's instant killed. It's too easy to focus him down when he's by himself, and he causes too many problems when he's with a squad, so he's out. I'm currently searching the market for a daemon prince and a greater daemon. Trying to mimic the list that was linked earlier, I'm thinking perhaps something like

Lash Prince - 155
Chaos Sorcerer w/ MoS, Lash of Slaneesh - 125 (run him with a squad of plague marines in a Rhino).
Greater Daemon - 100
3 x Chas Terminators w/ combi melta- 105
1 x Chaos Dreadnought w/ missle launcher - 100
5 x Chosen Chaos w 3/melta 1/flamer and Chaos Glory in Rhino - 180
5 x Vanilla CSM w/ Flamer and Chaos Glory - 90
7 x Plague Marines w/ 2 Plasma Gun and Plague Champion w/ Power Fist in Rhino - 266
7 x Plague Marines w/ 2 Plasma Gun and Plague Champion w/ Power Fist in Rhino - 266
5 x Chaos Havocs w/ 4 missle launcher and Chaos Glory - 165
3 x Obliterator Cult - 225
3 x Obliterator Cult - 225

--

With this I would only need to purchase a Greater Daemon. Would this be a little more focused and something viable?

I am not a big fan of Greater Daemons. They are slow and a bit too random for my taste. They are also expensive because you have to factor in the lost champion.
The plaque marine squads might benefit from taking melters. You will probably have to deal with a huge amount of vehicles and plasma guns don't cut it in that regard.
Also remove the powerfists. Without them and the plaque champions you will save quite a few points for relatively little loss ( at most three WS4 swings with a fist won't help you that much against a dread or a dedicated cc unit ) which can be invested into a rhino for your csm squad and perhaps some weapons for the rhinos ( a rhino with a combimelter/combiflamer is far more threatening than a basic rhino ).

I am not a fan of chaos dreads ( too random ) but if you take one then equip it with a multimelter ( afaik the only chance to take one in the current csm dex ) and make sure that it has no direct line of sight to something expensive. Three Oblits per squad are overkill, two tend to be sufficient. The saved 150 points can be invested into a fourth troop choice. The havocs, might benefit from autocannons ( much higher volume of fire ) if you wish to use them against transports.

Telsiph wrote:
Lash Prince - 155
Chaos Sorcerer w/ MoS, Lash of Slaneesh - 125 (run him with a squad of plague marines in a Rhino).
Greater Daemon - 100
3 x Chas Terminators w/ combi melta- 105
1 x Chaos Dreadnought w/ missle launcher - 100
5 x Chosen Chaos w 3/melta 1/flamer and Chaos Glory in Rhino - 180
5 x Vanilla CSM w/ Flamer and Chaos Glory - 90
7 x Plague Marines w/ 2 Plasma Gun and Plague Champion w/ Power Fist in Rhino - 266
7 x Plague Marines w/ 2 Plasma Gun and Plague Champion w/ Power Fist in Rhino - 266
5 x Chaos Havocs w/ 4 missle launcher and Chaos Glory - 165
3 x Obliterator Cult - 225
3 x Obliterator Cult - 225

--

With this I would only need to purchase a Greater Daemon. Would this be a little more focused and something viable?

I'm not running my TSons currently either they are good but only in the right situation, they shine the most against space marine armies due to AP3, against Eldar I wouldn't use them.

In regards to your new list there are a few points that I'd like to point out.

Your greater demon needs a champion to summon him and you only have two both very expensive champs which I would rather keep alive than replace them with a GD..

You have no dedicated close combat guys so you will be playing the mid field game drop the GD and the DP they are not worth it for the army you have built, If you were using berzerkers it would be a different matter.

If you're going to stay mid range I'd replace the GD and DP with another squad of Plague marines with Plasma, I'd drop the CSM unit as well to get the points needed. In return give each PM unit a icon to help the termies Deep strike in and the oblits depending on the mission.

If you have points left over increase the chosen unit to 5 melta guns so they can toast any tank when they come on, they wont live much longer so need to do maximum impact on the turn they arrive.

Most people will say to drop the dread but I ran one with the same layout in my last tournament and he done quite well supporting my oblits (in front of course).

I hope this helps at the end of the day run what you feel suits your play style and dont be afraid to use your favourite models like kharn, its just a case of working out the best way to use them. I've seen a player give him his own dedicated Land Raider and it worked quite well as he can assault out of it!

KingDeath wrote:

I am not a fan of chaos dreads ( too random ) but if you take one then equip it with a multimelter ( afaik the only chance to take one in the current csm dex ) and make sure that it has no direct line of sight to something expensive.

The obliterators give you multi-melta as well.

bogalubov wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

I am not a fan of chaos dreads ( too random ) but if you take one then equip it with a multimelter ( afaik the only chance to take one in the current csm dex ) and make sure that it has no direct line of sight to something expensive.

The obliterators give you multi-melta as well.

Hehe, true, i forgot them.

GiraffeX wrote:

Telsiph wrote:
Lash Prince - 155
Chaos Sorcerer w/ MoS, Lash of Slaneesh - 125 (run him with a squad of plague marines in a Rhino).
Greater Daemon - 100
3 x Chas Terminators w/ combi melta- 105
1 x Chaos Dreadnought w/ missle launcher - 100
5 x Chosen Chaos w 3/melta 1/flamer and Chaos Glory in Rhino - 180
5 x Vanilla CSM w/ Flamer and Chaos Glory - 90
7 x Plague Marines w/ 2 Plasma Gun and Plague Champion w/ Power Fist in Rhino - 266
7 x Plague Marines w/ 2 Plasma Gun and Plague Champion w/ Power Fist in Rhino - 266
5 x Chaos Havocs w/ 4 missle launcher and Chaos Glory - 165
3 x Obliterator Cult - 225
3 x Obliterator Cult - 225

--

With this I would only need to purchase a Greater Daemon. Would this be a little more focused and something viable?

I'm not running my TSons currently either they are good but only in the right situation, they shine the most against space marine armies due to AP3, against Eldar I wouldn't use them.

In regards to your new list there are a few points that I'd like to point out.

Your greater demon needs a champion to summon him and you only have two both very expensive champs which I would rather keep alive than replace them with a GD..

You have no dedicated close combat guys so you will be playing the mid field game drop the GD and the DP they are not worth it for the army you have built, If you were using berzerkers it would be a different matter.

If you're going to stay mid range I'd replace the GD and DP with another squad of Plague marines with Plasma, I'd drop the CSM unit as well to get the points needed. In return give each PM unit a icon to help the termies Deep strike in and the oblits depending on the mission.

If you have points left over increase the chosen unit to 5 melta guns so they can toast any tank when they come on, they wont live much longer so need to do maximum impact on the turn they arrive.

Most people will say to drop the dread but I ran one with the same layout in my last tournament and he done quite well supporting my oblits (in front of course).

I hope this helps at the end of the day run what you feel suits your play style and dont be afraid to use your favourite models like kharn, its just a case of working out the best way to use them. I've seen a player give him his own dedicated Land Raider and it worked quite well as he can assault out of it!

I think the new list you have is better than before, but it's still low on bodies. I would recommend fleshing out your troop spots.

lash prince
lash sorcerer

3x terminators combi
10x csm 2x melta icon of chaos glory rhino
10x csm 2x melta icon of chaos glory rhino
5x chosen 3x melta 1 flamer rhino
7 x Plague Marines w/ 2 Plasma Gun and Plague Champion w/ Power Fist in Rhino - 266
7 x Plague Marines w/ 2 Plasma Gun and Plague Champion w/ Power Fist in Rhino - 266
5 x Chaos Havocs w/ 4 missle launcher and Chaos Glory - 165
2 x Obliterator Cult - 150
2 x Obliterator Cult - 150