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Seems I can't go a day without reading a random post with something like "when little Timmy's mom buys him a new Tactical squad".

What's the beef with Little Timmy? Are people essentially making fun of kids who like the same game they (adults) do? Is it that much of an elitist mindset that we can make fun of a kid who gets 40k stuff from his parents?

All that said, I'd like to say that the internet should change it to "Big Timmy", because I have never actually played 40k against anyone under 19 or so and a high number of the people in my area who have TONS of 40k products bought by their parents are definitely old enough to have a family of their own...

Just a thought that came into my mind when looking on the GW website. There's a LOT of kids in GW stores which I have never encountered myself (not that I have a problem with any of you dakka users who are younger than me!). Also, if you are actually not a 'kid' and reading this, don't take it as a personal insult if your parents really do buy you 40k stuff. Lucky dogs..

-Brom

There's a belief that little Timmy (or more precisely little Timmy's parents) are driving the cost of the (GW) hobby up because they're are resistant to high prices leading to a willingness to pay pricing strategy by GW.

Ah, I see. Interesting indeed.

I think the 'Little Timmy' meme really came into focus when a comment was attributed to Jervis Johnson that books were being edited with the idea of a "Little Timmy" in mind. Some of it was simple stuff like adding a weapon chart, which is really a great idea for anyone new to the setting and not a 'dumbing down for kids'.

I think ti's become a shorthand expression for any game design/packaging/modeling decision that is perceived as being made for the high-churn/quick-turnover younger players that are more likely to buy a bunch of models at MSRP based on coolness over combat effectiveness, and not decisions made with the older, more experienced, and likely more frugal "ROI minded' players such as much of of Dakka in mind.

I don't think I've ever seen a little Timmy (with or without lil' Timmy's mom), but maybe their are more prevalent in the UK?

All the young(er) people I encounter who started on the GW path are either little brothers/friends of existing gamers.

Little Timmy is entirely mythical, because everything that has been, and will ever be, sold has been purchased by tournament players.

My name is Timmy, and and the older I get, the more I wish I could be little again.

I don't have problem with younger kids enjoying the game. Heck half of us were once that little kid with his mom. My brothers 12, buys his models with his own money he earns (except my parents do by him something from GW on Christmas) and is honestly a pretty good player. Sure I have to paint the models for him, but who didn't have trouble painting in the start. As long as they follow the rules of the game and act mature when playing I could care less about how old they are.

How on earth can a 12 year old in 2012 earn enough money to collect GW stuff? I'm guessing a paper round of about half a city which combines sale of low-class narcotics at the same time?

When working as a staffer (some years ago now) I attended yearly meetings where the training guys actually used the phrase 'little Timmy' in terms of how you should try and sell stuff to parents and their kids. There is no secret at all that that is the target market, and the model range, rules, prices and everything else have been indicative of that for at least a decade now.

Isn't it obvious. This "little Timmy" must be found. And then, he shall die, solves all your problems.

Nice discussion, guys, thanks.

I just didn't really understand the whole Little Timmy thing, and it was sort of like the whole "1999pt army lists". Just a litlte abstract until I got more info :p

Pacific wrote:How on earth can a 12 year old in 2012 earn enough money to collect GW stuff? I'm guessing a paper round of about half a city which combines sale of low-class narcotics at the same time?

Christmas/Birthday money? That was always a good source of cash when I was little. Kids are also more likely to go for the short-term fix and get things like the $10 box of 3 Space Marines with their pocket money even though it'd make more sense to save up for a Tactical Squad (Although, technically, isn't 3/$10 cheaper per model than 10/$37.50... No special weapons or extras, though...).

More mature players are more focused on building to a goal (generally: adults can still pick up some models they might want to use someday on a whim, of course) and are more likely to be picky about the rules as the gaming time is likely precious to us. If the mythical Little Timmy buys stuff and never plays, he's still a customer, and possibly a happy one.

(Consider gyms: the staff appreciates the cool men and women who come in, work out, don't mess around, and take care of the place. Management really likes the customers who make a resolution to exercise every day, go for a month, then tapper off to three times a week... twice a week... Tomorrow, honest! Customers paying a monthly fee that don't show up also don't put wear and tear on equipment, etc. GW may tap into a similar theory.)

BrookM wrote:Isn't it obvious. This "little Timmy" must be found. And then, he shall die, solves all your problems.

I think he's trapped down a well.

Riquende wrote:

BrookM wrote:Isn't it obvious. This "little Timmy" must be found. And then, he shall die, solves all your problems.

I think he's trapped down a well.

Ah, get me a dog and a garden hose, looks like this problem is close to solved.

I think it also ties into an old archtype from Magic in the 90's: a younger (usually) player that focuses more on playing "big" or "cool" creatures at the expense of building effective decks.

marielle wrote:Little Timmy is entirely mythical, because everything that has been, and will ever be, sold has been purchased by tournament players.

Even Pyrovores?

Personally, I like younger players. They argue with me less and I can convince them to charge a 3rd ed. Nightbringer(I was spectating)

If more people played what was cool over what was smart, it might be a slightly friendlier gaming environment.

Flashman wrote:There's a belief that little Timmy (or more precisely little Timmy's parents) are driving the cost of the (GW) hobby up because they're are resistant to high prices leading to a willingness to pay pricing strategy by GW.

It's not just a belief. It's been GW stated policy for many years. There was a memo from GW US that got leaked back in the late '90s entitled "kids, kids, kids" that outlined how GW was concentrating on the kiddie market rather than their older veteran players. I'll have to dig around and find the text of it.

As for me, I simply refuse to deal with "little timmy". I have very little patinece with kids and pretty much refuse to play with anyone younger than late teens or so.

TR

Flashman wrote:As for me, I simply refuse to deal with "little timmy". I have very little patinece with kids and pretty much refuse to play with anyone younger than late teens or so.

I think refusing to play them is the wrong answer. These 'kids' aren't going to learn to play properly or learn what it means to be a good model wargaming if they don't get to play the "older" crowd. Don't go easy on them, let them learn from their mistakes, but let them play. Anything that brings more players to the hobby is always a good thing. The kids who are little terds, tend to grow up and continue to be terds until they grow into the fat, poorly goatee'd, big terds.

I've met plenty of late teens and even late adults who I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy ...

Eh, I respect TR's point. I'm a busy adult. I don't have the time or energy to spend an evening trying to mold kids into good gamers.

I'd rather play a video game by myself if it comes to that.

Pacific wrote:How on earth can a 12 year old in 2012 earn enough money to collect GW stuff? I'm guessing a paper round of about half a city which combines sale of low-class narcotics at the same time?

When working as a staffer (some years ago now) I attended yearly meetings where the training guys actually used the phrase 'little Timmy' in terms of how you should try and sell stuff to parents and their kids. There is no secret at all that that is the target market, and the model range, rules, prices and everything else have been indicative of that for at least a decade now.

While GWs prices have increased beyond inflation, it's really no different than it was 10-15 years ago for kids. A lot of older gamers were old enough to have a full time job then, but the gamers in the 25 year range were kids still. I know for me GW was always pricey even with the small model count in 2nd edition. I could never afford some of the stuff I wanted, like a Hormagaunt squad when they were all metal. My Tyranid troops consisted of the genestealers I scrounged from Space Hulk and Space Crusade, since it cost me so much to get the bigger things like a Screamer Killer, Lictor and a Hive Tyrant.

So kids these days aren't really worse off than kids were back then, at least in Australia.

xole wrote:

marielle wrote:Little Timmy is entirely mythical, because everything that has been, and will ever be, sold has been purchased by tournament players.

Even Pyrovores?

Personally, I like younger players. They argue with me less and I can convince them to charge a 3rd ed. Nightbringer(I was spectating)

If more people played what was cool over what was smart, it might be a slightly friendlier gaming environment.

You'll find the Pyrovores on the bottom tables

I agree with you about younger players because they are generally excited about the game.

About five years ago my nephew Zach got into 40K at the age of 13ish, Apocolypse came out during this time. I actively discouraged him from starting up, being concerned about the start up costs of a new 40k army and ruleset, but he bought all of his own stuff with chore money, birthday, and holiday money. He won a few summertime tournaments, so his army was about 2000 points in size. 1000 Sons. Him and his friends used to build the stuff, I did sometimes too, and a guy I know used to paint his stuff. When he got out of 40k about 2 years later I think he ebay'd everything off for about $400-600.

He was very excited about the game when he played it. He had a number of friends with smaller armies. He sold his parents that he from it mathematics, statistics, (and I assume tactics).

Zach's one Little Timmy who ended up affiable, responsible, and from what I hear from my local crowd a pleasure to play against. They ain't all bad.

-Loki- wrote:

Pacific wrote:How on earth can a 12 year old in 2012 earn enough money to collect GW stuff? I'm guessing a paper round of about half a city which combines sale of low-class narcotics at the same time?

When working as a staffer (some years ago now) I attended yearly meetings where the training guys actually used the phrase 'little Timmy' in terms of how you should try and sell stuff to parents and their kids. There is no secret at all that that is the target market, and the model range, rules, prices and everything else have been indicative of that for at least a decade now.

While GWs prices have increased beyond inflation, it's really no different than it was 10-15 years ago for kids. A lot of older gamers were old enough to have a full time job then, but the gamers in the 25 year range were kids still. I know for me GW was always pricey even with the small model count in 2nd edition. I could never afford some of the stuff I wanted, like a Hormagaunt squad when they were all metal. My Tyranid troops consisted of the genestealers I scrounged from Space Hulk and Space Crusade, since it cost me so much to get the bigger things like a Screamer Killer, Lictor and a Hive Tyrant.

So kids these days aren't really worse off than kids were back then, at least in Australia.

That's true to an extent. Although, there were much cheaper options back then than there are now. You could get sets of stuff for bulk discount more easily - I got 3 box sets for the price of 2 for instance, as part of a GW sale (yes - it was a long time ago! ), there were also much cheaper options for games. I remember my mates and I clubbing together to buy 'Tyranid attack' for instance, and we even took our stuff into the store to play. Later then when Necromunda/Mordheim, Blood Bowl and the like came out again you could play for around the £15 or so mark. The other 'core' game (Epic when I was a kid for most of the time, although the games used to rotate) was also cheaper than 40k/WFB. And, the latter two were also cheaper - a 1500pt army, which was the going army size back then, was barely a couple of tactical squads, perhaps some terminators, a character and a vehicle!

I think the problem is really the high 'entry point' for games now. The specialist games might as well not exist as far as new gamers are concerned (I saw a 'What are these small miniatures? lol' thread here on Dakka not that long ago - referring to Epic of course, which I have to say made me rather sad!) When I was a kid usually 1 or 2 of my mates (including myself) were really into it, i.e. we would save pocket money and get it for xmas/birthday presents, but the vast bulk of our playing friends were the ones who were much more casual - who might save pocket money for a couple of weeks or a month to get a Blood Bowl team, but whose xmas presents would probably go on other stuff. Those more 'casual' players (be they kids or even adults for that matter), will now have moved on to other games, or perhaps even stopped playing entirely for that matter.

As that 'other stuff' market grows massively (there are a lot more shiny baubles around now than when I was a kid, much more competition for the kid and the parent's money), and GW has gone up in price well beyond the rate of inflation (as noted above, the 'buy in' is now substantially more expensive) then I can't help but feel that GW is reducing the number of new players and youngsters it brings onboard, even as the games are increasingly targeted at them.

I see it as a mother buying the tactical squad, no knowing what it is, just looking cool.
And i have nothing against arents buying this for their kids, heck my mom asked me what i wanted for my b-day(im turing 20) and im generally surprised she plans on spending more then 30 buck.
I think people who dont like kids on the game, dont like to take it light heartedly.

Pacific wrote:How on earth can a 12 year old in 2012 earn enough money to collect GW stuff? I'm guessing a paper round of about half a city which combines sale of low-class narcotics at the same time?

When working as a staffer (some years ago now) I attended yearly meetings where the training guys actually used the phrase 'little Timmy' in terms of how you should try and sell stuff to parents and their kids. There is no secret at all that that is the target market, and the model range, rules, prices and everything else have been indicative of that for at least a decade now.

Be part of the 1%. it seems to be that parents pony up, partially because they're getting out of the store without having to bnegotiate with the kid about NOT buying that M-for Mature X360 game. And yes, there are several Timmys at my store.

Of course Warhammer has been around long enough that some gamers are bringing their kids in and getting them into it.

hotsauceman1 wrote:
I think people who dont like kids on the game, dont like to take it light heartedly.

QFT.

Trench-Raider wrote:GW was concentrating on the kiddie market

Tempting to quote out of context

Trench-Raider wrote:

Flashman wrote:There's a belief that little Timmy (or more precisely little Timmy's parents) are driving the cost of the (GW) hobby up because they're are resistant to high prices leading to a willingness to pay pricing strategy by GW.

It's not just a belief. It's been GW stated policy for many years. There was a memo from GW US that got leaked back in the late '90s entitled "kids, kids, kids" that outlined how GW was concentrating on the kiddie market rather than their older veteran players. I'll have to dig around and find the text of it.

As for me, I simply refuse to deal with "little timmy". I have very little patinece with kids and pretty much refuse to play with anyone younger than late teens or so.

TR

There are the little timmys. The ones Mom leave at the GW store after making a freaking purchase and does not have the social... eh lets be blunt... Spoiled, Rotten, Annoying little brats that should not be in the store because of their short attention span.

Then there are those that actually want to try to learn the game. These are the ones you try to help and get into the hobby in general. I'm all in for that.

Adam LongWalker wrote:does not have the social... eh lets be blunt... Spoiled, Rotten, Annoying little brats that should not be in the store because of their short attention span.

Sadly I have seen many "adult" gamers that have far worse qualities....

On an interesting side note, I was in my local GW yesterday picking up some paint when I heard a parent going at it somewhat after seeing the pithy amount of Superglue one gets for their money (£4.10 for 5g) she was asking how GW can justify charging so much for so little and about the high prices in general. It was fairly amusing to watch them squirm and come up with said justification. Wish I'd stopped around to see how it ended.