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Lone Dragoon wrote:Except those are rules to fire the weapon. The discussion is about line of sight for the weapon, which are not excluded, as line of sight is checked before the weapon is ever fired.

I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. You check LOS 'after' declaring a target for your attack. (as per my rules quote above) The doomscythe skips that part entirely in favour of asking you to 'select a point in range' instead.

Ostrakon wrote:The game doesn't know what it's firing at until whatever is under the line gets hit. Death Ray circumvents both the "Choose a Target" and the "Roll to Hit" sections of the page 12 Shooting sequence.

The only time you're going to hit a "does this need to be snap-fired" check with a line/beam attack is if you were stunned/shaken in the previous turn, or if you evaded.

Since you never select a target and it's not a template, it indiscriminately hits everything under the line. Weapons that don't use BS can't be FIRED as snap shot, but by the time you draw the line, the weapon has already fired. If it hits both a ground and flying target, you'd have to retroactively invalidate the shot to satisfy the snapfire rule if it was true that you were 'targeting' units hit by it. However there is NO evidence to suggest that either of those cases are true.

Skyfire or not will determine what will or won't be snap shots with the Tesla destructor though.

I'll answer your other post here, since you'll likely just repost it as your argument. The problem with your logic, while a flyer may be under the line, the reason the shot misses is the resolution of the shot. To resolve the shot at a flyer, you must make a snap shot or have the skyfire rule. The reason you are able to hit ground units but not flyers (if you don't have skyfire) is that you can resolve the shot as normal against the ground units, you don't need skyfire to do that. However if I use something that automatically hits against a flyer, I am unable to resolve what the hit does because there was no snap shot made. If you did not snap shot, you cannot resolve the shooting attack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Neorealist wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote:Except those are rules to fire the weapon. The discussion is about line of sight for the weapon, which are not excluded, as line of sight is checked before the weapon is ever fired.

I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. You check LOS 'after' declaring a target for your attack. (as per my rules quote above) The doomscythe skips that part entirely in favour of asking you to 'select a point in range' instead.

Step by step it is;
1. Nominate unite to shoot
2. Choose a Target
3. Check line of Sight
4. Check range.
5. Determine what models may fire.
6. Roll to hit.

What you're trying to say is that nominating the point falls at point 2. However it falls at point 6. Drawing the line between the two points is done instead of rolling to hit. It is not done as soon as you choose your target for the vehicle to fire at, it is done when you determine hits on said unit. Step by step here is how the death ray works, because you're not working through it in proper order.

1. The Doom scythe is nominated to shoot.
2. I choose the Tactical Squad of marines that I know to be 10" away because I am allowed to pre-measure.
3. I draw my line of sight with the Tesla Destructor, they fall within the arc of fire for the weapon. Now I draw line of sight with the Death ray (assuming it is hull mounted), and find the unit is in the 45 degree arc of fire, and my two points I am going to nominate are as well.
4. I now check range, and well well it's the same 10" I knew it to be.
5. As both weapons on the doom scythe have line of sight, they both may fire.
6. The Tesla destructor rolls to hit, rerolling failed to hit rolls due to Twin-link. The death ray now nominates the first point, rolls 3d6, and nominates the second point and the unit takes a number of hits equal to the amount of models under that line.

What you aren't understanding in all this is that the death ray does not target a unit, the Doom Scythe targets the unit and must direct its weapons fire against that un. If the Doom Scythe targets said unit of space marines, the line MUST pass over one model in the unit because you are not allowed to select a different target than the other weapons on the vehicle. You ARE given permission to hit additional units, but you must first still hit the targeted unit since the Doom scythe targets a unit, not the death ray.

What I don’t get is the confusion and the retranslations....I was always told that there will be a time that a rule may not be in the phb, and you will have to refer to the codex in unique situations ...page 50, necron codex.... worded....

*****Death ray: To fire the death ray, nominate a point on
the battlefield anywhere within the weapon's range. Then
nominate a second point within 3D6" of the first. Then, draw
a straight line between the two points. Every unit (friendly or
enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to
the number of models in the unit underneath the line. If the
vehicle's other weaponry is fired in the same shooting phase,
it must be fired at one of the units hit by the death ray. *****


seeing there is no other weapon to compare to it, and it pretty much starts and ends as....to fire the death ray.....I would think its pretty clear on how it works...so why is it that so many have a diff translation on how it works?..

Lone Dragoon wrote:
Step by step it is;
1. Nominate unite to shoot
2. Choose a Target
3. Check line of Sight
4. Check range.
5. Determine what models may fire.
6. Roll to hit.

What you're trying to say is that nominating the point falls at point 2. However it falls at point 6. Drawing the line between the two points is done instead of rolling to hit. It is not done as soon as you choose your target for the vehicle to fire at, it is done when you determine hits on said unit. Step by step here is how the death ray works, because you're not working through it in proper order.

1. The Doom scythe is nominated to shoot.
2. I choose the Tactical Squad of marines that I know to be 10" away because I am allowed to pre-measure.
3. I draw my line of sight with the Tesla Destructor, they fall within the arc of fire for the weapon. Now I draw line of sight with the Death ray (assuming it is hull mounted), and find the unit is in the 45 degree arc of fire, and my two points I am going to nominate are as well.
4. I now check range, and well well it's the same 10" I knew it to be.
5. As both weapons on the doom scythe have line of sight, they both may fire.
6. The Tesla destructor rolls to hit, rerolling failed to hit rolls due to Twin-link. The death ray now nominates the first point, rolls 3d6, and nominates the second point and the unit takes a number of hits equal to the amount of models under that line.

What you aren't understanding in all this is that the death ray does not target a unit, the Doom Scythe targets the unit and must direct its weapons fire against that un. If the Doom Scythe targets said unit of space marines, the line MUST pass over one model in the unit because you are not allowed to select a different target than the other weapons on the vehicle. You ARE given permission to hit additional units, but you must first still hit the targeted unit since the Doom scythe targets a unit, not the death ray.

To use your steps above, steps 2-6 are replaced as follows when discussing the death-ray:
1. Nominate unit to shoot (the Doom-scythe)
2. Choose a weapon on it to fire with. (death ray)
3. Choose a point within range of the weapon
4. Choose another point 3d6" from the first
5. Draw a line between those two points, anything found underneath is automatically hit with the death-ray.
6. (there is no step 6 for this weapon)
7. Allocate wounds as normal

See what i did there? You are not required to check LOS for the vehicle as a whole, but instead from and for each weapon you want to fire on it following the normal procedure for such. (or as modified; like in the case of the death-ray). You have the tesla weapon pretty much nailed, but it seems the death-ray is still turning out to be complicated.

Neorealist wrote:
To use your steps above, steps 2-6 are replaced as follows when discussing the death-ray:
1. Nominate unit to shoot (the Doom-scythe)
2. Choose a weapon on it to fire with. (death ray)
3. Choose a point within range of the weapon
4. Choose another point 3d6" from the first
5. Draw a line between those two points, anything found underneath is automatically hit with the death-ray.
6. (there is no step 6 for this weapon)
7. Allocate wounds as normal

See what i did there? You are not required to check LOS for the vehicle as a whole, but instead from and for each weapon you want to fire on it following the normal procedure for such. (or as modified; like in the case of the death-ray). You have the tesla weapon pretty much nailed, but it seems the death-ray is still turning out to be complicated.

Show where you "choose a weapon on it to fire with." All the firing on a vehicle is done at the same time. You can choose to resolve one and then the other for clarity's sake, but you do not "choose a weapon on it to fire with." My list came straight from the rule book page 12, your list is a made up logic that is being used to twist the rules to fit the death ray rather than incorporating the death ray into the rules properly. There is nothing that supports your order of operations list.

Neorealist wrote:To use your steps above, steps 2-6 are replaced as follows when discussing the death-ray:
1. Nominate unit to shoot (the Doom-scythe)
2. Choose a weapon on it to fire with. (death ray)
3. Choose a point within range of the weapon
4. Choose another point 3d6" from the first
5. Draw a line between those two points, anything found underneath is automatically hit with the death-ray.
6. ???
6.5 PROFIT!
7. Allocate wounds as normal

Fixed that for you.

Lone Dragoon wrote:Show where you "choose a weapon on it to fire with." All the firing on a vehicle is done at the same time. You can choose to resolve one and then the other for clarity's sake, but you do not "choose a weapon on it to fire with." My list came straight from the rule book page 12, your list is a made up logic that is being used to twist the rules to fit the death ray rather than incorporating the death ray into the rules properly. There is nothing that supports your order of operations list.

Certainly, though i'm not a big fan of the implication that i'm making things up when i've been quoting directly from the necron codex and 6th ed main rule book.

To more specifically answer your question however please refer to the 6th ed main book. I'm going to quote a few relevent excerpts from the 'shooting' and 'vehicles' sections below:
...A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers...
...When firing a vehicle's weapons, ranges are measured from the muzzle of the firing weapon, whilst line of sight is determined from the weapons mounting point and along it's barrel...
...If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle's weapons, then work out the cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a seperate firing unit...

That and the images of various LOS depictions on page 72 of the main book should indicate quite clearly how you have check if each weapon can fire independantly.

Happyjew wrote:Fixed that for you.

Well said!

Since it doesn't specifically state what type of hull mounting the Tesla Destructor and therefore the Death Ray which is attached to it is, i will say that in the Night Sycthe fluff, 5th line down it does state and i quote 'With its turret mounted Tesla Destructor', now by no means is this a confirmation that it is turret mounted and thus has a full 360 degree firing angle but it lends credence to that side of the discussion since this is not resolved anywhere else.

Neorealist wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote:Show where you "choose a weapon on it to fire with." All the firing on a vehicle is done at the same time. You can choose to resolve one and then the other for clarity's sake, but you do not "choose a weapon on it to fire with." My list came straight from the rule book page 12, your list is a made up logic that is being used to twist the rules to fit the death ray rather than incorporating the death ray into the rules properly. There is nothing that supports your order of operations list.

Certainly, though i'm not a big fan of the implication that i'm making things up when i've been quoting directly from the necron codex and 6th ed main rule book.

To more specifically answer your question however please refer to the 6th ed main book. I'm going to quote a few relevent excerpts from the 'shooting' and 'vehicles' sections below:
...A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers...
...When firing a vehicle's weapons, ranges are measured from the muzzle of the firing weapon, whilst line of sight is determined from the weapons mounting point and along it's barrel...
...If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle's weapons, then work out the cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a seperate firing unit...

That and the images of various LOS depictions on page 72 of the main book should indicate quite clearly how you have check if each weapon can fire independantly.

If you're quoting your list directly from the Necron codex and/or the 6th ed main rule book, can I get a page number? That list never appears in either, that's what I mean by it's a made up argument to twist the rules to fit the death ray.

The closest you have to choose a weapon to fire with is a player can choose not to fire a weapon, while you can look at it as, "I've chosen not to fire with all these weapons, so that means I've chosen to fire with this one." The fact that you're begging the question is a logical fallacy for an argument, one we've all made. Without proof to support the statement of chosen to not fire all those weapons is the same as choosing to fire Weapon X, it is not a valid argument. Now, all those other rules actually hurt your case a little more.

...When firing a vehicle's weapons, ranges are measured from the muzzle of the firing weapon, whilst line of sight is determined from the weapons mounting point and along it's barrel...

This is the point I've been trying to make all along, you do not have permission to ignore line of sight restrictions for the death ray. There is clause in the rules for the death ray that circumvents this rule.

...If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle's weapons, then work out the cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a seperate firing unit...

Again, not a good quote to use. The reason why is that you work out cover saves as if the weapons were a separate unit, but are they counting as a separate unit for drawing line of sight or actually shooting? No, only for determining cover saves based on line of sight, notice it's not line of sight in general just for determining cover saves.

Keep in mind, unless the weapon has a special rule that allows it to target another unit(such as PotMS), the weapons never fire "independently." They fire independent of one another yes, but not independently of the vehicle. The same rules must apply to death rays, as applies to blast weapons, as applies to template weapons, as applies to witchfire attacks. They are all shooting attacks, and all follow the same six steps as I laid out before. Some have additional rules, such as blast weapons rolling scatter instead of a normal ballistic skill check, but they still operate within the rules. They rules are not altered to fit those weapons.

You certainly may. the rules for the doomscythe i've quoted elsewhere in this thread can be found on page 50 of the 5th edition necron codex, and the rules for shooting are likewise from page 12 of the 6th edition main book.

Lone Dragoon wrote:This is the point I've been trying to make all along, you do not have permission to ignore line of sight restrictions for the death ray. There is clause in the rules for the death ray that circumvents this rule.

Normally you would be required to check that sure, but just as you say there is a clause in the Death Ray rules text which indicates you do 'not' need to check for LOS for it but instead simply pick a spot on the table that is within range.

You'll note i'm not trying to say that the model can fire it's death-ray independantly of the tesla destructor, just that you have to resolve it's effects differently than you would a normal gun like the Tesla since it uses different rules. You do not make one LOS check for the model; you make one for the Tesla Destructor and then (normally) you'd also make one for the Death Ray, except that it's own rules supercede that latter check.

That was supposed to be there is no clause...

The rules for the death ray however supersede the to hit rule. They do not override the line of sight rule, nor do they override the cover rules, or any other rules besides to hit, and how the models are hit.

If you'll notice, you have permission to use a different style to hit than normal shooting. Drawing the line is similar to using a beam attack, it's similar to JotWW, it's similar to a number of attacks, but the mechanic that makes it different than those, it has to nominate 2 points. The nomination of those 2 points, and the line drawn between them only overrule the to hit roll. We still roll to wound normally, we still check line of sight for the weapon (if it is hull mounted), we still do everything normally, except roll to hit. Instead we use the line mechanic. The first two words of the death ray rule tell us everything about the rule in question, to fire. That means that the entire rule is how to fire the weapon. If the paragraph is supposed to explain how to fire the weapon, everything that comes before firing (steps 1 through 5 on the list I gave) must remain unchanged because we do not have an exception allowing us to ignore the other rules that come before shooting (or firing) the weapon.

Lone Dragoon wrote:That was supposed to be there is no clause...

The rules for the death ray however supersede the to hit rule. They do not override the line of sight rule, nor do they override the cover rules, or any other rules besides to hit, and how the models are hit.

If you'll notice, you have permission to use a different style to hit than normal shooting. Drawing the line is similar to using a beam attack, it's similar to JotWW, it's similar to a number of attacks, but the mechanic that makes it different than those, it has to nominate 2 points. The nomination of those 2 points, and the line drawn between them only overrule the to hit roll. We still roll to wound normally, we still check line of sight for the weapon (if it is hull mounted), we still do everything normally, except roll to hit. Instead we use the line mechanic. The first two words of the death ray rule tell us everything about the rule in question, to fire. That means that the entire rule is how to fire the weapon. If the paragraph is supposed to explain how to fire the weapon, everything that comes before firing (steps 1 through 5 on the list I gave) must remain unchanged because we do not have an exception allowing us to ignore the other rules that come before shooting (or firing) the weapon.

Only important fact is that you are missing is that the death-ray rules never actually specify a target (well, in the conventional sense as per the 'Choose your Target' section of rules anyway). The Deathray has a different method/rule to determine that too, not just the 'To Hit' rules. Guess which rule that is normally covered under the 'Choose your Target' rules that they then ignore as a result?

Neorealist wrote:
Only important fact is that you are missing is that the death-ray rules never actually specify a target (well, in the conventional sense as per the 'Choose your Target' section of rules anyway). The Deathray has a different method/rule to determine that too, not just the 'To Hit' rules. Guess which rule that is normally covered under the 'Choose your Target' rules that they then ignore as a result?

Just because it doesn't make a to hit roll doesn't mean it doesn't have a target. Look at the other two similar line powers, JotWW and Blood lance. Both of them technically do not have a target, however the rule with both of them is that the target unit is the one that contains first model hit by the line. That means if the BA Librarian or a Rune priest are part of a unit, and the unit chooses a target unit, both of those lines must pass through that unit before any other unit. That means they specifically have a target, just an unusual way of determining the target. The death ray is the same, it does have a target unit, the same unit that the Tesla destructor shoots at (and the vehicle chooses as a target), must be under that line. There is a target, you are just allowed to target additional units.

If I am understanding you right you are saying that you have to have a target, aka (you have to have an enemy target picked out* before* you fire the death ray ....so why would they have the line at the end if death ray firing....

... If the vehicle's other weaponry is fired in the same shooting phase,
It must be fired at one of the units hit by the death ray.

.....if you are needed to target an enemy unit before you fire why would they put this line at the end of the firing info?

Also, when we consider phb rules vs. codex rules and what trumps what...I noticed in the phb, page 7, under basic versus advanced...start of the 3ed paragraph under that category......

( Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules) **its highlited black**......
......wouldn’t this fit the ruling of the death ray firing rules? On page 50 necron codex..?

Lone Dragoon wrote:Just because it doesn't make a to hit roll doesn't mean it doesn't have a target. Look at the other two similar line powers, JotWW and Blood lance. Both of them technically do not have a target, however the rule with both of them is that the target unit is the one that contains first model hit by the line. That means if the BA Librarian or a Rune priest are part of a unit, and the unit chooses a target unit, both of those lines must pass through that unit before any other unit. That means they specifically have a target, just an unusual way of determining the target. The death ray is the same, it does have a target unit, the same unit that the Tesla destructor shoots at (and the vehicle chooses as a target), must be under that line. There is a target, you are just allowed to target additional units.

I'm sorry; Blood Lance and Jaws of the World Wolf are interesting attacks which ignore various rules in their own way this is true, however they are not relevant to the way the Death Ray works.

This does bear repeating as we are still having this conversation: The Death Ray does not follow the normal rules for selecting a target. This includes 'everything' in the 'Choosing a Target' section of the shooting phase. Regardless of what you do for the Tesla Destructor (and i agree, you follow the normal procedure for that) You have to (if following the rules for the Death Ray specifically) follow the Codex-specific wording by selecting an arbitrary point on the table and going from there instead until you reach the 'Roll to Wound' step where Death-ray rules finish up and the basic ones start applying again. (It is important to note this precludes both the 'Choose a Target' and 'Roll to Hit' rules subsections.)

I really wish GW would just re-release an FAQ and clarify this.

kobalt35 wrote:If I am understanding you right you are saying that you have to have a target, aka (you have to have an enemy target picked out* before* you fire the death ray ....so why would they have the line at the end if death ray firing....

... If the vehicle's other weaponry is fired in the same shooting phase,
It must be fired at one of the units hit by the death ray.

That is confirmation that it does have a target, one of the units hit must be the vehicle's target.

.....if you are needed to target an enemy unit before you fire why would they put this line at the end of the firing info?

To avoid people saying just what is being said in this discussion, that the death ray has no target. If it truly had no target, there would be no restriction clause like the one that's there. Thus because the death ray has a target, the tesla destructor must shoot at one of the units hit meaning the unit the destructor is shooting is the true target of the vehicle.

Also, when we consider phb rules vs. codex rules and what chumps what...I noticed in the phb, page 7, under basic versus advanced...start of the 3ed paragraph under that category......

( Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules) **its highlited black**......
......wouldn’t this fit the ruling of the death ray firing rules? On page 50 necron codex..?

Wrong quote to use, as that's referring to two different parts of the big black book. Pointing out that the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence doesn't work either on this one, simply because there is nothing that eases the restriction of choosing a target and checking line of sight with the death ray. There is only permission given to treat how it handles hits. Give me one sentence that says, this weapon does not need line of sight to fire, and I'd jump to your side. Take a look at the barrage rule on page 34, there it is in black and white. They give permission to target without line of sight, and leave no ambiguity in that rule. Does the death ray have a statement allowing it to ignore line of sight rules, or ignore checking the firing arc? No it does not. If it was meant to do either of those, we would be told flat out that it could ignore LOS or that it does not need to check the arc of fire. Either way at this point we're at an impasse until the FAQ comes out.


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Neorealist wrote: The Death Ray does not follow the normal rules for selecting a target.

Agreed it does not follow the normal rules for selecting a target, however selecting a target is only one step as I showed earlier. Selecting the target for the death ray is done before shooting at the target, again what I've said bears repeating, there is no clause easing the LOS, check range, or choosing the vehicle's target. When we get a clause that does that, I'd agree with your side, but we don't have it so we have to play that since nothing is in print that says ignore those rules and use Death Rays rules instead that we still follow the rules laid out for shooting a weapon.

Lone Dragoon wrote:You ARE given permission to hit additional units, but you must first still hit the targeted unit since the Doom scythe targets a unit, not the death ray.

I agree with what you've been saying most of this thread, but I think this particular line might be wrong if I interpret your meaning correctly (which it's entirely possible that I'm not). If you are saying the Death Ray line must first hit the target unit before it hits other units, then I think you've got it wrong. As long as the line passes over a model from the target unit at some point, it's fine if it first passes through other units. If I've got your meaning wrong, then just ignore me

Lone Dragoon wrote: Agreed it does not follow the normal rules for selecting a target, however selecting a target is only one step as I showed earlier. Selecting the target for the death ray is done before shooting at the target, again what I've said bears repeating, there is no clause easing the LOS, check range, or choosing the vehicle's target. When we get a clause that does that, I'd agree with your side, but we don't have it so we have to play that since nothing is in print that says ignore those rules and use Death Rays rules instead that we still follow the rules laid out for shooting a weapon.

Well for one there is the 'Codex trumps Main book' rule, but i'm presuming you already are aware of that one.


Not a problem: Have a look at all the subsequent sub-rules under 'Choosing a Target'. (the 'Check Line of Sight' rules for example) Please notice how each and every one of them refers to a 'target unit' in some fashion? (for example: from the 'Check Line of Sight' subsection:...to at least one model in the target unit...)

The doomscythes' Death Ray does not target a specific unit. it explicitly only targets a point on the table within range. So as it currently stands until there is some errata issued or somesuch; there is no 'target unit' obtained via the rules given for the Death Ray to use in any of the sub-rules provided in the 'Shooting Phase' section after the 'Nominate a Unit to Shoot' rules and before 'Roll to Wound' ones.

Has anyone tried doing this "ignore LOS" thing in a tourney yet? if so, what happened?

Neorealist wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote: Agreed it does not follow the normal rules for selecting a target, however selecting a target is only one step as I showed earlier. Selecting the target for the death ray is done before shooting at the target, again what I've said bears repeating, there is no clause easing the LOS, check range, or choosing the vehicle's target. When we get a clause that does that, I'd agree with your side, but we don't have it so we have to play that since nothing is in print that says ignore those rules and use Death Rays rules instead that we still follow the rules laid out for shooting a weapon.

Well for one there is the 'Codex trumps Main book' rule, but i'm presuming you already are aware of that one.


Not a problem: Have a look at all the subsequent sub-rules under 'Choosing a Target'. (the 'Check Line of Sight' rules for example) Please notice how each and every one of them refers to a 'target unit' in some fashion? (for example: from the 'Check Line of Sight' subsection:...to at least one model in the target unit...)

The doomscythes' Death Ray does not target a specific unit. it explicitly only targets a point on the table within range. So as it currently stands until there is some errata issued or somesuch; there is no 'target unit' obtained via the rules given for the Death Ray to use in any of the sub-rules provided in the 'Shooting Phase' section after the 'Nominate a Unit to Shoot' rules and before 'Roll to Wound' ones.

ya i agree with this observation as well from above ....^^^..the 'Codex trumps Main book' rule....

Its one thing to read the rule, its another to understand the rule. ..i just hope this isnt a (i dont want to be wrong so ill fight for my answer)...things going on here..

I would assume (tryign to use common sense here, rather than be a rule lawyer) that the Death Ray works in a similar fashion to the inferno cannon.

You pick a point within a certain distance, in LOS. You then pick a second point with x inches of the first one. Draw a line between the 2 points.

It's a shame that the codex doesn't list the guns as Hull or turret mounted int he Wargear or weapon profile. The Tesla is listed as a turret, but only in the fluff section.

and if 6th ed has proved anything so far it's that Fluff =/= Rules

Praxiss wrote:You pick a point within a certain distance, in LOS. You then pick a second point with x inches of the first one. Draw a line between the 2 points.

It's a shame that the codex doesn't list the guns as Hull or turret mounted int he Wargear or weapon profile. The Tesla is listed as a turret, but only in the fluff section.

and if 6th ed has proved anything so far it's that Fluff =/= Rules

Almost right: except the death-ray tells you to pick a point in range of the weapon and doesn't mention anything about LOS in either the necron codex, the FAQ, or any other official source. It's a bit of a moot point really as you cannot wound something unless you have LOS to it which would make shooting something with the deathray out of LOS rather pointless anyway, but there you have it.

And yes, it is a pity it doesn't indicate in the rules-text what sort of weapon-mount it is. It looks like an underslung gun of some sort hanging from the bottom of the doomscythes' hull, but there really isn't definitive evidence that i can see from looking at it to indicate wether or not it's intended to swivel or is a fixed mount. (Attaching the gun to the model involves locking it into place with tabs that you have to push into slots on the base for what it's worth.)

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2390159a_99120110023_Doomscythe06_445x319.jpg

Lone Dragoon wrote:

kobalt35 wrote:If I am understanding you right you are saying that you have to have a target, aka (you have to have an enemy target picked out* before* you fire the death ray ....so why would they have the line at the end if death ray firing....

... If the vehicle's other weaponry is fired in the same shooting phase,
It must be fired at one of the units hit by the death ray.

That is confirmation that it does have a target, one of the units hit must be the vehicle's target.

.....if you are needed to target an enemy unit before you fire why would they put this line at the end of the firing info?

To avoid people saying just what is being said in this discussion, that the death ray has no target. If it truly had no target, there would be no restriction clause like the one that's there. Thus because the death ray has a target, the tesla destructor must shoot at one of the units hit meaning the unit the destructor is shooting is the true target of the vehicle.

Also, when we consider phb rules vs. codex rules and what chumps what...I noticed in the phb, page 7, under basic versus advanced...start of the 3ed paragraph under that category......

( Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules) **its highlited black**......
......wouldn’t this fit the ruling of the death ray firing rules? On page 50 necron codex..?

Wrong quote to use, as that's referring to two different parts of the big black book. Pointing out that the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence doesn't work either on this one, simply because there is nothing that eases the restriction of choosing a target and checking line of sight with the death ray. There is only permission given to treat how it handles hits. Give me one sentence that says, this weapon does not need line of sight to fire, and I'd jump to your side. Take a look at the barrage rule on page 34, there it is in black and white. They give permission to target without line of sight, and leave no ambiguity in that rule. Does the death ray have a statement allowing it to ignore line of sight rules, or ignore checking the firing arc? No it does not. If it was meant to do either of those, we would be told flat out that it could ignore LOS or that it does not need to check the arc of fire. Either way at this point we're at an impasse until the FAQ comes out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Neorealist wrote: The Death Ray does not follow the normal rules for selecting a target.

Agreed it does not follow the normal rules for selecting a target, however selecting a target is only one step as I showed earlier. Selecting the target for the death ray is done before shooting at the target, again what I've said bears repeating, there is no clause easing the LOS, check range, or choosing the vehicle's target. When we get a clause that does that, I'd agree with your side, but we don't have it so we have to play that since nothing is in print that says ignore those rules and use Death Rays rules instead that we still follow the rules laid out for shooting a weapon.

You are inferring a lot of intent instead of reading the actual rules in this thread, Lone.

1) JotWW has an explicit ruling that says the first model hit determines the target unit. Blood lance is in a simiular category, though it only places a restriction on who the librarian's unit can legally charge. This is not in the Necron FAQ and therefore foes not apply.

2) If you were correct, and the first unit hit by the death ray is the "target unit," There would be NO NEED for the firing restriction clause on the tesla destructor. It would already be built into the rules based on the usual shooting restrictions (only one target unit). This actually reinforces the argument that the death ray never, ever selects a target.

3) You're cherry-picking the codex vs BRB debate hugely. There are specific, codex rules that state how to fire the death ray, that explicitly contradict the normal rules. Saying "there's nothing in there that says it doesn't still have to pick a target" is incredibly disingenuous.

I'm at the point where I'm assuming that you're clinging to this because you have a Necron opponent who fields Doom Scythes, and you don't like him ripping through your units with the death ray. Your RAW argument doesn't stand on merit, at all.

Well, I'm a necron player, and I sure as hell don't think the death ray should be able to hit both ground and air targets.
Besides, the blood lance and the JoTWW have the same problems, and as such should not be used as a worthy example.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Well, I'm a necron player, and I sure as hell don't think the death ray should be able to hit both ground and air targets.
Besides, the blood lance and the JoTWW have the same problems, and as such should not be used as a worthy example.

What you think is irrelevant. For what it's worth I expect them to errata either the Hard to Hit rules or line powers in general to miss flyers unless the firing unit has skyfire, but until they do they're able to hit both.

Most of this has been an irrelevant argument. I would like to point out a few things……

1. ‘Death Ray’ line is 1mm in width as per Necron faq (it must be assumed that width refers to the X and Y axis of the beams cross section since no clarification is given)

2. The BRB states on Pg. 80 that a fliers base is effectively ignored except for when the flyer is being assaulted & for the purposes of embarking/disembarking units.

3. The ‘Death Ray’ entry in Codex Necrons states……

“To fire the death ray, nominate a point ON the battlefield anywhere within the weapon’s range, then nominate a second point within 3d6” of the first. Then draw a straight line between the two points. Every unit (friendly or enemy) UNDERNEATH the line suffers a number of hits equal to…. “ (Bold emphasis mine)

In summary, the line is between two points ON the battle field (not suspended ABOVE the battle field) which works fine against everything……. Except for fliers and interestingly enough skimmers as both of the relevant unit type entries detail how to treat their flying bases. Both saying they are ignored for all purposes except assaults/charges, disembarking/embarking for fliers, and ramming for skimmers (Pg. 83)

Jpacka wrote:Most of this has been an irrelevant argument. I would like to point out a few things……

1. ‘Death Ray’ line is 1mm in width as per Necron faq (it must be assumed that width refers to the X and Y axis of the beams cross section since no clarification is given)

2. The BRB states on Pg. 80 that a fliers base is effectively ignored except for when the flyer is being assaulted & for the purposes of embarking/disembarking units.

3. The ‘Death Ray’ entry in Codex Necrons states……

“To fire the death ray, nominate a point ON the battlefield anywhere within the weapon’s range, then nominate a second point within 3d6” of the first. Then draw a straight line between the two points. Every unit (friendly or enemy) UNDERNEATH the line suffers a number of hits equal to…. “ (Bold emphasis mine)

In summary, the line is between two points ON the battle field (not suspended ABOVE the battle field) which works fine against everything……. Except for fliers and interestingly enough skimmers as both of the relevant unit type entries detail how to treat their flying bases. Both saying they are ignored for all purposes except assaults/charges, disembarking/embarking for fliers, and ramming for skimmers (Pg. 83)

hehe, quality. The problem with your reasoning above is that it's equally impossible for a non-flying-based model to be 'underneath' a horizontal line drawn directly on the surface of the board as it is for a skimmer. I think you'd be better off going with the interpretation that doesn't completely invalidate the weapon altogether, no? That and drawing the line 6 inches above the board still qualifies as 'on' it (as in, within the dimensions constrained by the table edges), otherwise aren't your skimmers and fliers already counted as 'off' the board and therefore automatically destroyed?

" The problem with your reasoning above is that it's equally impossible for a non-flying-based model to be 'underneath' a horizontal line drawn directly on the surface of the board "

It is not my reasoning, it is RAW. It is clearly stated that it is ON the battlefield not ABOVE (for a clear distinction look into the placement of blast templates and you will see it references placing the template ABOVE the model).

Beyond that I would argue that the 'Death Ray' can hit models ON the battlefield due to the fact that the beam is capable of going over a portion of the model as it has 1mm cross section and Models (base included) on the battlefield are thus atleast partially below the uppermost portion of the beam allowing the model to be hit. This works fine except for when a base is not counted as part of the model such as in the case of skimmers and fliers, except for the previously mentioned exceptions.

As to your next point....

There is a rather notable and well published Ph.D. by the name of Suess who may be able to give you some insight into the different spacial terminology used in the english language. I would recommend "Green eggs and ham" as a starting point. (point of note: table edges give no deffinition to the Z axis).

Would you argue that you can place an objective floating in the air 8" above the battefield and have remained within the confines of the BRB stating you have to place it "on" the battlefield?

And finally.....

I would think it rather obvious that a flier is not "on" the table in a literal sense but in play. Would one say that a 747 is flying "on" my house as it passes overhead?
Please reference the ongoing reserves section and you will see that not being "on" the table does not destroy anything. Indeed if it did I should think all reserves would be destroyed.

Jpacka wrote:Most of this has been an irrelevant argument. I would like to point out a few things……

1. ‘Death Ray’ line is 1mm in width as per Necron faq (it must be assumed that width refers to the X and Y axis of the beams cross section since no clarification is given)

2. The BRB states on Pg. 80 that a fliers base is effectively ignored except for when the flyer is being assaulted & for the purposes of embarking/disembarking units.

3. The ‘Death Ray’ entry in Codex Necrons states……

“To fire the death ray, nominate a point ON the battlefield anywhere within the weapon’s range, then nominate a second point within 3d6” of the first. Then draw a straight line between the two points. Every unit (friendly or enemy) UNDERNEATH the line suffers a number of hits equal to…. “ (Bold emphasis mine)

In summary, the line is between two points ON the battle field (not suspended ABOVE the battle field) which works fine against everything……. Except for fliers and interestingly enough skimmers as both of the relevant unit type entries detail how to treat their flying bases. Both saying they are ignored for all purposes except assaults/charges, disembarking/embarking for fliers, and ramming for skimmers (Pg. 83)

I actually laughed out loud reading this.

The line's on the battlefield. Bases rest on top of the battlefield, and are therefore not UNDER the line. So I guess the death ray can't ever hit anything.