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Hi all, wasn't sure if there was an ongoing thread regarding counterfeit but I think I've been had. Its hard to say but reading about fine-cast shenanigans I saw something about Chinese sellers. Did a quick search on my seller caomao1122
and found this thread. Initiate paranoia.
I just bought Canis Wolfborn and Astorath the grim from him. I got the models but now am starting to wonder if they are fake. They feel as lead should, weight and texturewise, and the detail appears GW lead level, but I dont have any other version of same models to compare to. The only thing that looks suspicious to me is that on Canis' tabs there is no "Games Workshop" print.
Here they are. If anyone has the models or knows what to look for then I'd appreciate your input...
It's a recast. Not a bad one but still not genuine. You can tell by the missing tabs for venting and some slight loss of detail.
Although that being said gw has been know to recast its own sculpt if a mold breaks or what not. So I would not worry about it unless you paid a lot for it.
Clthomps wrote:It's a recast. Not a bad one but still not genuine. You can tell by the missing tabs for venting and some slight loss of detail.
Although that being said gw has been know to recast its own sculpt if a mold breaks or what not. So I would not worry about it unless you paid a lot for it.
Er, what missing tabs? What loss of detail? As I'm seeing the former and not seeing the latter.
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
Not every GW metal tab has the GW name on it, most commonly smaller parts like shoulders and weapons.
Honestly, if the cast is good I wouldn't worry about it. It's not like there are recast police out there inspecting every model you play with.
"Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! ... It’s become the promotions department of a toy company." -- Rick Priestly
Clthomps wrote:It's a recast. Not a bad one but still not genuine. You can tell by the missing tabs for venting and some slight loss of detail.
Although that being said gw has been know to recast its own sculpt if a mold breaks or what not. So I would not worry about it unless you paid a lot for it.
Er, what missing tabs? What loss of detail? As I'm seeing the former and not seeing the latter.
Astoraths face seems to be smudged a bit, as does his scrollwork. Could be the picture quality, hard to tell.
Saddened on behalf of all the Ultramarines, Salamanders and White Scars players who got their Codex rolled into Codex: Black Templars.
As far as I have read in the various threads, the seller is indeed a recast seller. However, I do remember some people saying that the quality is not so bad comparing to GW metal.
You can ask him for a refund buy shipping back the stuff would cost you more. Might as well just use your painting skill to compensate for the perceived lack of quality.
I think if you take your model and compare to the finecast version of this model, it will make you feel better.
Basic rule...if you bought it "new" from China or Russia its likely a recast.
That being said, the prices are usually good and as long as the quality is acceptable just go with it. If buying recast minis bothers you, refer to the first sentence of this post.
Whats my game?
Warmachine (Cygnar)
10/15mm mecha
Song of Blades & Heroes
Blackwater Gulch
X wing
Open to other games too
Quite possibly recast. But really, who cares? Unless you have personal legal or moral problems with it, it will have zero effect on anything.
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When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
ph34r wrote:Quite possibly recast. But really, who cares? Unless you have personal legal or moral problems with it, it will have zero effect on anything.
100% recast. Detail is just as good as GW but the metal is a little softer.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ellis_esquire wrote:Hi all, wasn't sure if there was an ongoing thread regarding counterfeit but I think I've been had. Its hard to say but reading about fine-cast shenanigans I saw something about Chinese sellers. Did a quick search on my seller caomao1122
and found this thread. Initiate paranoia.
I just bought Canis Wolfborn and Astorath the grim from him. I got the models but now am starting to wonder if they are fake. They feel as lead should, weight and texturewise, and the detail appears GW lead level, but I dont have any other version of same models to compare to. The only thing that looks suspicious to me is that on Canis' tabs there is no "Games Workshop" print.
Here they are. If anyone has the models or knows what to look for then I'd appreciate your input...
You couldn't tell they were recast when you bought them? Really? Obvious recasts considering he is offering dozens of each for sale over and over again. The quality is very nice though. But once you paint them you or anyone else will really know the difference. If you are upset that you bought counterfeit models contact him and see if he will take them back for a refund.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/17 04:16:56
3500 pts Black Legion
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333 pts Daemonhunters
From a moral standpoint, does the counterfeiter deserve his model back if you want a refund? Why should he regain stolen goods?
Not that I really care either way, just thought that giving back a recast after getting a refund sounded ridiculous.
"Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! ... It’s become the promotions department of a toy company." -- Rick Priestly
Gorbad Ironclaw, a $50 model, for $26 and he has more than 10? Sanguinor, a $20 for $13, and he has again, more then 10? Seems legit.
So far as GWS shutting them down, goof luck man. Unless they screw up in some clearly visible way - I once saw a image of Necron Scarabs from Russia that had resin gates on the tail, but real ones are attached via the legs - then there is no way for GWS to shut them down. Suspicion alone is probably not enough.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/17 08:19:45
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Aerethan wrote:From a moral standpoint, does the counterfeiter deserve his model back if you want a refund? Why should he regain stolen goods?
Not that I really care either way, just thought that giving back a recast after getting a refund sounded ridiculous.
It isn't really something that keeps me up at night. From a practical point of view most people won't willingly refund you if you don't send them the money back. Unless paypals policy has changed they won't give you your money back just because you claim something is counterfeit. So basically if he wants his money back he will probably need to send back the items.
3500 pts Black Legion
3500 pts Iron Warriors
2500 pts World Eaters
1950 pts Emperor's Children
333 pts Daemonhunters
Aerethan wrote:From a moral standpoint, does the counterfeiter deserve his model back if you want a refund? Why should he regain stolen goods?
Not that I really care either way, just thought that giving back a recast after getting a refund sounded ridiculous.
Oh god, this makes me laugh on two levels:
1) "He stole these models!" (which he didn't, he copied them. After all this time, and all these arguments, and all the definitions, both dictionary and legal that have been pointed at, you'd think people would finally get the point that copyright infringement, counterfeiting and stealing aren't the same thing - all bad, all crimes, but not the same thing)
2) If 1) did hold true, you're advocating possession of "stolen" goods. BRILLIANT IDEA
If you're happy with the model, and happy with the price then keep the model. If these aren't true, attempt to arrange a refund. It won't work, but you can attempt it
Aerethan wrote:From a moral standpoint, does the counterfeiter deserve his model back if you want a refund? Why should he regain stolen goods?
Not that I really care either way, just thought that giving back a recast after getting a refund sounded ridiculous.
Oh god, this makes me laugh on two levels:
1) "He stole these models!" (which he didn't, he copied them. After all this time, and all these arguments, and all the definitions, both dictionary and legal that have been pointed at, you'd think people would finally get the point that copyright infringement, counterfeiting and stealing aren't the same thing - all bad, all crimes, but not the same thing)
Actually counterfeited goods can be labeled as "stolen goods". Certain circumstances require it to hold any water, but considering that the seller in question is in China it is feasible that he may have been running off copies using the actual molds that GW had there for a short time before they pulled model casting out and just left scenery casting there.
2) If 1) did hold true, you're advocating possession of "stolen" goods. BRILLIANT IDEA
"Possession of stolen goods" requires one to have foreknowledge of it, and does not apply to counterfeited goods. If one buys "in good faith", then you're okay.
If you're happy with the model, and happy with the price then keep the model. If these aren't true, attempt to arrange a refund. It won't work, but you can attempt it
Except it will actually work if he, rather than arranges a "refund" from the seller contacts GW.
GW actually has a whole spiel in their Legal section about it.
Spoiler:
Games Workshop wrote:
4. Counterfeiting/Peer-to-Peer File Sharing
We are encountering people who counterfeit our miniatures and products more and more frequently. Counterfeiting is a crime in most countries worldwide. In addition to the other penalties, you can go to prison for counterfeiting. The same is true of peer-to-peer file sharing - if you have not paid for the material and you download it using peer-to-peer software, you are engaging in illegal activity. The same is true even if you already own a copy of the relevant Codex or Army Book. Please remember that Games Workshop does not produce its rule books or codices in electronic format - if you ever see any such material in electronic format, it is likely to be the product of criminal or infringing activity.
BE AWARE that we will happily spend money bringing counterfeiters and other infringers to justice, regardless of the cost. Such activities kill the hobby for everyone.
By way of background to this position, Games Workshop is the world's largest wargames and miniatures manufacturer. This has not come about overnight but rather as a result of over 20 years of hard work and the investment of considerable amounts of money into designing the best, most evocative, and detailed games and miniatures that we possibly can.
In a free market, anyone willing to invest the necessary time and effort is entitled to the same opportunities we had when we started out. We welcome such fair 'competition' - in fact, we don't even think of it as competition because it all helps to build the hobby.
However, sadly, there are an unscrupulous few who try to take a shortcut to success by copying the design of our games and models and trading on the goodwill we've built up over the years - these people are counterfeiters.
We therefore want to make it clear that Games Workshop will not tolerate counterfeiting of its products nor any other unauthorized use of its trade marks, trade dress, copyright material, or other intellectual property and always seeks the maximum civil and criminal penalties that the law allows.
What to do if you are the victim of counterfeiters
Sadly, the people that suffer most from counterfeiters are you guys - after all who wants to pay for a badly-cast fake?
What we suggest is that if you encounter a counterfeiter, get as much information as you can before you contact us: where you saw them, who was selling them, where they are being made, etc. If you can, buy a representative sample and GET A RECEIPT. If the products are indeed counterfeit, we will reimburse you for any postage costs and will try to replace any counterfeit with the genuine article (please be aware that this may not always be possible). E-mail or write to us with any information at:
Also, IIRC you can call GW and they'll give you full refund/the real deal (I remember the actually searching their store for metal models instead of finecast since I bought a metal one with miscast)
EDIT: lol just saw the above post with the legal thingy XD
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/17 18:49:04
I have half a mind to kill you, and the other half agrees
ooh, that could be fun - buy up a ton of cheap counterfeits, give GW the details, get genuine replacements & a refund = free minis.
The key phrase being "this may not always be possible" - and if it's mysteriously not possible (and I bet you wouldn't be given a reason why it isn't), then you've just lost a perfectly good model and got back less money than it costs to get a genuine replacement.
So, what's best for the gamer?
- Getting a perfectly tabletop-worthy counterfeit for a deep discount, or
- Going to the effort of buying a model, waiting for it to arrive, sending it off to GW with a receipt, and in return getting your money back and maybe, maybe, if the wind is blowing in your favour, getting a free model. Oh, and you get to deny other gamers the choice you freely made.
But.........weren't both this minis originally produced in white metal, than recast in Finecast? Can't they be from that run?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/17 19:15:12
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AegisGrimm wrote:But.........weren't both this minis originally produced in white metal, than recast in Finecast? Can't they be from that run?
I don't think that's why the OP is asking. It's more from the fact that he bought from a Chinese seller known to sell recasts and that Canis Wolfborn's vents did not have the "Games Workshop" copyright print that models do.
Bit naive to buy cheap figures from chinese ebayers, though it's often hard to be certain when you have a recast as many indicators are not fully reliable. If the authenticity concerns you then don't buy from again, but I'm sure that once made up and painted it will be indistinguishable from the real thing.
Howard A Treesong wrote:Bit naive to buy cheap figures from chinese ebayers, though it's often hard to be certain when you have a recast as many indicators are not fully reliable.
Indeed, in my experience there is one specific Chinese gentleman that sells counterfeits that can only be distinguished from the real thing by the fact they ship for free, in a timely manner, and the quality is perfect. No way that's real FW resin, amirite?
Maybe the OP can edit out the seller's name. No reason to throw him more business.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/17 20:29:23
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
while were on the subject can anyone actually recomend any Ebay sellers, as i am loath to trust the format and would appreciate some people who have used it
Also forge world being forged... lol am i the only one who gets the irony
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/17 22:58:18
Bdstd... Forgeworld dirt cheap if you don't mind the 3 weeks delivery time.
I'm not opposed to Russian or Chinese recasters. Perhaps their presence will cause FW and GW to rethink their pricing, as they could just price the recasters out of business if they wanted to.
I get my models for as little money as possible, especially when it comes to that money going to GW.
"Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! ... It’s become the promotions department of a toy company." -- Rick Priestly
Because these are counterfeit and because of the way PayPal works you can order from the recaster and when it arrives tell PayPal it's a fake and get your money back. Just open a dispute you will win because it's true and they should not be selling knockoffs even if they are better quality than fine cast.
Free models and a wrist slap for the recaster
Everybody wins except the guy breaking the law !
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/17 23:25:01
Aerethan wrote:Bdstd... Forgeworld dirt cheap if you don't mind the 3 weeks delivery time.
I'm not opposed to Russian or Chinese recasters. Perhaps their presence will cause FW and GW to rethink their pricing, as they could just price the recasters out of business if they wanted to.
This is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read here on Dakka. I'm kind of disappointed that it came from you, Aerethan.
Sure, let's price the recasters out of business! It's not like it costs them anything to produce their counterfeits in overhead, labor, etc.
I get my models for as little money as possible, especially when it comes to that money going to GW.
Aerethan wrote:Bdstd... Forgeworld dirt cheap if you don't mind the 3 weeks delivery time.
I'm not opposed to Russian or Chinese recasters. Perhaps their presence will cause FW and GW to rethink their pricing, as they could just price the recasters out of business if they wanted to.
I get my models for as little money as possible, especially when it comes to that money going to GW.
Piracy and counterfeiting has not reduced the price of music, dvd's/ blue-ray or games. It won't work on miniatures.
3500 pts Black Legion
2500 pts World Eaters
1950 pts Emperor's Children
333 pts Daemonhunters
