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I propose we make an accurate one......I can do up the graphic............what we need is people who are knowledgeable on different armies fluff

they have the different marine armies listed......why shouldnt seperate factions of the other armies be listed........they shouldnt have been done up as a blanket answer for all of them

what we need is someone for

Orks
Eldar
Dark Eldar
Necrons
Chaos
Tau
Imperial Guard
Space Marines

I'll have a bash at Eldar and post it tomorrow

Iranna.

Orks:

No clan: never suffers desperate allies debuffs
(Flashgit special character) Bad moonz: Normal
(Snikrot or looted tanks) Blood axes: all imperial forces are battle brothers
(Snikrot or lots of shoota boyz) Death skullz: Can never be more than allies of convenience
(Meganob IC) Goffs: Can never be allied with imperium
Dont remember the others very well. Probably normal.

Tau: Farsight Enclave can never be allied with Orks, Dark Eldar, or Imperial forces. Battle Brothers with Necrons.

chris from what I remember reading the other ork clans dont trust the blood axes because they will trade with the Imperium

I wouldnt think its all Imperium for blood axes maybe just IG units

@Lakota isn't a problem because orks can't allie with orks. Perhaps a stipulation stating that both detachments if over 2k have to be blood axes.

if i remeber right from when I did have the codex you could have more than one clan in an army......they all though didnt trust the Blood Axes due to the fact they would trade with the Imperium

if you had enough stuff to make 2 ork armies and one was a Deathskulls army and the other a blood Axes it would be no different than if I teamed up a Space Wolves with a Dark Angels......yes they will fight together but they truly have no trust for each other


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what are the different Tau Enclaves

There's no Clans anymore. Just fluff clans.

Farsight Enclave, Sa'Cea sept, Tau Sept.

Here's the "improved" Eldar matrix:

(BB=Battle Brothers, AoC=Allies of Convenience, DA=Desperate Allies, CtA=Come the Apocalypse)

Black Templars - CtA (BTs hate witches, I don't understand why they are Allies of Convenience with Eldar)
Blood Angels - DA (After reading about every encounter with the Eldar in the BA codex, it's clear that they harbour a hatred for them - "The Semmel Betrayel")
Chaos Daemons - CtA
Chaos Space Marines - CtA
Dark Angels - AoC (To represent the DA caring more about hunting the Fallen rather than fighting the Xenos).
Dark Eldar - BB (I honestly think this is definately warranted; they are the same species after all.)
Grey Knights - AoC
Imperial Guard - AoC
Necrons - CtA
Orks - DA (This is to represent the Eldar manipulating Orks into doing their bidding, eg. Eldrad and Armageddon.)
Sisters of Battle - CtA (Again, like the Black Templars, the SoB hate witches so I figured that they would abhorr the Eldar.)
Space Marines - AoC
Space Wolves - AoC
Tau - BB (Again, I feel this is warranted as the Eldar see the Tau as one of the more amicable galactic powers, one easily bent to their will.)
Tyranids - DA (This is to represent extremely powerful Farseers taking control of Genestealer Cults, Hive Fleet Remnants or Lesser Tyranid creatures)

Hope people find this one better,

Iranna.

maybe I am not clear as to my thinking...........I feel like if we are doing a fluff friendly one then it should break down the different clans or sects withing an army type in order to greatly be more accurate as to who would fight together or not

dont got my Eldar Codex in front of me but if I rem,ember correctly Biel Tan absolutly hates the imperium

LakotaWolf wrote:maybe I am not clear as to my thinking...........I feel like if we are doing a fluff friendly one then it should break down the different clans or sects withing an army type in order to greatly be more accurate as to who would fight together or not

dont got my Eldar Codex in front of me but if I rem,ember correctly Biel Tan absolutly hates the imperium

Ahh I see, you wanted individualised craftworlds? Sure, I'll adjust it later.

Biel-tan don't hate the Imperium, they hate the Orks. However, no Eldar is above using the "lesser" races to o their bidding, not even Biel-tan.

Iranna.

Orks: Blood Axes ally with Imperial Guard

Space Wolves and Dark Angels: allies of convenience at best...

Ill take a crack at the various eldar factions. The 5 major craftworlds are almost the same as Iranna mentioned above, just a few changes for each.

Biel-Tan: Change orks to CtA, and the IG to da. They hate both for settling the maiden worlds, the former is beyond reason and blindly conquests. The latter is defending what they consider rightfully theirs.

Saim-Hain: About the same, maybe knock a AoC of the IG and Grey Knights to desperate.

Ulthwe: The same, except maybe allied with even the BT or SOB under Desperate alliances. The Coven of Isha is a pact Eldrad formed with the imperium where they both turn aside their differences for mutual aid.

Alaitoc: Same except Desperate with Space Wolves, after the incident on Mynemerra they are less than thrilled to offer help.

Iyanden: Same, except CtA with the bugs. So few in number, they are more than willing to accept help anywhere they can get it.

I would go out to say that all of the Eldar would never ally with the Tyranids. Tyranids have destroyed the craftworld of Malan'tai and almost destroyed Iyanden. Something so serious would not just be overlooked. The bugs are far too dangerous to be left alive, even manipulated.

i got to disagree with DE being battle brothers of any of the eldar factions.........like the codex said they are a reminder of the fall.....and are a violent reminder of the depth of which eldar society plummeted


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what about the different factions of Tau.........they have them willing to team up with just about anybody.....at the same time battle brother of the DA and Eldar......if they would team up with Chaos why would DA or Eldar trust them


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finally necrons and gray Knights are AOC......someone want to explain that

Imperial Guard:

All Battle Brothers are fine, save for Black Templars should be AoC if the army includes any abhumans or Psykers.

GK should be battle brothers if the warlord is an Inquisitor.

Chaos Space Marines and Daemons belong as CtA if the army is Cadian, Mordian, or Tanith

Orks should be CtA if the army is Steel Legion, or Praetorian

I believe Eldar, Orks, and Tau belong as desperate allies.

Some may have qualms with this last suggestion, but mind that standard doctrine is to treat all Xenos with suspicions of hostility until proven otherwise, even the seemingly innocuous Tau (As seen in the Ciaphas Cain novel where they garrison a Tau-occupied world). Space marines work more independent, and likely wouldn't abide by these same doctines, but for guard, the rule "One Eye Open" seems fitting when dealing with Xenos.

Fluffy DA ally matrix IMHO:

LakotaWolf wrote:i got to disagree with DE being battle brothers of any of the eldar factions.........like the codex said they are a reminder of the fall.....and are a violent reminder of the depth of which eldar society plummeted


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what about the different factions of Tau.........they have them willing to team up with just about anybody.....at the same time battle brother of the DA and Eldar......if they would team up with Chaos why would DA or Eldar trust them


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finally necrons and gray Knights are AOC......someone want to explain that

Yes, the dark eldar are reminders of the fall, and the craftworld eldar never want to become such monsters. That being said, there are many other reasons that they could overlook this difference to fight as one army.

1. Mon-keigh is still mon-keigh. Both Eldar factions are arrogant elitists who think themselves superior to everybody, and can easily agree to kill anybody else over killing each other.

2. The Eldar survive by manipulating fate in their favor, the Dark Eldar survive by causing pain, sorrow and destruction. These two are not mutually exclusive, and can work together quite well. Say the eldar need to wipe out a planet or army, but they do not want to risk lives in the process. The ask the dark eldar to help, allowing them to kill and pillage as they please. The eldar are protected(and possibly the blame goes to the Dark Eldar) while the dark eldar get more slaves, cause more pain etc.

3. Harlequins have been working on the relationship between the craftworlds and the dark city. Free to travel between the two and allying with both, harlequins serve as mediators between the factions and desire to preserve the Eldar race as a whole, be it good or evil. Also, the Eldar need more people, and being the same species, they can make babies.

4. Higher eschalons of the dark eldar respect the eldar...somewhat. Khaine is still held in high regard by the dark eldar, and many of the archons agree that the ones who died in the fall were the lucky ones. A dark eldar warrior fighting alongside the Avatar would be just as inspired as an aspect warrior, and would likely kill for the honor.

The only thing that is not ok with Battle Brothers is Incubi fighting with the Craftworld(or vice versa). They wear broken soulstones and kill aspect warriors as a right of passage. That is crossing the line.


As far as Necrons and GK, that has Mat Ward written all over it. In case you are not satisfied with one Ward army, you can get an allied detatchment of another. Draigowings and scythe spam together as one giant piece of

I'm not certain Saim-Hann would be battle brothers with anything except other craftworlds and corsairs, and other craftworlds is pushing it.
They're just not a friend-making bunch. Sure, lots of AoC, but no real BB outside of other semi-rogue Eldar elements. (Saim-Hann keep grudges too much to forgive the killing of their aspect warriors, read Incubi and DE covens)

I still, as i alway have, feel that with the vastness of the 40k galaxy (how they keep a positive population increase always baffles me) that any army can figure out a way to ally with pretty much anything, even the really out of the box ones.

DE
-figure out a way to force any army to fight for them, for example, capture some nids and just release them onto the battle field with some sort of heimy mind control collar

CHAOS
-twisted enemy army by chaos, they (whoever they are) fell to corruption

NID
-go all infested terran on them with brain bugs and organic growths controlling their bodies

ect, ect. the thing is that this wouldnt work both ways with some armies. I could never see GK allying with deamons for example, so i feel that they should have made a more in depth rule set where the nids can take GK as allies for example (again, mind control, GK succombing to hive influence) but the GK cant take nids as allies since, well, they hate them.

It seems to me that the evil forces (and tau) could pretty much figure out a fluffy way to take any ally whereas the imperium of man would have a much more difficult time justifying an alliance with the evil races (though i could see marines accepting an uneasy alliance with an evil race to stop an even more evil race). GW has always been about crafting your own fluff and its really not that hard to invent fluff on your own that does make enough sense to at least take desperate allies with pretty much everyone.

I think people are overthinking the whole Tyranids business. The simple solution is to treat any army which allies with Tyranids as a "Tyranid Cult", "Genestealer Cult", or "Infested Army". I don't think the Tyranids would want to willingly ally any with any non-loyal forces for any reason, which means any outside forces they do ally with are going to be loyal to the Tyranids, either by choice or by infestation.

Could always introduce a special rule for Tyranids called Infested.

INFESTED
Tyranids may take Eldar, Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard, Orks, Space Marines, or Tau as allies (and vice versa). If you do, however, the non-Tyranid force must be modeled to be infested and will count as Tyranids for the purposes of rules which specifically target Tyranids.


In concerns to other armies, I think Chaos Space Marines and Imperial Guard should count as Battle Brothers, allowing for CSM units to lead IG units in order to allow players to play Renegades or Lost and the Damned properly.

EDIT: Also, if somebody can get me those symbols I can easily make a much better Allies chart than the one GW has provided.

Eldar genestealer cults in general are very rare, obscure, and slow compared to human (or other) cults. It's possible with Dark Eldar, but a World Spirit or Infinity Circuit would detect the anomalous individual(s) long before they spread out of control. It should also be noted that Eldar genetics makes them resistant to genestealers, leading to increased number of generations required in a race that already reproduce more seldom than humans by nature.

Genestealer cults are noted as being fully possible with *any* biological life form, however, though Space Marines are sterile if memory serves so they make really bad targets.

This from a quick search on the nets, though my initial reaction would be "but aren't Eldar immune" but that would be manipulative influences (specifically not pure trickery, of course), aka "corruption".

The allies matrix isnt based on whether the two armies 'like' each other. It is based on how they work effectively as a team, (dark eldar and eldar fight similarly and even speak the same language so they are battle brothers)

What's the point in going out of your way for a "fluff accurate" allies matrix when there's so much conflicting fluff about who will team up with who?

Like it or not, recent codices are just as valid fluff-wise as anything else in the 40k universe.

Ok, so I've seen a few attempts at a Fluff Accurate Allies Matrix...but they kinda fall short in my own opinion. I took a complicated approach, I separated the galaxy into four groups...The Forces of the Imperium, The Forces of Chaos, Benevolent Xenos, and Malevolent Xenos. From that point I further separated them down into groups within each army and where their allegiances lie...and how each individual group viewed the internal forces and each army of each group...

Example - Dark Angels are Xenophobic to their core...they would only work with the Eldar or Tau of the most dire circumstances...the other alien races would be right out of the question...they also have a very bad relationship with the Inquisition and management in general...they also have a legendary rivalry with the Space Wolves (of which...situation permitting...would have champions of theirs fight if they ever meet on the battlefield...regardless if they meet as friends or foes)

Example - Kroot are mercenaries, their Shapers make the decisions for their clans more or less, they personally have no interest in any other race outside their own...besides eating purposes...that aside they are very much like Orks in their demeanour, but this isn't represented by the Tau army envelope...

My point is that I would like people to look at this spreadsheet that I'm making, and I'd like some comments, challenges, and revisions...I'm only one person and I only really know about humanity...I'd greatly appreciate some input

Here's a public copy of the document below...the Master will update to it as I go along...If you have corrections to my allies chart I would love for you to send me your modifications and fluff reasons as to why for corrections...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yvk2gkikxmu5tq7/Allies%20Matrix%20Public%20Copy.ods

The whole system of allies of different races is rubbish. The Dark Elder with Chaos, Tau and Eldar with humans, that's it.

Chaos should be BB with IG. Traitor guard are a huge part of the Chaos forces and they differ not signifigantly from regular IG.

If eldar are going to have any allies, it is going to include DE, their kin.

I disagree...most of the races are at least moderately flexible when it comes to adversity...such as the Eldar lack the raw strength to actually commit to a ground war...so they'd be open to working with another race that isn't straight up evil...like the Tau...or maybe some of the less blood thirsty/feral space marine chapters...they would most likely only reach out to fight against Chaos(Slannesh in specific), the Necrons, or the Tyranid...this would only be in the interests of mutual safety in the wake of such a foe...and also the Eldar would still be watching their own backs...as they barely trust their own kin the Dark Eldar...so...as it were with outside races...the best that could be done would have to be Allies of Convience...

But furthermore about allies...it certainly mixes up the gameplay and makes it much more unpredictable and fun...but anyone who doesn't like allies is most likely because they don't have any or shouldn't have any (example...necrons and grey knights)


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Chaos should be BB with IG. Traitor guard are a huge part of the Chaos forces and they differ not signifigantly from regular IG.

Actually...I did make the distinction of "Chaos Renegades" ...as that's what they are generally called...I also made the point of bringing in the Genestealer cult for a similar reason...so the Tyranid could have crappy ground forces too ...the concept would be...the Imperial Guard...minus all vehicles...just that they'd be like Infected Terrans in Starcraft mostly...minus the being a walking bomb part...

If eldar are going to have any allies, it is going to include DE, their kin.

I don't really know where to start for most of the Xenos...that's why I'm looking for opinions and input...so...please make some revisions and send it on back

Ok this is a simple one

Dark angels: allies of convenience, all imperial
Desperate allies: eldar, tau
Come the apocalypse: everyone else.

Dark angels dont do allies very well, they despise aliens and abhumans, plus the whole "ooo fallen, bye bye" thing

I love orks and have been very into them for a couple years now, i saw chris's posts and i disagree with him.

Looking at the current and general codex view putting clans aside, many orks will work for guns/trade, and as such, can be allies of convenience for many races, perhaps the only battle brothers they could ever have is if they joined up with a IG planet as working for the general under promise to go to war. This is extremely rare, and means the general farmed the orks.

i would say

All space marines: Apocalypse
Imperial Guard: Allies of convenience/battle brothers depending on your fluff.
Eldar/Dark Eldar: Allies of convenience
Nids: Nom nom?
Chaos: Apocalypse
Deamons: Krump'em
SOB: They hate us..
Tau: Hahaha hate... maybe allies of convenience

Templars:

Battle-brothers:

Sisters of Battle - Burn the Heretic!
Space Marines - The Sons of Dorn
Blood Angels - Noble warriors of the Imperium, the Scions of Sanguinius

Allies of Convenience:
Imperial Guard- They are the Emperor's people, but they should stay out of our way
Dark Angels - Remember the Damocles Gulph Crusade!
Space Wolves - Mutants, all of them!
Grey Knights - Keep the Inquisition at arm's length

Desperate Allies:
Eldar - Psyker scum

Come the Apocalypse:
Necrons - Helbrecht wants his hand back!
Chaos Space Marines - ARTPARGAWPGRWAPWFAWPFKILLKILLKILL!!!
Chaos Daemons - see above
Dark Eldar - Kill the Xeno scum!
Tau - Nimbosa belongs to the Emperor now!
Orks - lolwut?
Tyranids - OMNOMNOM

At AlmightyWalrus

Sure...but anything about how the Templars feel about the Inquisition...as in the administrative level mostly...and how about the Grey Knights individually...I'm guessing they'd be viewed as abominations... Also what about the Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Salamanders (I'd think the charcoal skin wouldn't make them too popular), Raven Guard, and the White Scars...

I also added a separate stipulation to the Templars... "The Black Templars have zero tolerance for psykers, to represent this any of their allies may not use them." I thought it appropriate considering the Templars disposition...the Sisters however do not dare chance dominion over the other Space Marine chapters...there is a functional understanding between the two...mostly a respectful relationship with occassional exchanges of gunfire...

At cormadepanda

Since your post I decided to splinter the Orks into their separate primary 6 clans...the Malevolent Xenos page is rather short...my secondary reason is that some short research turned up that there's a big fissure in Ork-dom...that both the Blood Axes and the Deathskulls aren't exactly in the best standing with their own race...Blood Axes for being less Orky and more Humany...and the Deathskulls for being dirty thieves...so aside from their internal affairs issue...do these orks view anyone else differently aside from the Blood Axes dealings with the Imperium as mercenaries...