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ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Now, I can see that if you have invested on Wych army, Overwatch does somewhat hose it

No, I am sorry but please people, the math aint hard here.

You'll lose 2.44 wychs on the charge, with FNP it drops to 1.33. BS1 really doesn't help perfectly!

Depends who you're assaulting. If you're assaulting say, mob of 20 Ork Shoota boyz, it's worse...

I remain puzzled at the complaints how Ally rule is a cynical plot to sell more models.

First, allies rule is one of the oldest in the game. Designed during the time when "game was designed to make people happy, not to make money".

Second, most people's reaction has been that it is now easier for them to start build a new army, because they DON'T have to buy craploads of stuff to put together a legal army.

Depends who you're assaulting. If you're assaulting say, mob of 20 Ork Shoota boyz, it's worse...

4.444 models.

2.963 otherwise with FNP

Though you may just want to charge with two squads than, one squad soaks the overwatch and than the other helps out in the killing.

Sephyr wrote:

Backfire wrote:
Now, I can see that if you have invested on Wych army, Overwatch does somewhat hose it. How much, remains to be seen. Ditto for Eldar assault units like Striking Scorpions etc. But other than that, it's way way too early - or completely unfounded - to complain about "armies becoming unviable".

I'm sorry, but this is not enough anymore. There is a limit to how much someone can be jerked around.

First there were rumors about overwatch and AP values in CC, and people made noises. They heard "Oh, the book is not even out yet, you're fretting for no reason!"

Well, that's not what I heard. I heard "Hmm, that sounds like a good thing".

I dont see how adding Allies DOSENT make people BUY MORE stuff?

Of course it does. Thats what GW want, people to go WOW I can buff my crappy Tau with some TH/SS! WOOOOT.

Rush to store buy said models, all the while GW sits back cackling with laughter.

Milisim wrote:I dont see how adding Allies DOSENT make people BUY MORE stuff?

Of course it does. Thats what GW want, people to go WOW I can buff my crappy Tau with some TH/SS! WOOOOT.

Rush to store buy said models, all the while GW sits back cackling with laughter.

No, it means that if I want to say, paint some Deathwing, I don't have to buy 1500 points worth of stuff to get them on the field. I can buy just couple of squads and add them to my other Imperial armies. So I have to buy LESS to be able to play.

I repeat, Ally rules were in the game almost from the beginning, largely removed in newer editions. So I guess GW was cynical money making machine from the start.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Though you may just want to charge with two squads than, one squad soaks the overwatch and than the other helps out in the killing.

Hey, I did just that on my first 6th edition game!

Anyways. Good or bad, 40k is still a strategy game, not a Korean MMORPG. Money won't win games for you.

Out of interest, has anyone here tried to make their feelings about it known to GW? Or simply ranted on forums...

Imperial Monkey wrote:Out of interest, has anyone here tried to make their feelings about it known to GW? Or simply ranted on forums...

I entertained sending something like the OP to them, only in more polite terms, but:

1-) I wouldn't know how to. Just tossing a mail to some secretary or clerk in their office is likely going straight to the delete bin, after maybe generating some chuckles about the nerds and all their nerdy nerdraging nerdness.

2-) Not sure they care. GW is only slightly less impermeable to communication and feedback than, say, the North Korean CP. They'll take your money for the nice models, yes, but they'll cross the street to avoid having to trade words with their crusty consumer base.

Ok well fair enough a lot of you are probably thinking 'your just being a wet blanket and acting like a p!ssy little child' really fair enough I can see why you would think that. But if that really was the case I would say something like Matt Ward is TFG of GW....


Off-topic again the company cannot sustain its rate of inflation, 10 years ago a box of 6 marines was a fiver... thats £5. A box of 5 now is £15.50 or in otherwords a 300% price rise in 10 years so in the next 10 years IF the rate stays constant that'll be over £30 for 5 marines. God knows what Termies will be.... You gona pay that?

Allies = More Models.


My Tau force is 100% finished in my mind. Well it was for 5th.

With Allies Im now looking at adding better CC stuff since mine is useless. Everyone is now looking at other armies wondering how to add to their current lists.

That equals sales pure and simple.

Its all about money. This is moneyhammer.

Imperial Monkey wrote:Out of interest, has anyone here tried to make their feelings about it known to GW? Or simply ranted on forums...

Yes repeated emails over the years with suggestions for rule changes, FAQs to codex, problems in mechanics, grammar errors, poor wording for rules, rules easily abused, stupid box sets (like the Chaos Space Marine box with 8 marines in it and a special weapon and heavy bolter... that you couldn't use under the rules because they weren't at least 10 models... go figure...) the list goes on and on and on.

Imperial Monkey wrote:Out of interest, has anyone here tried to make their feelings about it known to GW? Or simply ranted on forums...

They used to have an official forum that the developers would occasionally glance over. They closed it down years ago for some strange reason. Too many gamer opinions perhaps?

Also with allies, are they now officially allowed in any game? Back in the day you could take allies, but it was always a "discuss with opponent" thing, I don't know of anyone who actually integrated allies into their armies.

SInce I'm very new, I've only played two games total. I have to say that its partly about making money. If they are not able to make money, they are unable to update rules and continue production of models. They wouldn't be able to produce new Codexes. They wouldn't be able to pay the people who do the original sculps for any new models. So money is important. However, from what I've been reading, there were many problems with 5th edition and some armies before 6th edition. They may be my noobish talking, but it sounds like they took some very OP armies and made them beatable.

I for one, look forward to all the fresh warmachine/hordes, malifaux, and heavy gear opponents I'll have.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Now, I can see that if you have invested on Wych army, Overwatch does somewhat hose it

No, I am sorry but please people, the math aint hard here.

You'll lose 2.44 wychs on the charge, with FNP it drops to 1.33. BS1 really doesn't help perfectly!

Ditto for Eldar assault units like Striking Scorpions etc.

With the 3+ save, they do far better.

That's one Wych and three attacks. Or 2 wyches and 6 attacks. Fewer attacks means fewer dead marines before they get to swing, which means more dead Wyches AFTER they swing (along with the FNP nerf). This means the narrow margin to win on the charge just got narrower. If you win this turn and they run, you get rapid fired and die. If you win NEXT turn, you've probably lost so many Wyches that charging again into a fresh unit is just throwing them away, so now you have to go after a chewed up unit: if one is around. But since we cant fleet into combat anymore... problem.

Or, I could throw two Wych units at one squad of marines, which means at best I threw 260pts of Wyches at 150pts of Marines just to win. Not assault marines, mind you. That's if I DIDN'T have raiders and Haemonculi purchased too in order to buff them. So now that 200pt (with a rhino or RB maybe) took on 500pts of Wyches. Sure, those Wyches won. Nice! And then they get rapid fired and die.

Keep it coming guys, this thread is pure comedy gold.

I can afford the hobby, I dont give a damn about the fluff when I play games. And as far as people who feel its too hard due to shipping, find another hobby or sukck it and astop moaning.

There are two extremes. One side is absolute and unshakeable fanboy/girlism. This is when the subject in question will gush over the amazingness of something simply because it is connected to their fandom.

There is the other side. This side is full of the people who automatically despise the new system of what they call their fandom, for no better reason than it's slightly different (even if it isn't) to the thing they say they love. D&D players who play 3E because they hate, hate, hate 4E even though they've never played it.

However, it is not a line. People can remain fans while disliking content. I, for one, am a very strong Metroid fan - and I hate Other M not only because it is terrible, but also because of its character-destroying portrayal of Samus Aran. Does this make me a non-fan, am I not allowed my opinion? No. I am. In this case, people are allowed legitimate complaints about GW - they do this crap all the time. Almost every single update brings joy to some and pain to others. As each army functions differently and everything is part of the same system, this is to be expected.

There's no "suck it up or leave". There's no "you are not a 40k fan because you dislike this trend or whatever else your complaint is about." There is also no "SHUT UP OMG 6E is the most amazing thing ever!!! Stop complaining because it's awesome!!".

I would like to say to the people who state the above, in any form; please do not reply to this topic if you have nothing to say other than bashing people for forwarding their legitimate complaints. Granted, some of them are silly, but that's besides the point.

Now that that's out of the way - I don't really care. My Tyranids might be nerfed, they might be buffed - either way, I'm going to play them regardless. For me, at least, the game isn't about winning, it's about fun. Fun is... it's kinda... sorta like a... should I spell it for ya?

Frozen Ocean wrote:There are two extremes. One side is absolute and unshakeable fanboy/girlism. This is when the subject in question will gush over the amazingness of something simply because it is connected to their fandom.

There is the other side. This side is full of the people who automatically despise the new system of what they call their fandom, for no better reason than it's slightly different (even if it isn't) to the thing they say they love. D&D players who play 3E because they hate, hate, hate 4E even though they've never played it.

However, it is not a line. People can remain fans while disliking content. I, for one, am a very strong Metroid fan - and I hate Other M not only because it is terrible, but also because of its character-destroying portrayal of Samus Aran. Does this make me a non-fan, am I not allowed my opinion? No. I am. In this case, people are allowed legitimate complaints about GW - they do this crap all the time. Almost every single update brings joy to some and pain to others. As each army functions differently and everything is part of the same system, this is to be expected.

There's no "suck it up or leave". There's no "you are not a 40k fan because you dislike this trend or whatever else your complaint is about." There is also no "SHUT UP OMG 6E is the most amazing thing ever!!! Stop complaining because it's awesome!!".

I would like to say to the people who state the above, in any form; please do not reply to this topic if you have nothing to say other than bashing people for forwarding their legitimate complaints. Granted, some of them are silly, but that's besides the point.

Now that that's out of the way - I don't really care. My Tyranids might be nerfed, they might be buffed - either way, I'm going to play them regardless. For me, at least, the game isn't about winning, it's about fun. Fun is... it's kinda... sorta like a... should I spell it for ya?

Are there really two extremes? Or is it a false dichotomy?

For me, it's always been fluff first, hobby second, gameplay third. I fell in love with the universe. While Necrons/GK fluff was god-awful, 6th Edition just feels so stagnant. It isn't bad, it isn't good, there's nothing there fluff wise.

Hobbying has gotten worse with price hikes and failcast, though I've rarely bought from GW directly since I began as even then the prices were ridiculous.

I'm less concerned about gameplay, but for someone who is hardly a veteran (got into this about a year ago) and concerned with thematics over substance or wargaming, I can probably tolerate them.

Yes, there are. Your earlier comment - about this thread being 'pure comedy gold' - indicates that you are disregarding those who are complaining as the latter extreme, that they are whining about 6E simply because it is 6E. Your post also added absolutely nothing to the thread, save to deride those people.

I was pointing out that, while the extremes exist, the people of this thread are not part of it. Legitimate complaints can exist without the general response being "play something else".

EDIT: "it" referring to the "hate new things because they're new" category.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Imperial Monkey wrote:Out of interest, has anyone here tried to make their feelings about it known to GW? Or simply ranted on forums...

They used to have an official forum that the developers would occasionally glance over. They closed it down years ago for some strange reason. Too many gamer opinions perhaps?

Also with allies, are they now officially allowed in any game? Back in the day you could take allies, but it was always a "discuss with opponent" thing, I don't know of anyone who actually integrated allies into their armies.

You are right, they had forums but they took them down as they were using to much 'website and staff resources and time'.
Also my old gaming group 4ed days we had a house rule you could take any one unit from a different codex but it cost double the options on the FOC.


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Also I can imagine a very Rome:Total War mechanic play out of the battles of 6E. You know when your roman legionnaires run right up to your opponent, stop (within charging distance) and start throwing spears at them... just with no charge following it. Unless your not a MEQ then your actually safer IN close combat (so long as you make it through the overwatch shots AND roll high enough for the charge AND the enemy don't have power weapons of any kind OR more Initiative than you) where you'll be perfectly fine with those 5+ saves.

I think the best way to get through would be to have a message sent from lots of people, say on the forum here. One complaining nerd is not going to sway distanced executives/run-of-the-mill GW employee. If it was a concerted move from the largest wargaming forum on the internet on the other hand.....

GW are a company.

What do companies do? Make money, lots of money, especially for shareholders and execs.

Enjoy the ride and play. Don't enjoy it anymore? Then step off the ride and find something else to do.

Because simply giving up years if not decades of time and obscene amounts of money one has put into this hobby is just something that can be done flippantly simply because the new rules are a bit meh.

Ugh.

Well; one has five other editions to potentially play and use. Don't like 6th? Retreat to one of the above five, devise house-rules or jump the ship. Not much else one can do in such a situation, no? GW are a public trading company. I'm going to wave a guess to the wind and say that they'll only ever really listen to shareholders and profit in terms of large directional changes. Not entirely sure what one would plan to achieve with a 'public petition' or any other form of online campaign. We all know how dire GW's relationship with the internet is.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. There will always be new blood coming into 40k, spending money where others have stopped. If you're not willing to find an alternative to 'meh rules' and you're not willing to stop playing, you don't have much to stand on.

Whatever; 6th Edition is great for me. I can finally jump into the hobby and catch up with the ruleset. There'll be many more just like me beyond the internet. The online population are only ever a vocal minority.

I love people complaining about GW changing the rules to make moar profit.
What was, by far and away, the most powerful build of 5th (and still pretty potent in 6th)?
Draigowing.
What was the cheapest army to collect, money wise?
Draigowing.
People need to grow up and view the rules for what they are - rules for a tabletop game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eiríkr wrote:Well; one has five other editions to potentially play and use. Don't like 6th? Retreat to one of the above five, devise house-rules or jump the ship. Not much else one can do in such a situation, no? GW are a public trading company. I'm going to wave a guess to the wind and say that they'll only ever really listen to shareholders and profit in terms of large directional changes. Not entirely sure what one would plan to achieve with a 'public petition' or any other form of online campaign. We all know how dire GW's relationship with the internet is.

No company cares about the internet. They might pretend to, so they can get stories in the newspapers and the national media about how much they care about public opinion. But GW won't. If GW change the rules due to public opinion, they won't get a single inch of newspaper coverage, so what would they have to gain?

6th is a considerable improvement over 5th but still far from perfect, so I understand that people have qualms about it. What bugs me most is people equaling cost to competitivity. Like, "Hey, I've spent 2000+ dollars in my army, it MUST be competitive!" or the variant "GW is making you pay more to remain competitive!".

The former is plain bonkers oil sheik attitude, but the latter actually makes sense. YES, GW is making you pay to remain competitive... If your idea of competitivity involves putting no more thought into the game than whats needed to type "GK list 1500 competitive" in Google. If your ability to compete begins and ends on listbuilding, the game is going to become a REALLY expensive hobby for you. Rules will be revised, codices will be written, FOTM armies won't stay strong forever. It's the way the game works.

I admit, though, that listbuilding is an important part of the game, but not exclusively so. I've seen the universally reviled Eldar, Tau and Wazdakka Ork armies win (or do reasonably well in) tournaments all through 5th. Examples here on Dakka abound, but still some people think that list and list only wins games.

Agent_Tremolo wrote:6th is a considerable improvement over 5th but still far from perfect, so I understand that people have qualms about it. What bugs me most is people equaling cost to competitivity. Like, "Hey, I've spent 2000+ dollars in my army, it MUST be competitive!" or the variant "GW is making you pay more to remain competitive!".

The former is plain bonkers oil sheik attitude, but the latter actually makes sense. YES, GW is making you pay to remain competitive... If your idea of competitivity involves putting no more thought into the game than whats needed to type "GK list 1500 competitive" in Google. If your ability to compete begins and ends on listbuilding, the game is going to become a REALLY expensive hobby for you. Rules will be revised, codices will be written, FOTM armies won't stay strong forever. It's the way the game works.

I admit, though, that listbuilding is an important part of the game, but not exclusively so. I've seen the universally reviled Eldar, Tau and Wazdakka Ork armies win (or do reasonably well in) tournaments all through 5th. Examples here on Dakka abound, but still some people think that list and list only wins games.

Yeah, complains about change in competativeness only really matter in tournaments. If you're playing with friends it's all fun and games, unless it's something drastic.

I wondered where all of the nerd rage was.
I've actually played a couple of games of 6th ed, and I've actually really enjoyed them, I personally prefer it to 5th ed.

However, for the allies thing, I've just completed my new Space Wolves army, I've got enough cheese as it is, no need to go out and spend money on more.

Plus, yes DE got a bit of hurt, a prime example being GW severely battering the WWP via the inability to charge out of reserve, but at least you can have access to some psychic defence now via allying with Eldar.