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back to this one..necron death ray on the doom scythe , page 50, necron codex..2 questions, ...

1st .......... the way its worded ....to fire the weapon...(to fre the death ray, nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere within the weapons range).......question being..with the way this is worded perhaps could this be considered you might not need a los for the 1st nominated point?

2nd..... if it does need los for the 1st point, does the flyer have a fireing ark it is required and what is it?.....

both questions if anyone knows would be apreciated...and please have a refrance page/book/ and or faq for answers....i dont care for the...ohh, i think it means......

thanks ....

Since I was the one discussing this with you at the FLGS I won't weigh in on how I feel it works, but I'll clarify a few things so others can discuss it.

1. Since the death ray nominates two points that the line is drawn from then to, can one of the points be nominated to be out of line of sight of the firing model?

2. If line of sight is not needed, and if the model has only a 45 degree arc of fire for being a "fixed hull weapon", must both of those points be within that firing arc for the line to be drawn to?

ya, I agree on the other 2 questions as well, if anyone have some insight would be helpful... the thing is I want to consider running 2 of their flyers at 2k, but at about 50$ x2 about 100$ I feel a hundred dollar question, I am looking for at least get a 50 dollar answer :/

This is my 2 cents answer, but i hope it suffices:

The death ray works by selecting a point anywhere within the weapon's range, and then another point 3d6 from the first.

1) It does not indicate that the doomscythe needs to have LOS on either of those points, and so the general rules for the targetting something do not apply.
2) The range of the weapon is determined by it's stat-line. The 'arc of fire' of the weapon is not referenced for the death rays' ability and as such doesn't apply either.

In short you can put the death-ray anywhere within the listed range of the gun, and more or less completely ignore most LOS issues which may arise from such. I'd presume whatever is shot would still have cover if it has such from the perspective of the doom-scythe itself though.

Don't have the BRB in front of me, but isn't there something to the effect of you cannot kill models you cannot draw LOS to?

Green is Best! wrote:Don't have the BRB in front of me, but isn't there something to the effect of you cannot kill models you cannot draw LOS to?

That's for wound allocation from shooting attacks - you can't allocate wounds to models that can't be seen by any models from the attacking unit.

That is a good point: While you do ignore LOS for the 'placing' of the death-ray, you don't get to apply any 'wounds' to your target unless you have LOS on it.

interesting. i didnt think of translating it in this way...something to consider...anyone eles have anything?

Can the death ray hit targets on the ground and in the air at the same time?

It does not explicitly say it cannot.

I have two more questions to ask about Death Rays:

1. Regarding the rule where if you're firing from within 2" of a unit in cover, that unit doesn't get it's cover save, where does this originate from for Death Rays? The gun barrel, or the point nominated?

2. Is it just me, or does it not make sense that Death Rays can nominate a point directly in front of it, and then draw the arc like, 90 degrees angled to the right, or even backwards? I had a case where a Doom Scythe overshot it's target with it's 18" minimum Zoom move and then nominated the first point right below it, and then the second point behind the Doom Scythe. How does the weapon's 45-degree arc-of-fire factor in to the nomination of points?


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daedalus-templarius wrote:Can the death ray hit targets on the ground and in the air at the same time?

It does not explicitly say it cannot.

Don't you have to declare Skyfire if you're shooting air units?

daedalus-templarius wrote:Can the death ray hit targets on the ground and in the air at the same time?

It does not explicitly say it cannot.

Reread Skyfire. If you shoot at Flyers, you CANNOT hit the ground, and vice versa.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:Can the death ray hit targets on the ground and in the air at the same time?

It does not explicitly say it cannot.

Reread Skyfire. If you shoot at Flyers, you CANNOT hit the ground, and vice versa.

The necron player I was fighting wasn't using it to hit both, but he was confused about how it worked with skyfire I guess.

A little off-topic here, but if a Storm Raven declares POTMS, can it shoot both air and land?

I must be missing the rule...but indirect fire weapons like a marine whirlwind or I think a guard basilisk...unless there is an entry somewhere that lets then fire, and wound that I am not seeing, or they too would fall under the los requirements for wounding...I have considered the entry for the death ray and general I found that 50% of people might have considered that it may be also figured the weapon could be used as indirect fire as per the wording..

Neorealist wrote:This is my 2 cents answer, but i hope it suffices:

The death ray works by selecting a point anywhere within the weapon's range, and then another point 3d6 from the first.

1) It does not indicate that the doomscythe needs to have LOS on either of those points, and so the general rules for the targetting something do not apply.
2) The range of the weapon is determined by it's stat-line. The 'arc of fire' of the weapon is not referenced for the death rays' ability and as such doesn't apply either.

In short you can put the death-ray anywhere within the listed range of the gun, and more or less completely ignore most LOS issues which may arise from such. I'd presume whatever is shot would still have cover if it has such from the perspective of the doom-scythe itself though.

Two problems I see with that line of reasoning.

In response to number 1- The death ray is not prevented from hitting multiple units, that much is true. However, if you target a unit with another weapon on the doom scythe, then the death ray MUST hit at least one model in that unit, as there is nothing allowing you to allow it to shoot at a separate target. While the death ray is unique in it's "targeting" rules, it still must follow the rules for all weapons that it must shoot at the same unit as the rest of the weapons, unless a rule shows otherwise.

And in response to number 2- Remember, permissive rule set means that we must have permission to ignore the restrictions of weapon firing arc. The, It doesn't say it can't, argument doesn't work. It has to say you can.


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Enigwolf wrote:A little off-topic here, but if a Storm Raven declares POTMS, can it shoot both air and land?

It can, but if you choose skyfire with the storm raven all shots taken at the ground are snap shots, and vice versa.


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kobalt35 wrote:I must be missing the rule...but indirect fire weapons like a marine whirlwind or I think a guard basilisk...unless there is an entry somewhere that lets then fire, and wound that I am not seeing, or they too would fall under the los requirements for wounding...I have considered the entry for the death ray and general I found that 50% of people might have considered that it may be also figured the weapon could be used as indirect fire as per the wording..

Both of those weapons have the barrage special rule that allows them to wound models that they do not have line of sight to.

Lone Dragoon wrote:And in response to number 2- Remember, permissive rule set means that we must have permission to ignore the restrictions of weapon firing arc. The, It doesn't say it can't, argument doesn't work. It has to say you can.

Sorry, I didn't quite understand that regarding firing arcs, could you clarify a little more, in regards to what I posted earlier about firing arcs?

Enigwolf wrote:2. Is it just me, or does it not make sense that Death Rays can nominate a point directly in front of it, and then draw the arc like, 90 degrees angled to the right, or even backwards? I had a case where a Doom Scythe overshot it's target with it's 18" minimum Zoom move and then nominated the first point right below it, and then the second point behind the Doom Scythe. How does the weapon's 45-degree arc-of-fire factor in to the nomination of points?

Lone Dragoon wrote:

In response to number 1- The death ray is not prevented from hitting multiple units, that much is true. However, if you target a unit with another weapon on the doom scythe, then the death ray MUST hit at least one model in that unit, as there is nothing allowing you to allow it to shoot at a separate target. While the death ray is unique in it's "targeting" rules, it still must follow the rules for all weapons that it must shoot at the same unit as the rest of the weapons, unless a rule shows otherwise.

This part is found on necron codex page 50 last 1/4 of the *death ray*.(((.....if the vehicals other weaponary is fired in the same shooting phase, it must fire at one of the units hit by the death ray))


so this one is easy to address..

There's a similar thread here

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/462368.page

Lone Dragoon wrote:Since I was the one discussing this with you at the FLGS I won't weigh in on how I feel it works, but I'll clarify a few things so others can discuss it.

1. Since the death ray nominates two points that the line is drawn from then to, can one of the points be nominated to be out of line of sight of the firing model?

2. If line of sight is not needed, and if the model has only a 45 degree arc of fire for being a "fixed hull weapon", must both of those points be within that firing arc for the line to be drawn to?

Its fixed? Mine swivels just fine. I magnatized it so I can run my two flyers as doom or night. with the little ball socket, I assumed it was designed to swivel.

It doesn't answer the arc of fire issue.

Enigwolf wrote:It doesn't answer the arc of fire issue.

Oh that's easy. It doesn't have an arc of fire.

You select a point in a radius of 12" from the flyer. You then draw a line of 3d6" from that point in any direction.
That's it.

Enigwolf wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote:And in response to number 2- Remember, permissive rule set means that we must have permission to ignore the restrictions of weapon firing arc. The, It doesn't say it can't, argument doesn't work. It has to say you can.

Sorry, I didn't quite understand that regarding firing arcs, could you clarify a little more, in regards to what I posted earlier about firing arcs?

What that means is that if a death ray is a fixed point (using IF here, since there are still conversions out there that they might be fixed). We have permission to fire the weapon. We do not have permission to ignore the arc of fire if it were say a hull mounted weapon. The death ray does not give that permission, it says to nominate two points. However there is no rule allowing it to ignore the restriction of if it were hull mounted.

Yup. Thought i'd already addressed the 'arc of fire' question in an earlier post, but i'll happily restate it.

The death-ray rules exclude (as in, takes priory over) the normal sequence of checks for arc-of-fire and LOS and skip right to the 'hits are applied' part of the shooting phase after estabishing who is hit automatically via the two points and a drawn line between them.

At no point in determining those two points are you required to check for arc of fire like you would with a normal vehicle mounted shooting weapon. By telling you to 'pick a point in range' you ignore the normal targetting rules altogether. (which include checking for arc-of-fire restrictions)

Normal:
Choose a Target: Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a target for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enerny unit you are targeting...

Doomscythe:
... nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere within the weapons range, and then nominate a second point 3d6" from the first. Then draw a straight lines between the two points .Every unit (friendly or enemy) under the line suffers a number of hits...

Got it. Thanks a lot!

Neorealist wrote:Yup. Thought i'd already addressed the 'arc of fire' question in an earlier post, but i'll happily restate it.

The death-ray rules exclude (as in, takes priory over) the normal sequence of checks for arc-of-fire and LOS and skip right to the 'hits are applied' part of the shooting phase after estabishing who is hit automatically via the two points and a drawn line between them.

At no point in determining those two points are you required to check for arc of fire like you would with a normal vehicle mounted shooting weapon. By telling you to 'pick a point in range' you ignore the normal targetting rules altogether. (which include checking for arc-of-fire restrictions)

Normal:
Choose a Target: Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a target for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enerny unit you are targeting...

Doomscythe:
... nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere within the weapons range, and then nominate a second point 3d6" from the first. Then draw a straight lines between the two points .Every unit (friendly or enemy) under the line suffers a number of hits...

Nothing in the rules for the Death Ray states anything about excluding the normal rules. All shooting from the vehicle is done at the same time. At that point when you nominate you are going to shoot with the Doom Scythe, you must check line of sight for each weapon that will be shooting. Remember, this is done before any rolls to hit are made (or lines are drawn). What you're doing is putting the cart before the horse, in other words going through the operation out of order. Once line of sight is drawn from the weapon to the target (remember, we still have the Tesla Destructor we can fire) then we make our rolls to hit. Now is when we have the death ray's rules kicking in. We've already checked line of sight from said weapon (Again I'm just using a hull mounted weapon for the sake of this argument), and now must nominate two points. Show where we have permission to deviate from the line of sight rules, and may select a point outside of an arc of fire. The same can be said for nominating a point behind LoS blocking terrain. We have no rule to override that. Remember, before the death ray ever gets a chance to fire and use its special rules, we have already checked line of sight.

I'm sorry Lone Dragoon, but you are incorrect in this instance. As i've outlined above (and you've apparently quoted in your answer but chose to not address for some reason?) you are never required to pick a specific target for the death-ray (and so are not subject to the 'choose a target' rules which include checking for LOS) but instead select a point on the board within range of the weapon. I do agree that the other doom-scythe weapons (if any) would have to follow the normal rules for such, no one is disputing that aspect of things.

daedalus-templarius wrote:Can the death ray hit targets on the ground and in the air at the same time?

It does not explicitly say it cannot.

Yes, see two other recent YMDC posts. People who say it can't aren't following RAW.


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Lone Dragoon wrote:

Neorealist wrote:Yup. Thought i'd already addressed the 'arc of fire' question in an earlier post, but i'll happily restate it.

The death-ray rules exclude (as in, takes priory over) the normal sequence of checks for arc-of-fire and LOS and skip right to the 'hits are applied' part of the shooting phase after estabishing who is hit automatically via the two points and a drawn line between them.

At no point in determining those two points are you required to check for arc of fire like you would with a normal vehicle mounted shooting weapon. By telling you to 'pick a point in range' you ignore the normal targetting rules altogether. (which include checking for arc-of-fire restrictions)

Normal:
Choose a Target: Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a target for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enerny unit you are targeting...

Doomscythe:
... nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere within the weapons range, and then nominate a second point 3d6" from the first. Then draw a straight lines between the two points .Every unit (friendly or enemy) under the line suffers a number of hits...

Nothing in the rules for the Death Ray states anything about excluding the normal rules.

"To fire the Death Ray, <do all these things that don't follow the normal shooting sequence as described on pg 12 BRB">


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CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Enigwolf wrote:It doesn't answer the arc of fire issue.

Oh that's easy. It doesn't have an arc of fire.

You select a point in a radius of 12" from the flyer. You then draw a line of 3d6" from that point in any direction.
That's it.

This I'm not convinced about. The Death Ray seems pretty clearly to me to be a hull-mounted weapon, and would be subject to a 45 degree firing arc. Otherwise it could fire behind it, which would be silly.

it looks more like an turret mounted underneath the doomscythes' hull to me, but i believe the normal arc-of-fire does not matter for it in any case.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2390174a_99120110023_Doomscythe360_445x319.jpg

Ostrakon wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:Can the death ray hit targets on the ground and in the air at the same time?

It does not explicitly say it cannot.

Yes, see two other recent YMDC posts. People who say it can't aren't following RAW.

Actually, RAW says it won't hit. The hard to hit rule says shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots (unless the model or weapon has the skyfire rule as described on page 42). If you nominate the Doom scythe to have Skyfire, you need not snap fire to hit flyers. However to hit ground targets you must fire a snap shot. The death ray falls under the exclusion for snap shots, "It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic skill- such as the necron monolith's portal of exile- cannot be 'fired' as a snap shot. It does not use the ballistic skill, so it is unable to snap shot. So if you choose skyfire you can hit flyers, skimmers, and flying monstrous creatures only, nothing else. If you do not give it skyfire for the turn it may hit other unit types, but cannot hit flyers or flying monstrous creatures because the shot was not resolved via snap shot.

Ostrakon wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lone Dragoon wrote: Nothing in the rules for the Death Ray states anything about excluding the normal rules.

"To fire the Death Ray, <do all these things that don't follow the normal shooting sequence as described on pg 12 BRB">

Except those are rules to fire the weapon. The discussion is about line of sight for the weapon, which are not excluded, as line of sight is checked before the weapon is ever fired.

Pg50 : "to fire the death ray, nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere within the weapon's range, then nominate a second point within 3d6" of the first"

See the "anywhere"? That means arc of fire doesn't matter when the death ray in concerned. All that matters is range.

I know, its a bit silly to visualize, but that's what it implies. I guess its to represent the ray blazing away in transit.