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So, trying to keep the drama to a minimum. Anyone with any time in the hobby has had the rules go south on him, seen his favorite army/build/unit turned to to crap. I wasn't the first, won't be the last.

But...

And this is an important 'but' here. Sometimes you have to pause for a bit and wonder if the hobby is treating you properly.

Rewind a year and change. I had finished purchasing my CSM army (hadn't played a game yet) and had just ordered my first batch of Dark eldar from Maelstrom. My local meta was a SM-fest and I wanted a seocnf force to keep me from getting bored with my own MeQs, and the De models were sleek, gorgeous, the army fast and deadly in a way my traitors...weren't.

Hit me until I love it

Then the embargo hit. Games Worshop apparently got fed up with losing sales to stores with actual good shipping policies and insane practices like buyback or (gasp!) the occasional sale. So we on the southern hemisphere got shafted. Bear in mind that one of the main reasons wargaming even achieved any presence here in Brazil was due to the appearance of good online stores with free shipping.

Still, I was invested. I started playing my CSM, having great fun along the way, and slowly ordering my DE forces when I had some cash left. The price increases along the way didn't help.

Then, Finecast. When it was time to buy my Incubi and HQs, metal was no longer an option. I ordered the models. The Incubi came withweird little resin feelers on their legs instead os spikes, and the haemonculi misisng the backpack/spine piece. Being a naice kind, I only took a pic of the haemi defect and mailed it to them, thinking I could fix the incubi myself and not trouble them. They mailed me another hameonculi. Or they say thay did. Two months later, it hasn't arrived.

It could have been worse. You could have picked nids...

In a way, it was a good thing that I 'downsized' my DE army with the embargo and the price increase. The countdown to 6th Edition began, and I was optimistic. GW is a big studio. They have top talent and the feedback of hundreds of thousands. They've had years to work on this.

Except...not. Love or hate the allies system, it basically is a game development shrig. "We can't balance the armies with out codex release schedule. So have this chart and fix it up yourselves while buying more of our stuff. Except you, bugs". That's the message I got. That they didn't even bother to give armies that choose to stay 'pure' a reward for doing so clinches it.

The implementation of overwatch, assault for non-TeQ and MeQ, acces to skyfire weaponry and even the Warlord trait table makes me wonder if they even understand the dynamic of their own games. Some of the FAQ's show less effort than I put into my Street Fighter IV game when I'm letting my GF beat me (yeah, I'm a chauvinist pig.).

How to turn RNG into bad design

Let's take the Warlord table as a minor example. It's not the core issue but it is revealing.

You have offensive, defensive and terrain abilities sharing the same table. Your charge-forward assault HQ can end up with a defensive power that only applies if he camps back in his home turf. Your base-sitting sniper HQ can get furious charge if he ever strolls to the enmy deploy zone, which he won't. You may gain a bonus in ruins playing a forest or desert table with nary a ruin in sight. You can gain Acute senses when not having a single outflanker on the table.

In -good- games, the tables would have been better, or allow some player input. In the RPG Deathwatch, for instance, you roll your power armor's special abilities on a similar table. Except they actually know a bit about game design and let you always pick the options above or below the one you rolled if you wan, because they know it's dumb to expect a Devastator to get an armor that gives CC bonuses and say it's fine.

"Bah, you should just adapt!". That lazy excuse making. you can toss a swimming person a cinderblock; no amount of improvisation or tactics will turn it into a flotation device. And it's especially harmful when the other guy just might roll well and get a jet ski. "You got a spork, you got a chainsaw...balance checks out. Now fight, you two!"

Now what?

So now I'm sitting here pondering what to do. I could just shelve my incubi, Archon, Wyches and all and get more venoms and blastern, maybe a plane or two. Put night shields on everything since flickerfields are almost pointless now and play shooty keep away game after game while praying for a night fighting turn.

But it's not the kind of game I wanted to play with my DE, not by a long shot. I've seen pure Venomspam in action at a tournament and it seemed utterly boring (the fact that it was being fielded by TFG didn't help).

Do I eBay it and channel the funds to my Infinity army and an IG addition to my CSM? Do I just play it for fun since it's nearly done, knowing full well how sub-optimal it is now and hoping the dice gods will reward me for my principles?

I've gone from anger to bargaining to acceptance to cynicism, and now I just feel disappointed. It may be a bit silly to go on so much about a game, but we all know this is an investement of time and money. There is such a thing as 'psychic capital'; when your favorite team loses an important game, it doesn't pick your pocket or break your leg, but you still -have- been affected, and not lightly. When it wins, it also puts no money in your pocket, health in your body or anything of the kind, but you have gained something real.

I can't think of a good way to finish this little rant, so I'll just stop it here. Please feel free to share your opinions, good and bad.

Find likeminded people and play the edition that brings you all the most joy. We still play a slightly tweaked form of 2nd.

Yeah, GW does seem pretty competent at disappointing/aggravating me more than anything. I was drawn into wh40k 15 years ago with all the fantastc models and fluff. The models are still fantastic, the fluff . . . eh, the game system, meh. But the way GW treats its customers overall just grates on me badly enough that buying their stuff feels shameful

You should leave the hobby altogether seems like it sucks for you. As far as shipping stuff to brazil goes good luck, i have to deal with their a-hole customs agents constantly nothing like an 60% tax to make you love them.

tgf wrote:You should leave the hobby altogether seems like it sucks for you.

Oh, do shut up and go sit in the corner.

Now, Sephyr. If you enjoy the models, and you enjoy the fluff, but not the rules, I'd say your best bet is to change the rules.

Check out Tomorrow's War, a set of sci-fi rules made by Osprey Publishing. While it has its own 'in-universe' fluff, the ruleset is made to be adaptable to anything. It allows you to create your own troops and vehicles. I've seen quite a few threads in various forums where people were looking to adapt 40k to TW.

infinite_array wrote:

tgf wrote:You should leave the hobby altogether seems like it sucks for you.

Oh, do shut up and go sit in the corner.

Now, Sephyr. If you enjoy the models, and you enjoy the fluff, but not the rules, I'd say your best bet is to change the rules.

Check out Tomorrow's War, a set of sci-fi rules made by Osprey Publishing. While it has its own 'in-universe' fluff, the ruleset is made to be adaptable to anything. It allows you to create your own troops and vehicles. I've seen quite a few threads in various forums where people were looking to adapt 40k to TW.

That actually seems interesting. I'll give it a good read and see if I can get the group interested. Thanks for the tip!

Unfortunately I agree with you sephyr, and I live in the UK... the hobby is expensive, the fluff that I love keeps getting sh!t on by games developers like Phil Kelly, Matt Ward and the likes and the rules system is good so long as you NEVER EVER EVER EVER compare it to some of the ways it used to be. All I have to say to GW about it is.... I QUIT. I've had enough. The yearly price hikes are a joke, the website runs an offer of spend over £10 get your shipping free.... its almost IMPOSSIBLE to NOT spend £10 so really thats just sh!t to make you feel good about it and I'm sick of the flavour of the month way of armies. If your not the latest codex or army your already at a disadvantage before the game has even started. And if your a die hard for one army (like me) then you go to the top of the pile for a while and work your way down again. Can't we just have balanced armies all round? Can't we just be on equal footing all the time? Can't we have codex releases nearer together than an 6 month gap which leads to a 5 year cycle till your next edition?

I hope GW goes under...

GW is a good concept, unfortunately it has very bad management. There are many companies who make bad business decisions, but sometimes you can even hear the cracking of the cloth as GW wrings the worth out of its playerbase.

In fact I'm going to go so far as to say within 10 years GW will be no more. Maybe even 5...

EDIT: Damn you share holders... damn you and your profit demands... damnit all...

I understand where you're coming from.

I have a friend who paints incredibly. He paints day in and day out and basically mastered the art.

He like to collect a strongly themed army that also will perform well on the tabletop.

He just finished his Ultramarine dreadnaught army and his Grey Knights with tons of paladins and all my old metal PAGKs.

He just finished them! And now both those armies have taken a huge hit (in reguards to HIS lists).

Luckily he has a gigantic chaos force of traitor guard, thousand sons, chaos demons and the lost and the damned mutants.

He's excited that his chaos army is now awesome and viable and even combinable.

He's beside himself with greif that GW has ruined his awesome dreadnought idea and his Grey Knight list is now garbage.

Thousands of dollars gone to waste... until codecies are re-written.

I personally don't care about the changes. I have an ork army that's almost entirely still on sprue. I can still buy/trade/sell my stuff and tailor my lists.

I really do feel bad for the people that have seen their ideas/dreams/plans come crashing down. However, like others have said, there's nothing stopping you from playing how you want with friends.

Yeah it felt good to get that rant out of my system, problem is my local gaming store IS a GW... I have no choice but to play 6th ed...

EDIT: and my local gaming group boycotted 40k... they refuse to play it now... and the only one who does is TFG... and I don't like him regardless of him being TFG so that'll never happen...

One aside that should be pointed out is that these rules are changing every 4 years. In 4 years time someones army is going to be in your situation.

Every Tau and Eldar player got a fairly healthy lease on life with these new rules while every GK player saw every unit they own get nerfed slightly, its the nature of new rules. I feel that in all probability you should look to find a way to be happy with your purchases and your time. If this takes the form of Ebay or finding like minded people to play your armies your way or whatnot. What you should not do is be naive in thinking this wasnt coming.

I don't think there was any naivety in it, more that its quite a large fundamental change in the assault phase that wasn't expected. Random assault distances and overwatch fire is quite a huge change for the assault phase. I'm just fed up with GW overall really, I feel like they've sold themselves to the devil... its very disappointing and frustrating for me personally considering I've been into it from childhood. I've grown up with it. And now its not the 'friend I know and love' any more.

DeffDred wrote:I understand where you're coming from.

I have a friend who paints incredibly. He paints day in and day out and basically mastered the art.

He like to collect a strongly themed army that also will perform well on the tabletop.

He just finished his Ultramarine dreadnaught army and his Grey Knights with tons of paladins and all my old metal PAGKs.

He just finished them! And now both those armies have taken a huge hit (in reguards to HIS lists).

Luckily he has a gigantic chaos force of traitor guard, thousand sons, chaos demons and the lost and the damned mutants.

He's excited that his chaos army is now awesome and viable and even combinable.

He's beside himself with greif that GW has ruined his awesome dreadnought idea and his Grey Knight list is now garbage.

Thousands of dollars gone to waste... until codecies are re-written.

I personally don't care about the changes. I have an ork army that's almost entirely still on sprue. I can still buy/trade/sell my stuff and tailor my lists.

I really do feel bad for the people that have seen their ideas/dreams/plans come crashing down. However, like others have said, there's nothing stopping you from playing how you want with friends.

Although Paladins aren't the best example, being largely based around the exploitation of a single rule...
... It does baffle me how GW manage to invalidate armies and play-styles with every edition/Codex or overlook player feedback (e.g. for Pancake Edition). I would've hoped that a company like GW could build upon existing rules to allow all and existing armies to remain usable and interesting, rather than rework the rules to often invalidate them.

Annoyingly, 6th Edition does seem to be more about - or more obviously about - generating sales.

I know where you are coming from man. If the new Chaos dex doesn't impress me enough to make me want to keep playing then my army will get sent to Ebay.

Its a shame really because I want to keep playing like I have for the last 12 years but to be honest this game is a money pit that I really can't afford. I haven't bought a new model in years just because I didn't have the extra cash to spend on the models.

One thing that does irk me is that GW's prices go up even when the economy of a lot of countries is in the dirt across the world.

Stormravens cost them anywhere near $82.50 to make....sure and I'm next in line for the throne of England too...LOL

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:In fact I'm going to go so far as to say within 10 years GW will be no more. Maybe even 5...

EDIT: Damn you share holders... damn you and your profit demands... damnit all...

This is a stupid prediction.
There are plenty of people who don't really give a stuff about the rules and naively play the game no matter what, for example: little kiddies. They will play no matter what and always will. Then there are other people who just love the hobby too much to stop buying from GW, where some (few) stores actually do have helpful staff! Edinburgh is one such store.
To say they will go down in 10 years is a wild statement fuelled by your dislike. It's not going to happen at current rates. If there was some oil shortage that affected the price of plastic...then they might have a problem on their hands. We have just had a big recession. In the UK, while most highstreet stores' sales were dropping GW had decent mark ups...one of the few companies to do so showing that even in low spending climates they carry on strongly.
Please think before you post nonsense.

Imperial Monkey wrote:

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:In fact I'm going to go so far as to say within 10 years GW will be no more. Maybe even 5...

EDIT: Damn you share holders... damn you and your profit demands... damnit all...

This is a stupid prediction.
There are plenty of people who don't really give a stuff about the rules and naively play the game no matter what, for example: little kiddies. They will play no matter what and always will. Then there are other people who just love the hobby too much to stop buying from GW, where some (few) stores actually do have helpful staff! Edinburgh is one such store.
To say they will go down in 10 years is a wild statement fuelled by your dislike. It's not going to happen at current rates. If there was some oil shortage that affected the price of plastic...then they might have a problem on their hands. We have just had a big recession. In the UK, while most highstreet stores' sales were dropping GW had decent mark ups...one of the few companies to do so showing that even in low spending climates they carry on strongly.
Please think before you post nonsense.

Hell yeah! Edinburgh is a great store! So was Livingston... And so is glasgow. Tbh, people complaining about stores has never made sense to me, they have always been good for me.

And it's a new rules system. Adapt, change. Try win with your list that isn't as good anymore.

Oh, and people complaining about grey knights... seriously? You have the audacity to complain about arguably THEE most broken army in 5th edition? It got nerfed slightly. Draigowing isn't a near insta-win anymore. Live with it. I play Eldar, and I shall be enjoying my AP3 witchblades tyvm 'bout time I got a buff


Von Chogg

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:In fact I'm going to go so far as to say within 10 years GW will be no more. Maybe even 5...

EDIT: Damn you share holders... damn you and your profit demands... damnit all...

Shareholders want sustained, long term profit. They don't want companies to make massive profits for a few years, then go under.

Joey wrote:

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:In fact I'm going to go so far as to say within 10 years GW will be no more. Maybe even 5...

EDIT: Damn you share holders... damn you and your profit demands... damnit all...

Shareholders want sustained, long term profit. They don't want companies to make massive profits for a few years, then go under.

That's a dangerous generalization. I work in economic journalism (which is why I do NOT engage in 'GW is gidding its grave' futurology), and trust me, the average shareholder -will- tolerate a lot of predatory, unsound management in exchange for short term profit. It's actually more common for responsible CEOs to get booted out for wanting to grow the cake slowly and surely than for greedy jerks who bleed the company white to get their comeuppance.

But I digress. At this point, I think there is no excuse for the time between updates (or at least solid FAQs that really make an army stay viable) other than army obsolescence being a feature and not a bug for them. If they improve a crappy old army before the codex, it means someone with the old models will only buy 1-3 boxes and keep a working army. But if he quits and jumps into, say, the BA razorspam bandwagon,m the cash flow is a lot better...especially when a new edition arrives and suddenly even that no longer works that good.

Admitedly, it's a complicated hobby. We wargamers are not the easiest folks to deal with. But there are companies out there that seem to be doing a way better job with a far smaller staff, budget and reputation than GW: good models, rules that get updated anf fixed frequently (there's this thing called the intrawebs, you know...), a greater focus on balance and so on.

Part of my disappointment is that I really thought GW was moving in that direction. I mean, they surely looked into the Dawn of War series, the Space Marine series and even the Deathwatch RPG. They should have known the chance they had to both capture new players and clear a big hurdle when it came to keeping things on a sound, even footing.

Maybe they can stay afloat just by wowing kiddies with new space marine armies owning face across the board with their Tau and Guard friends. But I believe that if they want to compete with video games, flashy cell-phone apps and other fun things (like, say...girls), they ought to look ino nurturing the hobby more carefully.

Sephyr wrote:
That's a dangerous generalization. I work in economic journalism (which is why I do NOT engage in 'GW is gidding its grave' futurology), and trust me, the average shareholder -will- tolerate a lot of predatory, unsound management in exchange for short term profit. It's actually more common for responsible CEOs to get booted out for wanting to grow the cake slowly and surely than for greedy jerks who bleed the company white to get their comeuppance.

Given the average shareholder is a pension fund or local council, I find that very difficult to beleive.

Joey wrote:

Sephyr wrote:
That's a dangerous generalization. I work in economic journalism (which is why I do NOT engage in 'GW is gidding its grave' futurology), and trust me, the average shareholder -will- tolerate a lot of predatory, unsound management in exchange for short term profit. It's actually more common for responsible CEOs to get booted out for wanting to grow the cake slowly and surely than for greedy jerks who bleed the company white to get their comeuppance.

Given the average shareholder is a pension fund or local council, I find that very difficult to beleive.

This is derailing the thread, but do you want me to toss a list of municipal and pension funds currently sueing JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley and other financial giants for the colossal losses they suffered in the latest bust? They sure didn't ask questions when the cash was rolling in, mind.

Sephyr wrote:

Joey wrote:

Sephyr wrote:
That's a dangerous generalization. I work in economic journalism (which is why I do NOT engage in 'GW is gidding its grave' futurology), and trust me, the average shareholder -will- tolerate a lot of predatory, unsound management in exchange for short term profit. It's actually more common for responsible CEOs to get booted out for wanting to grow the cake slowly and surely than for greedy jerks who bleed the company white to get their comeuppance.

Given the average shareholder is a pension fund or local council, I find that very difficult to beleive.

This is derailing the thread, but do you want me to toss a list of municipal and pension funds currently sueing JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley and other financial giants for the colossal losses they suffered in the latest bust? They sure didn't ask questions when the cash was rolling in, mind.

Nope. They definitely weren't asking any questions. The gross underestimations of human greed are a huge part of what caused the latest global economic meltdowns.

I imagine when 40k started it was made with passion by people whp wanted it to succeed not for the money but to make others happy and somewhere along the line they lost the passion and sold out the entire point for GW now is to make money thats why the newest codex will alaways be the best army so it sells the allies system is there to sell mpre models. In answer to your original question you should adapt and perservere and hope the FAQs and new dex's sort your problems or give it up sell your minis and never think of 40k again if you dont enjoy playing the game dont keep giving your money to GW

Yeah I know where you're coming from. I've barely played a game of 40k since 3rd edition. Started playing Space Wolves back in 2nd edition as a kid, and when 3rd edition came out it was all down hill from there. I played quite a bit in 3rd edition because the new plastics made the hobby cheaper (at least for me personally), but always thought the game itself was inferior to 2nd edition. Funnily enough, with all the price hikes a box of plastic models now costs more than a box of metal models back in the day anyway!

Saying "get used to it and adapt" is fine, but there reaches a point where you're just like "what the hell GW" when the rules new are actually less fun AND they take your preciously painted models and make them useless. I had a decent sized army in 5th edition fantasy, then when it changed to 6th edition a lot of it was rendered terrible because they were equipped with things that were no longer good or too expensive or whatever... so I painstakingly converted the army to suit the new rules. Then they release the bloody army books and it all changes again, grr. 40k is so much worse though.

I've pretty much given up gaming. I do still like the models and so still paint things, and I TRY to paint a proper army but never get it done. Once in a blue moon I'll play a game of 40k and remind myself how good things were back in the day and don't play another game for another few years, lol. I always know if I start an army now, regardless of what army it is and how much planning I put in to construct it carefully, by the time I finish painting it the rules would have changed to make them awful.

Things I'll never forgive GW for doing...
1. Bringing in the stupid AP armour save system in 40k. Terrible idea and I don't know why they persist with it.
2. Universal movement distances in 40k and removing the old 4" walk and 8" run
3. Randomising movement distances. The whole game is about movement, don't friggin randomise it.
4. Constantly changing rules in such a way that requires remodelling your painstakingly constructed and painted miniatures.
5. "Simplifying" rules to make them less logical/realistic/fun for no good reason.

I'll probably think of more later

Sephyr wrote:

Admitedly, it's a complicated hobby. We wargamers are not the easiest folks to deal with. But there are companies out there that seem to be doing a way better job with a far smaller staff, budget and reputation than GW: good models, rules that get updated anf fixed frequently (there's this thing called the intrawebs, you know...), a greater focus on balance and so on.

Part of my disappointment is that I really thought GW was moving in that direction.

This is exactly how I felt as 5th edition was released. I believed things that needed changing would get addressed and the game would continue to improve. Instead it was changed for it's own sake, improving some things, making other things just as nonsensical and somethings outright ridiculous. A lateral move for it's own sake; an engine to generate sales in a cycle without regard for lasting quality. I get it; the company is trying to make money. I just don't think making money and pleasing customers has to be mutually exclusive to the degree GW works it.

It's like the 2nd trilogy of Star Wars movies. Wheeeeeee!! Yay, STAR WARS!! Er... huh? You have such high expectations and...oh wait, it actually sucks.

I'm not saying 6th Ed. is a bust, so don't rave about "ya haven't played X # of games so how do you know, blah blah blah?" I'm just saying for all 40K's hype and promise GW will stumble along and people will stumble along with it.

I think it's a bit early to compare 6th Edition to the Star Wars Prequels.

That's just mean.

I really don't get much of these complaints. True, Grey Knights got nerfed slightly. For any sane person, that is considered a GOOD thing. "Slight nerf" hardly equates "army becoming a waste", does it? Apparently, some people completely lack any perspective.

Now, I can see that if you have invested on Wych army, Overwatch does somewhat hose it. How much, remains to be seen. Ditto for Eldar assault units like Striking Scorpions etc. But other than that, it's way way too early - or completely unfounded - to complain about "armies becoming unviable".

Now, I can see that if you have invested on Wych army, Overwatch does somewhat hose it

No, I am sorry but please people, the math aint hard here.

You'll lose 2.44 wychs on the charge, with FNP it drops to 1.33. BS1 really doesn't help perfectly!

Ditto for Eldar assault units like Striking Scorpions etc.

With the 3+ save, they do far better.

I feel that this version of 40k is the most blatant at feeling like its a model sales business first and a game 2nd.

Allies, 2nd FOC at 2k, Flyers, Aegis defence line etc..

All points me to this conclusion.

Thi version could be called Moneyhammer, since it will cost tons to be competitive.

Backfire wrote:
Now, I can see that if you have invested on Wych army, Overwatch does somewhat hose it. How much, remains to be seen. Ditto for Eldar assault units like Striking Scorpions etc. But other than that, it's way way too early - or completely unfounded - to complain about "armies becoming unviable".

I'm sorry, but this is not enough anymore. There is a limit to how much someone can be jerked around.

First there were rumors about overwatch and AP values in CC, and people made noises. They heard "Oh, the book is not even out yet, you're fretting for no reason!"

Then the book was out and we got aprehensive, and it was "Wait now, the FAQs are coming to set it all straight. Stop the doom and gloom."

Now the FAQs are in and there are a ton of holes, conflicts and units made crap, and it's "Much remains to be seen. Play some 30 games before you for an opinion. It's too early."

In a few months it'll be "Sure, it sucks now. Toughen up and wait for the next codex, it's only a few years!"

We are rational being, you know. We can make reasonable predictions based on data. For instance: It's a mathematical certainty that Kharn the Betrayer is awful now. His dynamics are -completely- changed. It's actually even a joke to give assault grenades to a model now stuck at Ini 1.

Another prediction: Many units that relied upon assaulting coming in from reserves lost their hats. Their costs were factored including that ability. They gained -nothing- in return. It will be years before there is even an attempt at fixing it.