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I apologize in advance if this is a dumb question or answered somewhere else.

This came up in a recent 6th edition game:
An Orks player moved his squad during the movement phase to this position and then rolled his charge range:



The Ork player rolled a 6 & 3= 9 for his charge range. He moved his front three models into base to base with the front three Ultramarines (closest to closest etc.). Then the fourth Ork was required to move into base to base with a Space Marine in the second row of Space Marines. This was done according to the second to last paragraph on page 21 of the 6th edition rulebook. But in order to do that, the Ork model needed to move through the terrain. Should this affect the charge range? If so, how?

The rules seem to indicate that you determine if you would need to go through terrain before rolling anything. Thus, if with 12 inches of potential movement you would need to go through terrain, roll the extra dice.

Yup. It's like in 5th; if, with a max-range assault move any of your guys would be forced to enter terrain, you'll have to roll.

So this is definitely subject to careful positioning to force the roll. Much moreso than 5th, actually.

Yeah, but......

Here is the problem I have. What if the above situation had them 8" apart and not 2". So now you would only need to go through terrain if you roll a 12.

Do you start by having to roll diff terrain?
Do you roll for regular terrain, but if you get a 12 you reroll?

It seems odd to only fail the charge if you roll well.

Yup. It's like in 5th; if, with a max-range assault move any of your guys would be forced to enter terrain, you'll have to roll.
-Mannahnin

Is that from the first paragraph on page 22? We thought about that, but this situation seemed like a chicken & egg situation because of what coredump points out here:

Here is the problem I have. What if the above situation had them 8" apart and not 2". So now you would only need to go through terrain if you roll a 12.

-coredump

That's what we thought; what if the Ork player rolled a 1 & 2=3 for his charge range? That would require no movement through terrain. We stood there scratching our heads because a short charge range would require no difficult terrain whereas any roll more than 7 or 8 total would require a third dice roll... but you won't know it until after you rolled the first die roll.

If you COULD be forced to go through terrain, you roll. Same as in 5th

Yeah, it's weird, but the only way I can see to resolve it is to say that if a 12 would force you to go through difficult in order to maximize, you'll be forced to roll.

Its the same as 5th, just with "6" range" replaced with a 2D6 variable range

Frenzied units in 8th ed fantasy have to deal with this situation - if they COULD charge they must test to see if they dont have to declare a charge, so they have to assume that M+12" will be their charge range and thus would be required to take the test.

The rule says that you must move into all possible base to base models but with your example, you can not go through cover. There for you can only touch the 3 Space Marines in the front lines.

Now for you this is not an issue because all your orks will be with in 2 inches to get a swing. If you had more orks in that squad then you might have wanted to go through cover.

In your example I would not have gone through cover to reach them. If you would have rolled 3d6 with your 6 and 3. You could have rolled a 1 and then only had a 4 inch charge resulting in only touching the first 3 Space Marines anyways but losing out on 1-3 models out of the fight.

MJThurston, it wasn't impassable terrain was my understanding, so yeah he could have gone through cover to get more guys in base. He should not have rolled the 2d6 before realizing that his models could go through cover to get more guys in base.

As a side note, you may have to roll for the 3d6 difficult terrain, but this does not mean you are init 1. You are only init 1 if one of your models actually moves through difficult terrain.

So in the OP's example, if he rolled that total of 4 inches on 3d6, his orks would still be swinging at full init as no ork could make base contact by going through terrain, and thus no ork needs to actually move through terrain.

But he would have lost swings if he didn't get those last 3 guys with in 2 inches. So as I wrote, don't go through cover in this example. Init 1 or init 3 vs SM's is the same. You swing last.

Plus, what if you are 6" away. It is very possible you would fail the assault completely.

Plus, what if you are 6" away. It is very possible you would fail the assault completely.

This is what struck me as the oddest part; because we're within 12" of terrain, we need to roll even if the distance between closest-to-closest is small.

hmm.. for this situation, I'd see if my opponent agreed. instead of rerolling all the dice, since you only did 2d6 then found out you had to move through terrain. just roll another d6 then take the two lowest.

You do not have to go through terrain. You just have to touch all enemy bases before you can just get throw ins (with in 2" of a model in b2b with the enemy).

The rule book doesn't pigeon hole you into having to go through cover.

As long as the ork's moved their 9 inches and where in a big group with the 3 Space Marines then the rule is used correctly. Now the Space Marines could go through cover on their consolidation move because they get to ignore cover.

As I said. It is much better to just roll 2d6 in the picture than to go through cover.

MJThurston wrote:You do not have to go through terrain. You just have to touch all enemy bases before you can just get throw ins (with in 2" of a model in b2b with the enemy).

The rule book doesn't pigeon hole you into having to go through cover.

As long as the ork's moved their 9 inches and where in a big group with the 3 Space Marines then the rule is used correctly. Now the Space Marines could go through cover on their consolidation move because they get to ignore cover.

As I said. It is much better to just roll 2d6 in the picture than to go through cover.

Yes, it absolutely does. You must, must move your models into base contact with enemy models in the target unit if you can (and even more specific: enemy models that haven't already been contacted, actually). If that means you'd have to go through cover to do so, then you have to roll.

The diagram and explanation on page 22 makes this perfectly clear. This exactly the same as it was in 5th edition and if anything at all has changed its simply that they've made it even more clear that you have to do so.

So in the example at the top of this thread, since the charging unit has more than 3 models in it, and they will be able to theoretically reach the back ranks of enemy guys if they were to move 12" through terrain, they MUST test. The rules require them to do so, and yes this can cause the whole charge to fail in the first place.

MJThurston wrote:The rule book doesn't pigeon hole you into having to go through cover.

Ah, but they can. You are required to move closest to closest first, then unengaged to unengaged if possible. Unengaged models in cover or behind cover could force you to take a DT tets for charging.

MJThurston wrote:You do not have to go through terrain. You just have to touch all enemy bases before you can just get throw ins (with in 2" of a model in b2b with the enemy).

The rule book doesn't pigeon hole you into having to go through cover.

As long as the ork's moved their 9 inches and where in a big group with the 3 Space Marines then the rule is used correctly. Now the Space Marines could go through cover on their consolidation move because they get to ignore cover.

As I said. It is much better to just roll 2d6 in the picture than to go through cover.

Right, but if you roll a 10 for example, the back irks need to try and base a model. Which means they have to go through difficult terrain.
Must, not may.
Ninjaed TWICE.

At least in 6th you're not penalized for testing but not being able to actually go around and base.

Green is Best! wrote:

MJThurston wrote:The rule book doesn't pigeon hole you into having to go through cover.

Ah, but they can. You are required to move closest to closest first, then unengaged to unengaged if possible. Unengaged models in cover or behind cover could force you to take a DT tets for charging.

That is incorrect too. Charging models must attempt to reach base contact with an enemy model that is not already in base contact with another charging model. Not just unengaged models and not even just into base contact...they must go for enemy models that have not already been contacted by another charging model.

ninja'd too many times to make it worth keeping the post.

Since you're moving into him from at max (6"?) I think it'd be safe to assume that you simply move as close on the difficult terrain. If models can't be brought to base, bring them as close as Orishly possible.

Scipio Africanus wrote:Since you're moving into him from at max (6"?) I think it'd be safe to assume that you simply move as close on the difficult terrain. If models can't be brought to base, bring them as close as Orishly possible.

Max is now 12". And since you're required to base models, in the scenario in the OP he would be required to roll the third die, take the 2 lowest and move through terrain (dropping his init to 1).

Ah, I see the problem. It's the knit one, not the charge range.

And, I meant distance to the enemy, not charge range as a value.

rigeld2 wrote:

Scipio Africanus wrote:Since you're moving into him from at max (6"?) I think it'd be safe to assume that you simply move as close on the difficult terrain. If models can't be brought to base, bring them as close as Orishly possible.

Max is now 12". And since you're required to base models, in the scenario in the OP he would be required to roll the third die, take the 2 lowest and move through terrain (dropping his init to 1).

Unless the 3rd dice made the charge range 4" or less, in which case no ork would pass through terrain and strike at initiative.

I agree with the method that in situations where the target unit is not IN cover, but has terrain around it and could potentially slow an assault, first roll 2d6. If the rolled range would get you in B2B with a model after travelling into terrain, roll a 3rd d6 and adjust your assault range accordingly. It's neat, no mess, and still goes by the rule.

The rules say you must move max distance to touch unengaged models. This does not mean you have to automatically go into terrain. This means that you touch as many bases with the models that you can touch. The other guys must move into b2b with your own guys and fill up all the space without going into terrain.

I could have a guy 13 inches from you but the closest is 6 inches away. Does that one guy force you to make a 3d6 check? Does a guy 12 inches away force this also? No....

If the closest guy to you is in cover then you have to roll 3d6. If the closest guy is not in cover than you are not forced to roll 3d6.

MJThurston wrote:The rules say you must move max distance to touch unengaged models. This does not mean you have to automatically go into terrain. This means that you touch as many bases with the models that you can touch. The other guys must move into b2b with your own guys and fill up all the space without going into terrain.

That would be great if it was the actual rules.

page 21 wrote:If possible, a charging model must move into base contact with an enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with another charging model. If there are no
such enemy models in reach, the model must move into base contact with an enemy model that is already in base contact with a charging model.

See how it says enemy models? If you can reach, you must.

I could have a guy 13 inches from you but the closest is 6 inches away. Does that one guy force you to make a 3d6 check? Does a guy 12 inches away force this also? No....

If you can reach someone, you must. Therefore you must take difficult terrain into account.

If the closest guy to you is in cover then you have to roll 3d6. If the closest guy is not in cover than you are not forced to roll 3d6.

Wrong, as I've proven.

yakface wrote:

MJThurston wrote:You do not have to go through terrain. You just have to touch all enemy bases before you can just get throw ins (with in 2" of a model in b2b with the enemy).

The rule book doesn't pigeon hole you into having to go through cover.

As long as the ork's moved their 9 inches and where in a big group with the 3 Space Marines then the rule is used correctly. Now the Space Marines could go through cover on their consolidation move because they get to ignore cover.

As I said. It is much better to just roll 2d6 in the picture than to go through cover.

Yes, it absolutely does. You must, must move your models into base contact with enemy models in the target unit if you can (and even more specific: enemy models that haven't already been contacted, actually). If that means you'd have to go through cover to do so, then you have to roll.

The diagram and explanation on page 22 makes this perfectly clear. This exactly the same as it was in 5th edition and if anything at all has changed its simply that they've made it even more clear that you have to do so.

So in the example at the top of this thread, since the charging unit has more than 3 models in it, and they will be able to theoretically reach the back ranks of enemy guys if they were to move 12" through terrain, they MUST test. The rules require them to do so, and yes this can cause the whole charge to fail in the first place.

Did not see it run this way in 5th, and I don't see that you are forced to in 6th either. In the case pictured in OP, BECAUSE only 2d6 was rerolled the Orks can not move through the terrain so only the first line gets in to b2b ant eh rest of the orks have to wait there turn. IF 3d6 been rolled then then the Orks would be required to move through the terrain to b2b all the models. I am going to have a look at this again tonight.

barnowl wrote:Did not see it run this way in 5th

You should have.

and I don't see that you are forced to in 6th either. In the case pictured in OP, BECAUSE only 2d6 was rerolled the Orks can not move through the terrain so only the first line gets in to b2b ant eh rest of the orks have to wait there turn. IF 3d6 been rolled then then the Orks would be required to move through the terrain to b2b all the models. I am going to have a look at this again tonight.

You don't have an option - if you can base an extra model by moving through cover, you must. The assault rules are pretty straightforward on that.

The way I see it in your picture is you would just pile in from behind. all you really need is base to base with friendlies as well. Charging through cover or terrain in this instance would make you I1 yes?

MJThurston wrote:The rules say you must move max distance to touch unengaged models. This does not mean you have to automatically go into terrain. This means that you touch as many bases with the models that you can touch. The other guys must move into b2b with your own guys and fill up all the space without going into terrain.

I could have a guy 13 inches from you but the closest is 6 inches away. Does that one guy force you to make a 3d6 check? Does a guy 12 inches away force this also? No....

If the closest guy to you is in cover then you have to roll 3d6. If the closest guy is not in cover than you are not forced to roll 3d6.

You keep saying this, but the rules very clearly disagree with you! So saying it over and over doesn't make it true. Please read the example diagram in the bottom left side of page 22 in the rulebook. It clearly shows Eldar Guardians that HAVE to roll for Difficult Terrain because they CAN potentially reach Space Marines on the other side of a crater, even though those 2 Guardians could easily move 'around' the crater and still wind up within 2" of other Guardians who would get into base contact without going through terrain.

So again, if models MIGHT be able to reach enemy models by going through terrain, then the unit MUST take a dangerous terrain test even if doing so may result in the charge failing.