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Hey guys, I got a wild hair so I started writing a Protoss codex. Here is the troops and I'll be adding more to this but, I just wanted to know what you thought, hope you like.

Updates are in yellow.

TROOPS

Dragoon.......50 pts

WS BS S F S R
1 4 5 10 10 10

Type: Vehicle (Walker)
Composition: 1-3 Dragoons
Wargear: Photon Cannon, Plasma Shield
Special rules: Protoss Armored Infantry
Options:
May take
Singularity Charge........25 pts

Singlarity Charge: Increase the max range of the Dragoon's weapon to 30 inches.
Photon Cannon:
Range Strength AP Type
24" 6 3 Heavy 1
Protoss Armored Infantry: Dragoons are counted as scoring troops for the purposes of objectives.
Plasma Shield: Plasma shield confers a 5+ invulnerable.

Zealot.......25 pts per model

WS BS S T W I A LD Sv
5 0 4 4 1 3 2 8 3+

Type: Infantry

Composition: 5-10 Zealots

Wargear: Psi Blades, Plasma Shield
Special Rules: Furious Charge, Fearless

Options:
The Tribe may take
Leg Enhancements.....5 pts per model

Psi Blades: Psi Blades are rending and count as a set of two close combat weapons.
Leg Enhancements: Zealots have the fleet universal special rule.
Plasma Shield: Plasma shield grants the Feel no Pain universal special rule.

Sentry.....30 ptsper model

WS BS S T W I A LD Sv
3 4 3 3 1 2 1 8 6+

Type: Infantry
Composition: 1-3 Sentries
Wargear: Disruption Beam, Plasma Shield
Special rules:, Psyker
Options:
the tribe may take the following phychic powers:
Force Field........15 pts per model
Guardian Shield....30 pts per model

Disruption Beam:
Range Strength AP Type
24" 3 - Assault 3
Force Field: Place a large blast marker anywhare within 24" of the Sentry.
The blast marker must be scattered. The area under the marker becomes impassible terrain.
All units caught under the blast marker are moved the minimium distants to clear the blast.
Guardian Shield: All Protoss units is within 12 inches recieve a 3+ cover save.

Why not make Dragoons T5 with 2 wounds? Why are Zeaots WS 6? Why do they have two wounds? They shouldn't have the option for a 12" assault, much less 12" movements. 24 Inch Assault?

Also, Sentries are WAY undercosted. Lascannons, Autocannons, Heavy Bolters, and the like are all S3? That's.... ridiculous.


Overall, most of this stuff is OP and needs some serious toning down.

Guardian shield makes your scoring dragoons invulnerable to shooting. That's just a flat out no. No, no, no. Not allowed.

Hells no to all of these.

Here's my take

Elite

Dragoon = 50-60pts

Unit composition = 1-3 models

Monstrous Creature

WS1 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I2 A1 2+ sv

Wargear - Phase Disruptor, plasma shielding

Special Rules - MTC, fearless, relentless

Phase Disrupter - 24" Range, S6 AP3 Heavy 1

Plasma Shielding - 4+ invul save

Upgrades =
Singularity Charge = increase phase disruptor range to 30. +15 pts

JUSTIFICATION

Considering how the dragoon is a large sized unit in game, it is likely that it would have a stat line similar to a MC. However, as zerglings can tear it apart with ease, it is therefore absolutely horrible in CC, which is represented by its low WS, ini and A values.

The Phase Disruptor is AP3 to represent its effectiveness at countering heavy armor, and its S6 as that would be the value required to inflict ID on a human. In one of the cinematics, a single shot from a dragoon completely vaporized a human officer.

Move Through Cover and relentless is to represent it being a quadrupedal weapons platform

Zealots 20-30pts per model

Unit composition = 5- 10 models

Troops

Infantry

WS5 BS0 S4 T4 W1 I3 A2 3+ sv

Wargear - psi blades, plasma shielding

Special Rules = Furious Charge, stubborn

Psi blades = Power weapons. In addition, they confer an extra attack to the zealot

plasma Shielding - 4+ invul

Upgrades = Leg augmentation - Gives the zealots fleet. 5pts per model.

JUSTIFICATION

Due to the unit's stature in game, I figured that it would have a stat line similar to that of a space marine. However, I never thought of protoss being particularly fast, hence their I3
As they are CC specialists, they would have better WS than a SM.

Since they are fanatics, they are stubborn.

Psi Blades need not necessarily be power weapons. It still takes them a couple of hits to kill Terran marines. I think rending is more appropriate, but meh, to each his own.

What's the deal with giving invul saves to everybody? 4+ invuls on everything wouldn't be balanced in the slightest. 5+ at best, IMHO.

Cryonicleech wrote:Psi Blades need not necessarily be power weapons. It still takes them a couple of hits to kill Terran marines. I think rending is more appropriate, but meh, to each his own.

What's the deal with giving invul saves to everybody? 4+ invuls on everything wouldn't be balanced in the slightest. 5+ at best, IMHO.

I dunno...those psi blades do look pretty dangerous, and sort of energy-looking.
Then again, rending does make more sense I guess, since it still takes them a while to kill heavily armored targets.
Maybe Warp Blades as powered then, I guess? Dark Templar can kill most basic infantry in 1-2 hits.

The reason why I gave them a 4+ invul is because they can shrug off siege cannon hits. It just made sense to me to give them that.

Cryonicleech wrote:Why not make Dragoons T5 with 2 wounds?

well, all of this is me trying to translate between stat systems. I had thought about making the Dragoon a walker, but it isn't good at cc at all. I thought of making it a light tank but now that I'm reading comments, the Dragoon and stalker isn't as durable as the Reaver or immortal.

Why are Zeaots WS 6?

If you read the book "Queen of Blades" Raynor overlooks a fight when Zeratul and Tassadar first meet and he described it as if they had profected melee combat to the point that it didn't look like a fight, but a dance.

Why do they have two wounds?

Yeah, I think dropping the lots down to 1 wound can do.

They shouldn't have the option for a 12" assault, much less 12" movements. 24 Inch Assault?

Well, I think that's why Blizzard didn't go with both when they moved to SC2, What I was going for when translating them was make a beefier Howling Banshee that was slower in cc, but beefier Genestealers seem to be a better fit.

Also, Sentries are WAY undercosted. Lascannons, Autocannons, Heavy Bolters, and the like are all S3? That's.... ridiculous.

Yeah, it's going to need some adjustment but, I just tried to introduce that wonderful defensive unit.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cryonicleech wrote:What's the deal with giving invul saves to everybody? 4+ invuls on everything wouldn't be balanced in the slightest. 5+ at best, IMHO.

What I was trying to translate with that is the Protoss shields, every Protoss has a shield of some strength. For example the Archon is 350 shield and 10 health ish, so what I was thinking for the Archon was T3 W1 2+ invuln.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Maybe Warp Blades as powered then, I guess? Dark Templar can kill most basic infantry in 1-2 hits.

Yeah, for Dark Templar I was thinking of something like a powerfist at WS 6 and Zeratul will have a Mastercrafted thunderhammer at WS 9, because come on it's Zeratul.

Nah mate. Fists and hammers don't work that well. I mean, they are still using swords.

Now, a power weapon that gives 2D6 armor penetration and rerolls to wound, that would fit the effect of a warp blade a bit better.

As for the guardian shield, why not just have it confer a reroll to saves? That's a lot better than reducing everything to S3.

Firstly I think the answer would be no to including starcraft into 40k. 2nd, I haven't played SC2 yet.

Still, I think the protoss shields should work like wounds, and because they slowly regenerate maybe make it like feel no pain, or feel no pain with a harder target # (5+ or 6+). Having the extra wound from a shield also makes the model immune to instant death. I think these changes would be the best representation of how the units work in game.

The protoss blades are psychic energy aren't they? I think that would be as good as power weapons. For terran marines keep in mind how huge that armor is, it could count as an exo suit and be adding W and T to the humans. So a power weapon vs a multi wound model would take more hits to kill, but there wouldn't be a save.

I don't think dragoons should have relentless.

The dark templar getting a high strength weapon with rending sounds appropriate. Remember that vs vehicles they would be going against rear armor, which is usually 10.

Zealot WS is not 6. Protoss are kind've crap compared to the skill of eldar. At best they are WS 4, unless harlequins have higher. I also don't think they get more than 1 attack, +1 for 2 weapons.

I'll try to help out more, but I don't know if i'll be able to.

Cool idea, but it would be a shame if someone made a Zerg codex and they kept loosing to Zerg Rushes

OK, so if we may close on the Zealots, I think this will satisfy everyone as far as the powerful unit it should be vs the need for balence.

Zealot.......25 pts per model

WS BS S T W I A LD Sv
5 0 4 4 1 3 2 10 3+

Type: Infantry
Composition: 5-10 Zealots
Wargear: Psi Blades, Plasma Shield
Special Rules: Furious Charge, Fearless

Options:
The Tribe may take
Leg Enhancements.....5 pts per model

Psi Blades: Psi Blades are rending and count as a set of two close combat weapons.
Leg Enhancements: Zealots have the Fleet universal special rule.
Plasma Shield: Plasma shield grants the Feel no Pain universal special rule.

Plasma Shield on infantry can give FnP as long as as Plasma Shield on the vehicles gives an invulnerable like Flicker Field.
WS 5 is satisfies the fluff of them training for hundreds of years, so compared to a Gaurdsmen or a Hormagaunt they will be unbelievable in CC.
The 3+ and FnP satisfies me as far as durability.
Psi Blades can be CCW with rending as long as we agree Warp Blades are definitely powerweapons.
I think they should be fearless. They fear know evil, for the Khala is their strength!
All in all, we're looking at a 125-300 point sqaud that are going to rock in CC and are going to be a pain in the butt to kill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
JUSTIFICATION

Considering how the dragoon is a large sized unit in game, it is likely that it would have a stat line similar to a MC. However, as zerglings can tear it apart with ease, it is therefore absolutely horrible in CC, which is represented by its low WS, ini and A values.

The Phase Disruptor is AP3 to represent its effectiveness at countering heavy armor, and its S6 as that would be the value required to inflict ID on a human. In one of the cinematics, a single shot from a dragoon completely vaporized a human officer.

Move Through Cover and relentless is to represent it being a quadrupedal weapons platform

I do like making the Dragoon a MC and a stat line that should clearly say that this is for ranged support of the Zealots.
If you watch the animation of the Dragoon, it clearly stops, opens it's weapons bay, and fires....I don't think relentless would fit it well.
I thiink Dragoons should still be basic troops because I don't feel the jump from Gateway to Cybernetic Core is a big enough jump to say, "OK, these guys are the elite Protoss."
For that same reason, I was thinking based on it's role the Stalker should be a fast attack but, now I'm thinking the Stalker should be a basic troop choice.

Warp blades are probably ignoring armor saves, psi blades could be rending.

I dont' know if LD 10 is right. Protoss don't seem perfect enough to have it that high. Maybe 8-9. I agree on the fearless though, maybe stubborn too.

The 3+ armor seems to high, just too much of them is exposed.

I think 5 pts each for fleet is too much, it should be something like 20 or 25 for the entire squad.

You have to remember that FnP doesn't get rolled vs power weapons and stuff with good AP (I think), so it doesn't make as much sense vs those. I still think the extra wound thing is a good way to do it. If you really don't like it then I'm thinking about 1 of the dark eldar fields, but it wouldn't work for a whole unit... So the only other thing I can see is an invulnerable save.

From a fluff perspective, a single swipe from a Zealot's psi-blades will cut right through a marine's armor like butter. It also does similar damage to vehicle armor. The closest thing in WH40K to the lethality of psi-blades would be a power fist.

Obviously, you can't give a troop choice a bunch of power fists for free, so I would think power weapons work fine. A dark templar's warp blade, on the other hand, would make sense as counting as having a power fist.

Anyway, it's difficult to make a fluffy zealot that's balanced because while the zealot is the Protoss' "troop choice", its actual abilities and stats are more akin to the "elite" choices in a codex. Zealots have faster than human reflexes, can turn intangible, have telepathy and mind-control powers, shields that make power armor look bad, battlefield pre-cognition, super strength, and astartes level durability.

Here's a thread I made awhile back that shows a Zealot's capabilities from an actual fluff perspective.

I crunched some numbers using the law of averages, I match 6 squads of Zealots vs 6 sqauds of TACs equipped with ML, Melta and 6 Razorback with TL Las.

In scenerio 1 the SM held back and stood their ground, the Zealots got their butt handed to them.

In scenerio 2 the SM pushed forward with the Razorback, and the battle was quite bloody.

I think the last stat sheet I posted is a good balence. Now, shall we move on?

MY LIFE FOR AIUR.

broodstar wrote:I crunched some numbers using the law of averages, I match 6 squads of Zealots vs 6 sqauds of TACs equipped with ML, Melta and 6 Razorback with TL Las.

In scenerio 1 the SM held back and stood their ground, the Zealots got their butt handed to them.

In scenerio 2 the SM pushed forward with the Razorback, and the battle was quite bloody.

I think the last stat sheet I posted is a good balence. Now, shall we move on?

No. We must all discuss this until hell freezes over. it is the only way

BlaxicanX wrote:

broodstar wrote:I crunched some numbers using the law of averages, I match 6 squads of Zealots vs 6 sqauds of TACs equipped with ML, Melta and 6 Razorback with TL Las.

In scenerio 1 the SM held back and stood their ground, the Zealots got their butt handed to them.

In scenerio 2 the SM pushed forward with the Razorback, and the battle was quite bloody.

I think the last stat sheet I posted is a good balence. Now, shall we move on?

No. We must all discuss this until hell friezes over. it is the only way

lol

Make a dragoon a walker with like strength five or six. I'd also much rather it have av 11. It seems super silly that it can be blown apart or lose it's weapon as easily as it can. I mean, it's a lot tougher than a stalker or a lot of units out there and it seems really vulnerable to auto cannon or scatter laser shots for that. Should a single Banshee's probably typhoon missile launcher be enough to pop a dragoon?

You also want to think about what AV other mechanical units will be if the dragoon is already just about as low as can be.

You could also reduce the range of crap shooting in with guardian shield. It could also do strength or AP reduction or stop double rolls for penetration. It could also be improving cover/ invulnerable saves.

I think the zealot movement options are a little too awesome at of now.

I also think think that you could have squadrons with stalkers and dragoons mixed in, that might be neat.

Lucre wrote:Make a dragoon a walker with like strength five or six. I'd also much rather it have av 11. It seems super silly that it can be blown apart or lose it's weapon as easily as it can. I mean, it's a lot tougher than a stalker or a lot of units out there and it seems really vulnerable to auto cannon or scatter laser shots for that. Should a single Banshee's probably typhoon missile launcher be enough to pop a dragoon?

Yeah, I had just worked out the math using CthuluIsSpy's template vs the same squads the Zealots faced. The Dragoons will have to be buffed, theoretically they will only kill 2 Lasbacks let alone the 60 marines.

You also want to think about what AV other mechanical units will be if the dragoon is already just about as low as can be.

The Dragoon should be a medium AV I'll try it with 11 or 12 and see how that works, The Stalker should definately be fast and light AV, the Immortal is going to be a tricky mechanic it'll have to be able to laugh at Lascannons yet be torn apart by bolters. The Scout, Phenix, Warp Prism and Corsair will be Fast Attack and therefore light. The Reaver most likely won't need much armor because of the 72" gun, the Void Ray wont need much armor because it'll have a Convertion Beamer, Carrier will be 14 all around and be a flying Landraider with no weapons, and should be open topped because of the hanger. The arbiter will be light and have nice support and control abilities. the Colossus will be fun to write, I'm just not sure what AV to asign to it.

You could also reduce the range of crap shooting in with guardian shield. It could also do strength or AP reduction or stop double rolls for penetration. It could also be improving cover/ invulnerable saves.

I was at my local shop and one guy suggested to make Guardian Shield like Psychic Hood, so for a roll off, the attack is stopped or goes through.

I also think think that you could have squadrons with stalkers and dragoons mixed in, that might be neat.

The problem with that is, this game doesn't really support mixing sqauds and sqaudrons. Another question I would have for that thought is, when the Stalkers Blink, what happens to the Dragoons?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was thinking of putting the Mothership in as a HQ chioce, but I think that is best left for a super heavy.

Immortals: Invuln equal to AP of weapon, up to 2++

Glad my input hit home, I usually feel like a blathering idiot on this board.

Consider strange versions of guardian shields and protoss shields. I hate to have the act exactly like the cover everyone else is getting anyway.

I would Zealot Legs could add fleet and moves through cover rules. I was also initially very attracted to them moving like beasts with their upgrade, but that would stop it form existing in 2 parts. Maybe Charge could give them the furious charge USR and an extra d6 on the charge?


Concerning Charge-Lots and other fast melee units like Speed-Lings represented in 40k, I'd consider giving them a bonus to sweeping advance or fearless combat resolution wounds. I think it is somewhat apt.

Cloak will be an interesting mechanic to show.

It might be an elegant solution to why marines can take out armored vehicles by giving them some sort of low strength rending attack, or some modified version of rending along those lines.

...You guys do know the Protoss are simply ripoffs of the Eldar in the first place, right? Why not just use the Eldar rules?

You're tying that eternaldarkness guy for most pedantic and unhelpful posts at the moment. If you don't understand, or for some reason, can't cognify what this forum is for, then perhaps you should see this post.

You know the Eldar are simply ripoffs of tolkien elves in the first place, right? Why not just read books?

Oh right, because some of us like to have fun.

Starcraft was supposed to be a GW game but GW pulled out.

This thread is about me writting a Codex and getting advise on mechanics translation and balence issues.

I will not let you hijack this thread!

If you'd like to have a Starcraft vs 40k discussion pm me or make it in General Disscussion.

Thank You.

My 2cents on design philosophy here: It's easier to create and incorporate a simple to understand special rule or method than to rape the existing system into accepting a transfer.

Secondly, capturing the fluff of the army is much more important than capturing an accurate mechanical representation in regards to fandexes in my opinion.

With this in mind, I present the following options

1) Squad sizes all go up to 12. Nothing says "Starcraft" like selecting up to 12 models for movement.

2) Overcost everything by a little, but make sure there's the unspoken "This could come down 10% and be fine" - when the dex is finished, drop the points on everything 10% and it will be fine.

3) balance by finding the break point, figuring the cause of brokenness, and scaling that back. Sometimes it's not a points issue, but an interference with basegame mechanics. Sometimes you just need to make a list that maxes out a single unit in its best circumstances in order to figure out what breaks that unit.


This said: Zealots at 25ppm in squad sizes of 4-12 would be fine with fleet, and a 5 point upgrade to 12" assault. 300+ point assault squads need to have SOMETHING going for them, or they get squashed, especially at a mere I4 on the charge. Look at bloodcrushers, for instance: 40 ppm, but they get the works - 2wounds, power weapons, higher str and ini, invulns... very decent unit, but has no support around it except for one, single, build - Max Crushers and get Fateweaver. This is not conductive to 'fun' play, as it either 'crushers' the enemy, or flops. Having zealots able to reach the enemy without a guarantee of actually killing them is much more interactive for both sides!

Edit: Another route you could go would be to directly incorporate mineral costs as army costs, and have most armies composed of 12 units. So we get a Zealot as an MC with WS7 S6 T6 W4 I5 A4 Ld10 Sv3+/5++ FNP regenerate, or something crazy like that, at 100 points.

chrisrawr wrote:Immortals: Invuln equal to AP of weapon, up to 2++

Doesn't the Immortal's shield also apply in melee? I guess we'll have to wait and see if 6e really does give melee weapons AP values. Also, might be a tad odd for rending.

Kain wrote:

chrisrawr wrote:Immortals: Invuln equal to AP of weapon, up to 2++

Doesn't the Immortal's shield also apply in melee? I guess we'll have to wait and see if 6e really does give melee weapons AP values. Also, might be a tad odd for rending.

Hmmm, good point. Perhaps a "Strength 6+" method, but I think you could also do "+1 front armour for every str above 6" so that they always pen on a 6+?

My life for NERZUL... Oh wait...

chrisrawr wrote:

Kain wrote:

chrisrawr wrote:Immortals: Invuln equal to AP of weapon, up to 2++

Doesn't the Immortal's shield also apply in melee? I guess we'll have to wait and see if 6e really does give melee weapons AP values. Also, might be a tad odd for rending.

Hmmm, good point. Perhaps a "Strength 6+" method, but I think you could also do "+1 front armour for every str above 6" so that they always pen on a 6+?

Yes that would help prevent weirdness such as your weapons actually becoming less effective when they rend.