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"Immortal Shielding - Weapons may never roll more than 1D6 to penetrate an Immortal's AV, and always require a 6 to Penetrate. The Immortal has a 5+ Invulnerable Save."

Phoenix.......75 pts

BS F S R
4 10 10 10

Type: Vehicle (Skimmer)
Composition: 1 Phoenix
Wargear: 2 Ion Cannons, Plasma Shield
Special rules: Protoss Flyer, Graviton Beam

Options:
May take
Anion Pulse-Crystals........25 pts

Protoss Flyer: ignores all terrain and can not be assaulted except by jump-infantry and Jet-bikes and can not be rammed except by Skimmers. The Flyer can never take a cover save because of intervening terrain, and all weapons wishing to fire at a Flyer ignore line of sight restictions.
Anion Pulse-Crystals: Increase the max range of the Phoenix weapons to 30".
Ion Cannon:
Range Strength AP Type
24" 8 3 Heavy 2 *
Ion Cannons may be fired even if the Phoenix has moved Flat-Out. Ion Cannons may only be fired at Jump-infantry, Jet-bikes and Skimmers.
Graviton Beam: During the shooting phase, target model within 12" can't make any action until that units next turn. The Phoenix can't make any other action while using Graviton Beam.
Plasma Shield: Plasma shield confers a 5+ invulnerable.

This thing has "I'm going to kill Tau" written all over it.

broodstar wrote:Phoenix.......75 pts

BS F S R
4 10 10 10

Type: Vehicle (Skimmer)
Composition: 1 Phoenix
Wargear: 2 Ion Cannons, Plasma Shield
Special rules: Protoss Flyer, Graviton Beam

Options:
May take
Anion Pulse-Crystals........25 pts

Protoss Flyer: ignores all terrain and can not be assaulted except by jump-infantry and Jet-bikes and can not be rammed except by Skimmers. The Flyer can never take a cover save because of intervening terrain, and all weapons wishing to fire at a Flyer ignore line of sight restictions.
Anion Pulse-Crystals: Increase the max range of the Phoenix weapons to 30".
Ion Cannon:
Range Strength AP Type
24" 8 3 Heavy 2 *
Ion Cannons may be fired even if the Phoenix has moved Flat-Out. Ion Cannons may only be fired at Jump-infantry, Jet-bikes and Skimmers.
Graviton Beam: During the shooting phase, target model within 12" can't make any action until that units next turn. The Phoenix can't make any other action while using Graviton Beam.
Plasma Shield: Plasma shield confers a 5+ invulnerable.

This thing has "I'm going to kill Tau" written all over it.

One yahoo with a broadside battlesuit and some markerlighters are all it's going to take to send that thing crashing down.

Additionally, a unit that can only fire at certain kinds of units isn't terribly useful. All someone has to do is build a jump, jet, and skimmer free list (easy to do) and the unit is completely incapable of doing anything at all besides zip around and hope someone shoots at it instead of something more valuable.

Kain wrote:
One yahoo with a broadside battlesuit and some markerlighters are all it's going to take to send that thing crashing down.

Additionally, a unit that can only fire at certain kinds of units isn't terribly useful. All someone has to do is build a jump, jet, and skimmer free list (easy to do) and the unit is completely incapable of doing anything at all besides zip around and hope someone shoots at it instead of something more valuable.

Sir, I think you underestimate the beauty of control.
When it runs out of targets it tells legendaries like Abbadon, Swarmlord and Stormcaller to shutup.
OK let's say you tailer for that, that takes out Hammerhead, Crisis Suit, Devil Fish, and Pirhanas, oh and no Drones. With one unit I got you to take away your tanks, Drones and most importantly...your mobility. With one unit I got you to play gunline, for 75-225 points I got you to play the game I want you to play.
So, what you have left to build a list with is Stealth Suit, Firewarriors without transports, Pathfinders, and Broadside. The only thing that makes that close to viable is the Broadsides. But then again, Tau aren't going to have the same book forever.

I don't have a big problem with the vehicle version of the Dragoons, but you do kill them in CC, so AV 10 or counts as AV 10 in CC should be in there somewhere if it stays a vehicle.
There was some OP stuff on there.
The second post of Zealots is good.
Curious, if they have one or two attacks base as the psi blades count as two weapons which with 2 base would give them three attacks or one base and (2) in parenthesis as I did there.
Rending is better than power weapoins on the blade because rending on a 6 gets an extra 1d3 to Armor pen which means that the Zealots can be pretty good against vehicles with the charge, even on rare occasions glancing a Land Raider. (Angry face, as I always make angry face whenever I mention the Land Raider.)

Also Dragoons are definately troops.

The Sentry entry I'm not fond of, to be blunt.
It started out cool, until the everything counts as st 3...
Within 6" of a unit of Sentry's (sentries...) Protoss models (not units) are granted a 3+ invulnerable save.
Or something like that, and then, also, make it more expensive.

The thing that makes the 12" range buff, not worth a hundred points, even though it's good, and I think the power of the weapons you listed should be switched. Blast being 5-4 and 2 shot being 8-3.

The weapon and singularity charge posted in the, here's my take thing were pretty good.
(It was a good take, but I think the two ideas should be merged. I don't remember the Dragoon even really striking back at all in CC.)
As a vehicle it having two weapons without upgrades increases its cost. (Maybe it should also only be able to fire one weapon a turn, as not moving it right now would let it fire both...unless that's what you're going for...)

I haven't made many protoss so far, but I think Zealots fit into the assault terminator slot quite nicely as well. Twin lightning claws and heavy armour matches up well with what they appear to be armed with, the energy shields in particular. So I agree with the later incarnation of the Zealot.

The sentry could work like a Mek's KFF? This already does a similar job in a similar slot in the army.


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AnomanderRake wrote:...You guys do know the Protoss are simply ripoffs of the Eldar in the first place, right? Why not just use the Eldar rules?

Because the make-up of a Protoss army is nothing like that of an Eldar one. They only have 1 proper infantry unit and it really doesn't fit in with banshees very well at all.

I'd like it if you could attach a lot of these units to other units.

For instance, you will often see zealots wandering in a clump of another unit, in order to tank hits and provide some relatively high damage against short ranged attackers and for the relatively high damage they do vs concave they take up / number of units can surround them.

If zealots came in packs, but could be split up to join other units, like say wolfguard / incarnations of warlocks / crypteks / homunculi that would be pretty neat. It would also help enforce the need to have zealot legs on some of them before doing this, while throwing them in with faster units like stalkers.

I think wound allocation is a pretty neat representation of how this tends to work in both games. It will be hard to make a tactic like the classic first zealot and 2 stalkers push work though... Maybe if the zealot was an IC and could leave the bunch when they got close, or the stalkers wanted to peel back, that would work alright.

I think for the purpose of allowing tanking with melee units, while ranged units attempt to get in shots, you may need to give a whole lot of these guys Hit And Run USR and maybe bigger fallback or consolidation control/moves.

I

erikwfg wrote:Firstly I think the answer would be no to including starcraft into 40k. 2nd, I haven't played SC2 yet.

Starcraft is 40k. Zerg=Tyranids, Protos=Eldar, Terran=Space Marines.

It's a complete rip off of the 40k universe.

skycapt44 wrote:

erikwfg wrote:Firstly I think the answer would be no to including starcraft into 40k. 2nd, I haven't played SC2 yet.

Starcraft is 40k. Zerg=Tyranids, Protos=Eldar, Terran=Space Marines.

It's a complete rip off of the 40k universe.

Some people don't mind potentially neutering other peoples fun, just so they've got something to say.
How does this contribute, besides the little bump on the board?

"You guys should just put this out of your mind, they've already done it for you."
Clearly they haven't, and we wouldn't have started if we didn't think it was a fun exercise.

Besides that, the comparisons between eldar and protoss are only sort of thematically similar. They occupy a very similar role in their respective mythos and have some similar alieny-stuff going on, but are very different in play and in flavor.

Just a quick note, dragoons had REALLY short range before singularity.
Marines had range 5, 6 with U237(?) shells.
Dragoons had 4(!) to start and 6(?) with singularity.

Orks could probably shoot farther than a goon. So sad.

Lucre wrote:I'd like it if you could attach a lot of these units to other units.

For instance, you will often see zealots wandering in a clump of another unit, in order to tank hits and provide some relatively high damage against short ranged attackers and for the relatively high damage they do vs concave they take up / number of units can surround them.

If zealots came in packs, but could be split up to join other units, like say wolfguard / incarnations of warlocks / crypteks / homunculi that would be pretty neat. It would also help enforce the need to have zealot legs on some of them before doing this, while throwing them in with faster units like stalkers.

I think wound allocation is a pretty neat representation of how this tends to work in both games. It will be hard to make a tactic like the classic first zealot and 2 stalkers push work though... Maybe if the zealot was an IC and could leave the bunch when they got close, or the stalkers wanted to peel back, that would work alright.

I think for the purpose of allowing tanking with melee units, while ranged units attempt to get in shots, you may need to give a whole lot of these guys Hit And Run USR and maybe bigger fallback or consolidation control/moves.

I

I like it and I don't like it. The thought of having Lot/Archon or Lot/Stalker is a fun mechanic but, then you could have tanks that act like infantry.
Think of how Swarmlord is able to get a cover save just because his gaurd is in cover, now that's cool because they're his gaurd.
But when you have a Reaver, Carrier or Voidray that you can't get rid of because it joined a squad of Lots, then in becomes a little OP.

Well you can make reavers a vehicle Or critter that cannot be joined because of type or unit size restrictions and I doubt you'd be able to reason an ic joining a lone wolf flier or skimmer to anyone.

Interesting thoughts though.

I'm wondering whether the Colossus should be apocalypse only or not. Probably not though, a real titan would dwarf it and a battlefortress or baneblade would massively outgun it.

Kain wrote:I'm wondering whether the Colossus should be apocalypse only or not. Probably not though, a real titan would dwarf it and a battlefortress or baneblade would massively outgun it.

Naw when I think of the Colossus, I'm thinking of like Banewolf (the flamer chimera) or Tyrannofex.

The Colossus doesn't scream SH but, HS anti-infantry. It's heat Lances I was thinking either an extended range heavy flamer with 2 shots or an extended range Twin-linked heavy flamer.

I think it should also be on a Dreadnought base and stand as tall as a Trygon or Dreadknight.

As far as Cliffwalker, it should be able to ignore difficult/dangrous terrain.

The carrier should definitely be superheavy and apocalypse only, might need a bit of a buff since compared to the Manta it's a little weeny.

Kain wrote:The carrier should definitely be superheavy and apocalypse only, might need a bit of a buff since compared to the Manta it's a little weeny.

In SC and SC2 games, nothing is really to scale. Carriers are massive spaceships. Tassadar killed the Overmind with one.

Also, aside from being Psychic and the enigmatic alien race, the Protoss and Eldar have nothing in common.

Why not do collossus' attack like the doomscythe's doomray of dooooooom? 2 S8 AP2 lines that must intersect.

Fliers will be tricky, but I think that is going to be any port to WH40K.

I like colossus in the normal play, I just think it'll be hard to implement it's weaknesses.


I was thinking about the stalker. I wonder if it would be apt for it to always be able to move d6 in the assault phase.

Why not just give Stalkers the Jet Pack's or Eldar Jetbike's special assault move? Don't limit it to D6, just let em jump 6".

You really want to bring SC into warhammer?
It is common knowledge that STARCRAFT RIPPED OFF 40k!

OH NO! YOU FOUND OUR SECRET AND NOW WE ALL HAVE TO STOP HAVING FUN FOREVER!

Or you could read the thread before posting that would be cool, too.

Hey, broodstar, and good initiative on attempting a Protoss codex. If balanced out, they could be a fun army to play, I'm sure.

Though, a mistake I often see people commit, when attempting to write off their own codices, is overdoing or underdoing certain units. While we do want to put an efford into making them fun and interesting, we don't want to overcommit.

I'm a little short on time right now, so I cannot contribute until later. But I think you should edit your 1st post with all that you (and others) come up with. Add in changes to stats and abilities in other text colours, and add to the end of the units entry what have been changed. That'd make it much more manageable, I think

Daemonhammer wrote:You really want to bring SC into warhammer?
It is common knowledge that STARCRAFT RIPPED OFF 40k!

I honestly don't care. In fact Starcraft and Warhammer are two of my favorite universes, it is my hope that in the future we see more "rip offs" as these are two of the most awesome settings ever.

I would say give stalkers the Move in assault rule like tau/ jet bikes. I think power weapons on Zealots are fine , yes they take several goes to kill larger things but i think this is represented in the strength of the weapons.(and if those energy blades aren't power weapons i don't know what is!)

Not sure on colossus, thinking an expensive unit.

Do you plan on doing Zeratul?

Front page updated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

khaosspacemarines wrote:

Daemonhammer wrote:You really want to bring SC into warhammer?
It is common knowledge that STARCRAFT RIPPED OFF 40k!

I honestly don't care. In fact Starcraft and Warhammer are two of my favorite universes, it is my hope that in the future we see more "rip offs" as these are two of the most awesome settings ever.

I would say give stalkers the Move in assault rule like tau/ jet bikes. I think power weapons on Zealots are fine , yes they take several goes to kill larger things but i think this is represented in the strength of the weapons.(and if those energy blades aren't power weapons i don't know what is!)

Not sure on colossus, thinking an expensive unit.

Do you plan on doing Zeratul?

Oh yes, you have to have Zeratul, he's iconic, the Yoda of Starcraft.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daemonhammer wrote:You really want to bring SC into warhammer?
It is common knowledge that STARCRAFT RIPPED OFF 40k!

This shows the double standard! Make a 40k map for SC and you get rave review. Make codexes for 40k and you get boo'd.

Walkers need an Attack, and Initiative value, as I recall.

It reads a little better now, worth a playtest after you add some of the other stats in.

Zealots aren't the only proper infantry units in a Protoss army, you do have High and Dark Templars after all.

Kain wrote:Zealots aren't the only proper infantry units in a Protoss army, you do have High and Dark Templars after all.

In a 40k army, those would be elites.

Sentry
I'd change it to a 1-model unit, putting it in the Elites section, adding the IC rule to it and toning down the Guardian Shield ability. I'd also improove it's Ld, as we ARE dealing with a psyker unit. relying on a Ld 8 psychic test is too unrealiable. The IC, rather than a unit upgrade for, say, Zealots units, is to make it more fragile. This means that it can be targeted out in CC. Elite choice is simply stressing on the utility of the unit, as it is a obvious choice to have your whole army getting a better save.

Guardian Shield
- All models within 12" gain +1 to their invulnerable save against shooting .
(Reasoning: ATM, we're looking at a unit granting ALL units within 12" a Terminator TH/SS save. Furthermore, the unit granting this ability has T3 and is a stand alone unit, meaning it'll most likely go down in the first turn.)

Force Field
- If the Psychic test is successful, you may place the small blast marker within 24" of the sentry. Treat the blast marker as difficult terrain. Any unit wishing to move over the Blast marker must make a difficult terrain test, discarding the highest roll.
(Reasoning: The Large Blast marker is too large, considering it's size in game. I was considering changing it to a Small Blast that was treated as impassable terrain. But giving the fact, that you could completely block off whole paths with that, would be over the top. I also don't think that we want to shatter it, as you already are taking a psychic test to throw it down. (Hood, anyone?))

Psy Shields
Furthermore, I'd represent the Protoss shields as low invulnerable saves. (We don't want the Protoss fielding Terminator Troops or similar.) It's supposed to take a blow or two for the model. Not allowing him for re-rolling whatever damage he receives.

Zealot
I feel this unit needs a better Ld and remove the fearless rule, as I don't think it's suited for a Troops choice. The Zealot are, however, a young Templar. So it's only fair that we grant them a high Ld, reflecting the nature of their mental control. I'd also consider Stubborn, as they are very disciplined warriors.
- The FnP rule is too much, if you ask me. What you're basically having now, is a 3+ save with re-rolls, that has 4 attacks on the charge and, oh, yeah... Rending!. That's... Well... Only for Grey Knights, which doesn't know anything about balance! I'd tone it down to 1 attack as it's base attacks and give it a +6 invulnerable save. (Zealots are brutal, indeed. But they're not Genestealers!)
- Boost their Initiative to 4, as the I3 is pointless. I3 + FC = I4 on the charge. Better have them represent that heavy one-time blow, that we see ingame by striking first (against MEQ, that is), as they launch their assaults, together with +1 strength.
- If we apply all these nerfs, it's only fair that we nerfs it's cost as well. I'd say 20 pts per model and Legs at 4 pts per model.

All this gives us a 24 pts unit, that has WS 5 (3+ against MEQ), S5 on the charge (again, 3+), strikes first against MEQ first turn with 3 attacks that rends. (Compared to a Genestealer with FC at 17 pts per model, that - on the charge - has 3 attacks at WS6, S5, I6 and 5+ save). The extra points, compared to the Genestealer, is fine, considering the higher save + invulnerable save.

Problem: Genestealer with FC is overcosted and can outflank or infiltrate, has move through cover, SHOULD have assault grenades; using it as a basis of comparison is faulty.

Comparison unit you should be using: Thunderwolf Cav. Potential 24" assault range, 5PF or 6WC attacks on the charge (Rerolling to-hit AND to-wound) or 6+2S Attacks (S7)... 2W, S5, can have 3+/3++ in the unit, and rending base attacks AND grenades, counterattack, ATSKNF, Acute Senses. 50--80 points per model.


Zealot: Potential 18" assault range (-5 points for range), 3 rending attacks on charge (no rerolls)(-5 points for attacKs), 1W (-10 points for W), S5 (on charge)(-5 points for S), 3+ can have 5++ with guardian shield(-5 points for defensive options), rending base attacks - no grenades, or other goodies. (-5 points for defensive options)

At 15 points per model, I would buy rending, fleet, nerfedmarines with no grenades.

An idea to get stats right is compare a zealot to a marine on a stat per stat basis. Assuming a Terran and a space marine have similar stats . So something like this

WS- Zealots seem to bet better at CC than marines but marines dont have a CC unit so its hard to compare. A 4/5 would be about right here. Maybe WS 4/5 on zealots and WS 5 /6 for dark templar
BS-zealots dont have guns so a 0 or whatever everything else is
S-zealots do more damage then marines so S5
T-Zealots have alot of health but giving them 2 wounds would not fit 40k basic infantry so T5 instead of 2 wounds
W-1 just like everything else
I- hard to tell from the game same as marine or better
A-zealots have two CC attack so just carry that over 2 base plus 2 CCweapons for 3 attacks base.