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So my brother and I where discussing Halo and he asked me what a Stat line of a Spartan would be. I thought about it for a bit and heres what I came up with.

WS: 4 BS: 4 S: 4 T: 4 INT: 4 A: 1 Ld: 8 Sv: 4+/6++

It was really hard deciding if they would be S/T 3 or 4 since a there isnt a scale for high 3 or low 4. So for now their on the low end of 4 but still a 4. WS 4 since they're trained in H2H. same for BS. Tho again I had a tough time for wither 3 or 4.

The save may sound off to Halo fans, but the UNSC is a lower tech then the Imperium. The Standard Flak vest can stop a direct hit from a .50 Cal machine gun. (what a Heavy Stubber is) Basic marine armor can't and I'm pretty sure ODST armor can't either, but I'm being generous. So basically the Spartan is a better WS/BS Scout with a 6++. I'm thinking maybe 13ppm.

Weagear: Battle Rifle: Str 3 AP - 24in Rapid Fire. or SMG/ Assault Rifle Str 3 AP - 18in Assault 2. Frag Grenades. CCW. Pistol ( Str 3 12in Pistol)

Here's a tip: Ask yourself whether you want to be "true to fluff" or "true to the terrible stat scale of the wargame."

There's no in-between for these. The statline is so generalized and so shifted towards 3-5 that 6-10 and 1-2 dont even matter in 90% of cases.

If you want to be true to fluff, you can acknolwedge that space marines need much higher stats in a lot of cases, allowing you to do whatever with the spartan.

If you want to adhere to the rigorous crapline of the 40k wargame, you have to acknowledge that:

Straken is S6 with only 1 aug. S7 on the charge.

Sisters of Battle and Vets are BS4 and don't have half the experience, training, or augs that spartans do (SII's have 50 years of direct combat experience).

Veteran Sergeants have A2 Ld9; lowly company commanders have A3 Ld10. Spartans outrank, out-think, out-stubborn, and out-will Company Commanders by a mile.

I4 is human plus a little. I5 is where spartans fit along the crapline - their reflexes are servo+thought-gel+hyper-hud-augmented (+1), as well as genetically and biologically enhanced (another +1).

T4 is spot on; W2 is required.

FNP required.

Drop the invuln save and roll the Shield into 3+ armour.

Battle Rifle relies on precision more than stopping power; to be fluff-accurate, would be S3 AP5 24"/36", Salvo 2/3. SMG would be 12" S3 AP- pistol 3, and able to dual-wield for the pistol fighter.

Comparing the heavy Stubber to a 50cal is perfectly accurate. Assuming the heavy Stubber profile makes contextual sense, however would be fallatic.

tl;dr - if you want to put Spartans into 40K, you must first remove contextual and consistency errors, set the stage for relative comparisons, and alter how hitting and damaging works.

50ppm and squad+army max of 5. They're imperial allies and can take demo charges, operate as characters for other units, have defensive, plasma, and krak grenades, and can steal weapons from models they kill as well as hijack tanks.

chrisrawr wrote:Here's a tip: Ask yourself whether you want to be "true to fluff" or "true to the terrible stat scale of the wargame."

There's no in-between for these. The statline is so generalized and so shifted towards 3-5 that 6-10 and 1-2 dont even matter in 90% of cases.

If you want to be true to fluff, you can acknolwedge that space marines need much higher stats in a lot of cases, allowing you to do whatever with the spartan.

If you want to adhere to the rigorous crapline of the 40k wargame, you have to acknowledge that:

I'm using other models as a rough guide, and Marines IMO are more powerful then a Spartan

Straken is S6 with only 1 aug. S7 on the charge

.

He has a powerfist neurologically grafted to his arm, sound legit str 6 to me.

Sisters of Battle and Vets are BS4 and don't have half the experience, training, or augs that spartans do (SII's have 50 years of direct combat experience).

Again BS 4 seems standard for combat verterans and even Marines with CENTURIES of experience.

Veteran Sergeants have A2 Ld9; lowly company commanders have A3 Ld10. Spartans outrank, out-think, out-stubborn, and out-will Company Commanders by a mile.

IG company commanders have LD 9, and these are men who have lived through battles that make the Covie war look like a small skirmish.

I4 is human plus a little. I5 is where spartans fit along the crapline - their reflexes are servo+thought-gel+hyper-hud-augmented (+1), as well as genetically and biologically enhanced (another +1).

I4 is marine standard. I believe Spartans are slightly inferior to space marines.

T4 is spot on; W2 is required.

Nope. Marines don't have w2 so Spartans won't

FNP required.

Why?

Drop the invuln save and roll the Shield into 3+ armour.

I could do this.

Battle Rifle relies on precision more than stopping power; to be fluff-accurate, would be S3 AP5 24"/36", Salvo 2/3. SMG would be 12" S3 AP- pistol 3, and able to dual-wield for the pistol fighter.

Lasguns in fluff are just as strong and more deadly and sccurate. a Battle Rifle is roughtly a lasgun so it stands at S3 Ap - 24in Rapid Fire. I might make the SMG duel wieldable, but no pistol is more then one shot, iirc.

Comparing the heavy Stubber to a 50cal is perfectly accurate. Assuming the heavy Stubber profile makes contextual sense, however would be fallatic.

It gives me some idea of the capiblities of armor.

tl;dr - if you want to put Spartans into 40K, you must first remove contextual and consistency errors, set the stage for relative comparisons, and alter how hitting and damaging works.

50ppm and squad+army max of 5. They're imperial allies and can take demo charges, operate as characters for other units, have defensive, plasma, and krak grenades, and can steal weapons from models they kill as well as hijack tanks.

Yeah, no. Space Marines are better then spartans if you compare fluff to fluff, and I hate marines. However the basis was a Space Marine Scout as a Sparten, that seems close from a fluff wise perspective. So it then will translate into a slightly better Scout, with slightly worse equipment. You may think Halo Fluff is powerful, but it pales to 40k fluff.

Let's go back to your first point.

You are using other models as a guide.

Let's now go to my first point.

The statlines for the wargame are bogus and do not represent fluff at all.

So to rehash: The suggestions I gave are if you want to get as close to a middle-ground as possible. There is no middle ground, but as limx approaches middle ground, you begin to get things that are more powerful than marine models, because - as I stated - the statlines for the wargame are bogus and do not represent fluff at all.


To the rest of your points: It's not a power fist, it's just some bio-tech implants. It's represented as a power fist because "lol we can". Also, how come "getting angry" is powerful enough to make his multi-laser-strength powerfist into autocannon-strength? Oh, right, because the statlines for the wargame are bogus and do not represent fluff at all.

The reason Vets have the same BS as Marines is because 40K uses a direct comparison of BS to Dice Roll required, and altering it in any significant way means you have to pump marine points, meaning players need less marines, meaning gw sells less marines. The factor, "GW still needs to make money off the game" is important when considering the way they've represented their bogus statlines that do not represent fluff at all.

Company Commanders aren't even bigshots. Spartans are guys that the bigshots don't even know about until they need to work directly with them. Remember: Military chain of command and hierarchy hasn't changed much in 40,000 years. Everyone at the bottom is still mushrooms, and CC's are only a few steps up from the bottom in the run of things.

Here is where we begin diverging in direction: No one is disputing that Warhammer fluff is well over the top of Halo fluff. What I am saying and will continue to say: the statlines for the wargame are bogus and do not represent fluff at all.

It's not about what marine stats are vs what spartan stats are: Marine stats are bogus and the statline is bogus. "Movie Marines" are closer to fluff than marines are by orders of magnitude.

There's also no way to justify the difference between S4 and S5, or S3 and S4, other than "oops I got mad when I ran at you." The difference between a human and A HUMAN THAT CAN WRECK A TANK? getting mad and running.

FNP for medigel. Med kits confer FNP, medigel like having your entire body be inside a medkit. Also, psychological training directed explicitly at forcing their brains to block-out pain.

Lasguns in the fluff can do anything from taking a man's arm off, to bouncing harmlessly off an iron brestplate. Lasguns have no obective measurement for power, whereas we have the stats of both a bolt round and a battle rifle burst, and know exactly how much damage each can inflict. We can compare them better once we get a statline that isn't bogus.

The stubber profile as a .50 cal doesn't make sense because: A) it doesn't ID humans, B) it doesn't have a high enough rate of fire, and C) humans wearing cardboard armour get their saves against it. This is because we have no dynamic way of comparing armour to armour pen, and also because the statlines for the wargame are bogus and do not represent fluff at all.

For your final point, I again assert: No one is saying spartans are better than marines assuming no one has plot armour. The master chief is definitely luckier, and with cortana, would be able to evade and guerilla - but he would be tech-heresied SO fething FAST your nipples would spin.

You're also assuming that the equipment from 40K is significantly better than 2.5k; it isn't. Anything that isn't easily upkept and handed down verbally through rituals has been lost. They're essentially cave-squatters using stone tools, because they're unable to replicate the disgustingly powerful and advanced stuff that was available before the fall.

I MEAN COME ON, BEFORE THE DECLINE OF MAN, WE WERE BUILDING MACHINES THAT WOULD PRESS THE OLD ONES. LEGIONS. LEGIONS OF TITANS WERE SENT OUT WITH COLONY SHIPS. Now, we can barely operate a titan, let alone a legion of them.

So yeah, having been in on much of the fluff reveals of halo, and being a somewhat adequate lore-adept for 40K, I'm much better-equipped to say what you think you're saying than you are (which is to say, I'm agreeing with you, but for different reasons, and your reasons are shallow - I'm not tooting my horn, just pointing out that there's an experience gap here that your post was decidedly disrespectful toward). I'm also saying that the statlines for the wargame are bogus and do not represent fluff at all. Which is what you have to understand if you want to add Spartans to the game. There is NO WAY TO MAKE SPARTANS SUITABLY BETTER THAN HUMANS, WITHOUT MAKING THEM UNSUITABLY BETTER THAN MARINES, BECAUSE the statlines for the wargame are bogus and do not represent fluff at all.


Also, if you wanna compare fluffbombs, there's no weapon in the IoM that comes close to the standard MAC round, which for some reason was given ALMOST SIX ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE more power than it should've been.

This also means that covenant flagship shields are practically immune to anything short of a planet-cracker or voidbomb - seeing as it takes 3 MAC rounds to break through, and each MAC round could completely vaporize a planet - and then some.

My style of building a new models rules is to take something similar to the model, compared its fluff, then using the exsisting models as a guide, modify its stats to reflect the difference. So for me, a Spartan fitting into a 40k TT game would be


WS: 4 BS: 4 S: 4 T: 4 INT: 4 A: 1 Ld: 8 Sv: 4+
With either an Autogun (battle rifle) or an Assault 2 str 3 ap - 18in range SMG that can be duel wielded. Frag Grenade, Krak Grenades(I'm going to assume they have an equivalent) A CCW and a Str 3 Ap - Pistol. All for 13PPM

I downgraded the armor, I don't see MJOLNIR armor on Par with Power Armor. As for Leadership, thats the same leadership as a space marine who has been in service for Centuries its good enough for them Its good enough for a Spartan. I'll also throw in something smiler to ATSKNF for the Spartans, something lore specific.

I went into this thinking "Oh god, Halo fanboy bullcrap incoming". Instead, I find a nice balanced statline that I would be happy to play against. My only complaint is WS 4, I thought spartans (save the chief, 'cause he's Leet) were kinda sucky in H2H (going from the first statline, the one with the 6++). Otherwise it is a massive, massive from me, a self confessed Halo anti-fan. Kudos.

Kasrkin are 4+, im sure spartan armor have 3+

chrisrawr, you are wise :]

chrisrawr wrote:

The statlines for the wargame are bogus and do not represent fluff at all.

Seriously? You're honestly...
I can't believe you just said that. To a degree, you're right. But that is not true, otherwise orks, guardsmen , marines and Eldar would all share the same statline.

@OP Stick with the first stat line. Spartans don't need FNP, a 3+ save or anything like SM. They are not SM. The 4+/6++ was a good idea. Sure, the stat lines might not be 100% fluffy, but you have to try and make it fit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait wait wait, 2 wounds? Spartans "need" two wounds? No, just no. FNP required, 3+ save... Yeah, no. not happening. Not a good idea.

Actually FNP makes sense with the medigel or what ever it's called. Otherwise, I'm more or less fine with the statline in the OP, it's not the statline I'd imagine, but it's fine by me.

Really? I suppose it's a 5+ but that makes them more durable than a SM with a 4+/5+++. Id say a 5+5+++ would be fair, but then the amount of AP5 weaponry means I'm wrong.

4+/FNP then, without the 6++ (although I liked the 6++), I think that sounds fair.

Righto, if you're going to use Space Marines as a comparison, we have to acknowledge that no mere human, no matter how well-trained, deserves a 4 in any stat, and indeed, S4 is mighty.

S4 is representative of Servos capable of lifting many-tonne spaceship parts. It's representative of a 2-tonne suit of armour with a 200 pound fist smashing you at over 100 miles an hour. It's representative of the awesome might of mechanical systems and stresses, which would tear normal human tissue to pieces.

T4 is representative of the multiple redundancies that go into a Space Marine's physiology. It's representative of the steroids and god-seed present in their systems. T4 represents the ability to be shot by a modern-day tank and keep trucking, with or without power armour.

WS4 represents decades, if not centuries, of training in the arts martial, the arts combative, and the firearm arts. It represents dozens, if not hundreds, of campaigns and victories. It also represents the power of the black carapace to aid and assist, and indeed enhance, their very minds and senses far beyond any mere mortals.

BS4 represents, again, the enhanced senses and abilities brought by the carapace, their geneseed, and their power armour's ability to negate all recoil from any weapon smaller than a battle cannon. Servos are awesome.

Ld8 represents a space marine's unshakable will in the face of decades of atrocity.

I4 and A1 represents a space marine's incredible machine-enhanced speed and lethality - able to kill a man simply by walking over him, able to plant precision blows without stopping in his advance, the space marine is a terror.

Sv3+ represents the tank-like armour of the space marine. Able to easily survive a fullisade of laserbeams, shrapnel, plasma, and worse, the space marine is at home in his role as a storm-trooper and walking war machine.

With this in mind, my new proposed statline for humans and spartans.

Guardsman: WS1.5 BS1.5 S1.1 T1.1 W0.2 I1.5 A0.2 Ld4 Sv9+

Spartans: WS2 BS3 S3 T2 W0.5 I2.5 A0.6 Ld7 Sv4.5+

And some weapons

Lasgun: S1 AP10 range 24" rapidfire
Bolter: S3 AP6 range 24" rapidfire
Heavy Bolter: S4 AP5 range 36" assault 5 for space marines, heavy 3 for everyone else.
Battle Rifle: S2 AP7 range24 assault 3
SMG: S1.5 AP8 Range18 assault 3, 2 = assault 5

And now everyone can be happy.

chrisrawr wrote:Righto, if you're going to use Space Marines as a comparison, we have to acknowledge that no mere human, no matter how well-trained, deserves a 4 in any stat, and indeed, S4 is mighty.

S4 is representative of Servos capable of lifting many-tonne spaceship parts. It's representative of a 2-tonne suit of armour with a 200 pound fist smashing you at over 100 miles an hour. It's representative of the awesome might of mechanical systems and stresses, which would tear normal human tissue to pieces.

T4 is representative of the multiple redundancies that go into a Space Marine's physiology. It's representative of the steroids and god-seed present in their systems. T4 represents the ability to be shot by a modern-day tank and keep trucking, with or without power armour.

WS4 represents decades, if not centuries, of training in the arts martial, the arts combative, and the firearm arts. It represents dozens, if not hundreds, of campaigns and victories. It also represents the power of the black carapace to aid and assist, and indeed enhance, their very minds and senses far beyond any mere mortals.

BS4 represents, again, the enhanced senses and abilities brought by the carapace, their geneseed, and their power armour's ability to negate all recoil from any weapon smaller than a battle cannon. Servos are awesome.

Ld8 represents a space marine's unshakable will in the face of decades of atrocity.

What?

I4 and A1 represents a space marine's incredible machine-enhanced speed and lethality - able to kill a man simply by walking over him, able to plant precision blows without stopping in his advance, the space marine is a terror.

Sv3+ represents the tank-like armour of the space marine. Able to easily survive a fullisade of laserbeams, shrapnel, plasma, and worse, the space marine is at home in his role as a storm-trooper and walking war machine.

With this in mind, my new proposed statline for humans and spartans.

Guardsman: WS1.5 BS1.5 S1.1 T1.1 W0.2 I1.5 A0.2 Ld4 Sv9+

Spartans: WS2 BS3 S3 T2 W0.5 I2.5 A0.6 Ld7 Sv4.5+

And some weapons

Lasgun: S1 AP10 range 24" rapidfire
Bolter: S3 AP6 range 24" rapidfire
Heavy Bolter: S4 AP5 range 36" assault 5 for space marines, heavy 3 for everyone else.
Battle Rifle: S2 AP7 range24 assault 3
SMG: S1.5 AP8 Range18 assault 3, 2 = assault 5

And now everyone can be happy.

What?

kinratha wrote:

chrisrawr wrote:PARODY ABOUT HOW THE STATS AND THE WAY THEY INTERACT WITH THE GAME FOR 40K ARE SILLY

What?

What?

chrisrawr wrote:

Spoiler:

Righto, if you're going to use Space Marines as a comparison, we have to acknowledge that no mere human, no matter how well-trained, deserves a 4 in any stat, and indeed, S4 is mighty.

S4 is representative of Servos capable of lifting many-tonne spaceship parts. It's representative of a 2-tonne suit of armour with a 200 pound fist smashing you at over 100 miles an hour. It's representative of the awesome might of mechanical systems and stresses, which would tear normal human tissue to pieces.

T4 is representative of the multiple redundancies that go into a Space Marine's physiology. It's representative of the steroids and god-seed present in their systems. T4 represents the ability to be shot by a modern-day tank and keep trucking, with or without power armour.

WS4 represents decades, if not centuries, of training in the arts martial, the arts combative, and the firearm arts. It represents dozens, if not hundreds, of campaigns and victories. It also represents the power of the black carapace to aid and assist, and indeed enhance, their very minds and senses far beyond any mere mortals.

BS4 represents, again, the enhanced senses and abilities brought by the carapace, their geneseed, and their power armour's ability to negate all recoil from any weapon smaller than a battle cannon. Servos are awesome.

Ld8 represents a space marine's unshakable will in the face of decades of atrocity.

I4 and A1 represents a space marine's incredible machine-enhanced speed and lethality - able to kill a man simply by walking over him, able to plant precision blows without stopping in his advance, the space marine is a terror.

Sv3+ represents the tank-like armour of the space marine. Able to easily survive a fullisade of laserbeams, shrapnel, plasma, and worse, the space marine is at home in his role as a storm-trooper and walking war machine.

With this in mind, my new proposed statline for humans and spartans.

Guardsman: WS1.5 BS1.5 S1.1 T1.1 W0.2 I1.5 A0.2 Ld4 Sv9+

Spartans: WS2 BS3 S3 T2 W0.5 I2.5 A0.6 Ld7 Sv4.5+

And some weapons

Lasgun: S1 AP10 range 24" rapidfire
Bolter: S3 AP6 range 24" rapidfire
Heavy Bolter: S4 AP5 range 36" assault 5 for space marines, heavy 3 for everyone else.
Battle Rifle: S2 AP7 range24 assault 3
SMG: S1.5 AP8 Range18 assault 3, 2 = assault 5

And now everyone can be happy.

He has a point, the tabletop vs fluff really doesn't balance well >> Though to be fair the fluff doesn't balance either, but hey thats sci-fi (as is halo). Now, baring in mind that they're 2 sci-fi worlds ruled by cool (with the exception of a few nice little psuedo-science bits), SOME of the proposed changes make sense, In terms of the invuln save, how about something along the lines of 5+/3++ FNP, with a special rule, after he fails the 3++, but before FNP, for the next turn he loses the 3++ (as in the shield going down). Turn after that, if still alive gets it back. Seem fair?

Im not gonna touch the rest of it yet before thinking thruogh a bit more. Hope this helped

The thing is, his shield isn't really an invuln save. It doesn't act like one at all. Invuln saves are forcefields that can withstand almost any damage, with failure being more due to power-source, old equipment, or sustained assault. Halo's shields are kinetic energy absorbers - they're literally a field of energy that absorbs the energy of other things, disperses it over the entire shield, and shuts down before the nuclear backpack fueling it overheats.

With enough power and surface area, spartan shields become almost invincible - a dozen large-scale fusion reactors from 40K would be enough to charge a planet-wide forcefield, able to repel even exterminatus (based on the stats we have for mac rounds, covenant shields and covenant energy systems, and 40k fusion reactors).

Anyways, it's more like ablative armour. Something similar to what you proposed, but minus invuln - 3+/4+ save, failing the 3+ pops it down to 4+ for the next game turn, then back up to 3+. Something like a melta will simply power through it - meltaguns are comparable to a beam/swath of channeled Wraith Blast from Halo.

The fluff balances pretty well i you can get rid of of enough plot holes, and get stats on enough things that you can piece together what's missing.

chrisrawr wrote:The thing is, his shield isn't really an invuln save. It doesn't act like one at all. Invuln saves are forcefields that can withstand almost any damage, with failure being more due to power-source, old equipment, or sustained assault. Halo's shields are kinetic energy absorbers - they're literally a field of energy that absorbs the energy of other things, disperses it over the entire shield, and shuts down before the nuclear backpack fueling it overheats.

With enough power and surface area, spartan shields become almost invincible - a dozen large-scale fusion reactors from 40K would be enough to charge a planet-wide forcefield, able to repel even exterminatus (based on the stats we have for mac rounds, covenant shields and covenant energy systems, and 40k fusion reactors).

Anyways, it's more like ablative armour. Something similar to what you proposed, but minus invuln - 3+/4+ save, failing the 3+ pops it down to 4+ for the next game turn, then back up to 3+. Something like a melta will simply power through it - meltaguns are comparable to a beam/swath of channeled Wraith Blast from Halo.

The fluff balances pretty well i you can get rid of of enough plot holes, and get stats on enough things that you can piece together what's missing.

True, but take into account the fluff and game dont balance with halo either. In the game the shield can get ripped up like that due to it being dispersed evenly across all the Armour, in the fluff the shield can be directed at specific points to intensify it, but leaving vulnerable in other areas.

Edit: granted though, suppose is an argument of points too. depending how the rest is worked out, id call the invuln worth more points than an armour save, if it gets too over the top the armour save would work fine. plus it depends what were going for, OP posted PPM and theoretical stats for something, by the luck of it, thats weak enough to be used in bulk. I guess were assuming the use of something along the line of wolf guard or sanguine priests

LunaHound wrote:Kasrkin are 4+, im sure spartan armor have 3+

chrisrawr, you are wise :]

IDK about that, Kasrkin Carapace Armour covers the entire body and can resist bolter fire in game. Could MC honestly survive a krak grenade to the chest or a heavy bolter round to the chest? Besides the invul save (I assume it represents the shielding) probably makes up for the inferior armour save to an extent.

consider the following: Bolter Rounds are similar to Brute-Shot.

MC can survive 4 Brute-Shot.

chrisrawr wrote:consider the following: Bolter Rounds are similar to Brute-Shot.

MC can survive 4 Brute-Shot.

I really wouldn't compare a brute shot to a bolter, at least not as equal weapons, a brute shot is more like a frag grenade than a heavy bolter shot.

@ chriswrar: wut........

So a grenade launcher (brute shot) is similar to a riffle that unloads mini rockets (unless thats changed from 5th ed to 6th ed) that explode once embeded into a target instead of when it brushes up against them? Im sorry but if a spartan took a bolter shot it would be completely different then a brute shot shot.

To OP i like your original stat line.

Seriously? is this going to degenerate into a "my franchise is more awesome and overthe top than yours" argument?

liquidjoshi wrote:I went into this thinking "Oh god, Halo fanboy bullcrap incoming". Instead, I find a nice balanced statline that I would be happy to play against. My only complaint is WS 4, I thought spartans (save the chief, 'cause he's Leet) were kinda sucky in H2H (going from the first statline, the one with the 6++). Otherwise it is a massive, massive from me, a self confessed Halo anti-fan. Kudos.

Thanks, While i enjoy Halo I am by no means a FanBoy.

LunaHound wrote:Kasrkin are 4+, im sure spartan armor have 3+

chrisrawr, you are wise :]

Think of the Differnet Tech levels. Power armor is extremely bulky and made of Sci-materials, MJOLNIR is no where near as bulky, and covers about the same area as Carapace armor. Which is not powered, and can be worn by a standard human without being crippled by moving your pinkie.

King Pariah wrote:Actually FNP makes sense with the medigel or what ever it's called. Otherwise, I'm more or less fine with the statline in the OP, it's not the statline I'd imagine, but it's fine by me.

Space Marines have some SPACE MAGIC mumbojumbo that gives them advanced healing , and they don't have the FNP USR.

chrisrawr wrote:

Spoiler:

Righto, if you're going to use Space Marines as a comparison, we have to acknowledge that no mere human, no matter how well-trained, deserves a 4 in any stat, and indeed, S4 is mighty.

S4 is representative of Servos capable of lifting many-tonne spaceship parts. It's representative of a 2-tonne suit of armour with a 200 pound fist smashing you at over 100 miles an hour. It's representative of the awesome might of mechanical systems and stresses, which would tear normal human tissue to pieces.

T4 is representative of the multiple redundancies that go into a Space Marine's physiology. It's representative of the steroids and god-seed present in their systems. T4 represents the ability to be shot by a modern-day tank and keep trucking, with or without power armour.

WS4 represents decades, if not centuries, of training in the arts martial, the arts combative, and the firearm arts. It represents dozens, if not hundreds, of campaigns and victories. It also represents the power of the black carapace to aid and assist, and indeed enhance, their very minds and senses far beyond any mere mortals.

BS4 represents, again, the enhanced senses and abilities brought by the carapace, their geneseed, and their power armour's ability to negate all recoil from any weapon smaller than a battle cannon. Servos are awesome.

Ld8 represents a space marine's unshakable will in the face of decades of atrocity.

I4 and A1 represents a space marine's incredible machine-enhanced speed and lethality - able to kill a man simply by walking over him, able to plant precision blows without stopping in his advance, the space marine is a terror.

Sv3+ represents the tank-like armour of the space marine. Able to easily survive a fullisade of laserbeams, shrapnel, plasma, and worse, the space marine is at home in his role as a storm-trooper and walking war machine.

With this in mind, my new proposed statline for humans and spartans.

Guardsman: WS1.5 BS1.5 S1.1 T1.1 W0.2 I1.5 A0.2 Ld4 Sv9+

Spartans: WS2 BS3 S3 T2 W0.5 I2.5 A0.6 Ld7 Sv4.5+

And some weapons

Lasgun: S1 AP10 range 24" rapidfire
Bolter: S3 AP6 range 24" rapidfire
Heavy Bolter: S4 AP5 range 36" assault 5 for space marines, heavy 3 for everyone else.
Battle Rifle: S2 AP7 range24 assault 3
SMG: S1.5 AP8 Range18 assault 3, 2 = assault 5

And now everyone can be happy.

Yeah, except unlike most fan made models I try to stay withing the established range of stats. I compare two like things, then use the already existing ones stats to create a new model. I feel that's better then arbitrarily assigning values because their awesome. Like if I man a UNSC Marine it would have a basic Guardsman stats. Only with s 6+ save since I feel that their armor is inferior to Flak.

doc1234 wrote:

He has a point, the tabletop vs fluff really doesn't balance well >> Though to be fair the fluff doesn't balance either, but hey thats sci-fi (as is halo). Now, baring in mind that they're 2 sci-fi worlds ruled by cool (with the exception of a few nice little psuedo-science bits), SOME of the proposed changes make sense, In terms of the invuln save, how about something along the lines of 5+/3++ FNP, with a special rule, after he fails the 3++, but before FNP, for the next turn he loses the 3++ (as in the shield going down). Turn after that, if still alive gets it back. Seem fair?

Im not gonna touch the rest of it yet before thinking thruogh a bit more. Hope this helped

Yeah its hard to compare fluff to fluff, but this is my interpretation of the stats, you can use what ever you want. Spartans maybe top dogs in Halo, but in 40k they would be pretty average stat wise.

doc1234 wrote:Seriously? is this going to degenerate into a "my franchise is more awesome and overthe top than yours" argument?

I hope not, I'm a fan of both, however I feel that 40k would curb stomp Halo.

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Can Spartan armor take bolter rounds?

Dunno.

In the Fall of Reach, Cortana states that the Chief's shields "can't take more than a few 30mm rounds". Moments later, he tanks a point-blank explosion from an anti-tank missile fired at him from a jet fighter. The blast depletes his shields and sprangs his ankle, but otherwise he's fine.

A standard bolter round is apparently .75 caliber. I don't know how that compares to a 30mm round, but a quick wiki search states that 30mm rounds are anti-vehicle rounds, and are usually used by helicopters, tanks, jeeps etc for light anti-armor.Combining that with his armor tanking the missile strike, I'd say that it's more than durable enough to handle bolter rounds.

edit- Did another quick search. Apparently a 30mm round is bigger than a .75 caliber round.

So anyway, not trying to derail the thread or turn this into a Halo vs. WH40K thing- just throwing some info out there that you might find helpful. Spartans might not be as weak compared to Marines as some would think.

BlaxicanX wrote:Can Spartan armor take bolter rounds?

Dunno.

In the Fall of Reach, Cortana states that the Chief's shields "can't take more than a few 30mm rounds". Moments later, he tanks a point-blank explosion from an anti-tank missile fired at him from a jet fighter. The blast depletes his shields and sprangs his ankle, but otherwise he's fine.

A standard bolter round is apparently .75 caliber. I don't know how that compares to a 30mm round, but a quick wiki search states that 30mm rounds are anti-vehicle rounds, and are usually used by helicopters, tanks, jeeps etc for light anti-armor.Combining that with his armor tanking the missile strike, I'd say that it's more than durable enough to handle bolter rounds.

edit- Did another quick search. Apparently a 30mm round is bigger than a .75 caliber round.

So anyway, not trying to derail the thread or turn this into a Halo vs. WH40K thing- just throwing some info out there that you might find helpful. Spartans might not be as weak compared to Marines as some would think.

You didn't factor in the magic of plot armour. Chief can and will survive almost anything thrown at him because he's the main character.

So, don't forget Spartans can punch through tanks. How are you going to represent that if they are only S4?

Armor save is terrible, should be 3+/4++ at least.

Battle Rifle fires exploding AP rounds, so S3 AP- is awful; not to mention awful all around. S4 AP5 Assault 3 is what I would suggest at least.

50ppm and squad+army max of 5. They're imperial allies and can take demo charges, operate as characters for other units, have defensive, plasma, and krak grenades, and can steal weapons from models they kill as well as hijack tanks.

I like this much better than the 'balanced' version you appear to be going for.

Also, really Kasrkin armor better than Spartan armor that requires a mechanical armature to even put on and weighs 1000lbs? Wtf kind of joke is this? Spartan armor is AT LEAST as effective as Space Marine Power Armor, and likely better considering its integrated shielding system. A 'standard' human CANNOT wear Spartan armor, and can't even equip it without bio modification.

Chris is the only one in here who seems to have any idea what he is talking about.

In case you all missed the memo, 40k tech is built on the back of centuries of handed down religious rites to create things, I wouldn't necessarily call some of it 'high-tech' anymore. Also, stat lines, like Chris stated before, aren't even close to fluff. I wish Space Marines were closer to how they are represented in the fiction, but then GW would sell a lot less models.

I am a big fan of both universes, and I'd say my lore knowledge of each is pretty broad.

My quick statline, in my personal opinion they should be closer to an Assassin rather than a Space Marine, other than they share similar armor saves

Spartan
WS4 BS6 S5 T4 I5 A2 W2 Ld9 Sv 3+/4++*
Battle Rifle: S4 AP5 Assault 3 24"/36" 24" moving, 36" heavy profile
SMG: S4 AP6 Assault 5 12"
Sniper Rifle (purchasable option) follows rules for Vindicare rifle using Turbo-Penetrator

Special rules: Regenerating shield, hijack, weapon-grab, move through cover, stealth

Regenerating shield: 4++ to start, once a save is made, it changes to 5++, once another save is made 6++, if a save is made at 6++ the shield is exhausted. The shield regenerates at the beginning of the next player turn

hijack: When in B2B contact with an enemy vehicle, the Spartan can attempt to wrest control of the vehicle. On a 4+ the Spartan steals the vehicle and is removed from play temporarily, as he is in control of the enemy vehicle. The controlling player can choose to relinquish control of the vehicle and come back onto the board using disembarkation rules, and the vehicle is wrecked. If the vehicle is wrecked while the Spartan is inside, he must disembark.

weapon-grab: When a Spartan is in play, place a token where an enemy squad with a special weapon has been killed. On the Spartan controlling player's turn, he may choose to pick up a dropped special weapon and use it for that shooting phase. After the shooting phase is over, the Spartan discards the special weapon due to it being out of ammunition, low on power, etc.

daedalus-templarius wrote:So, don't forget Spartans can punch through tanks. How are you going to represent that if they are only S4?

By having them punch tanks. All attacks are resolved against the rear armour meaning S4 can easily glance a vehicle with AV10 rear (almost all vehicles sans Monoliths, Land Raiders, and some types of Leman Russ) to death. A squad with 20 attacks, all hit, 3.333 glances, depletes the hull points of any vehicle sans Monoliths and Land Raiders. They sure as hell shouldn't be given str 6 or str 8, since it blows their power against infantry way out of proportion.

Buttons wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:So, don't forget Spartans can punch through tanks. How are you going to represent that if they are only S4?

By having them punch tanks. All attacks are resolved against the rear armour meaning S4 can easily glance a vehicle with AV10 rear (almost all vehicles sans Monoliths, Land Raiders, and some types of Leman Russ) to death. A squad with 20 attacks, all hit, 3.333 glances, depletes the hull points of any vehicle sans Monoliths and Land Raiders. They sure as hell shouldn't be given str 6 or str 8, since it blows their power against infantry way out of proportion.

Well, Spartan's don't operate in squads of 5. They would likely each be an Independent character/character. Space Marine strength should be higher anyway, imo.

daedalus-templarius wrote:Armor save is terrible, should be 3+/4++ at least.

Nope, marine armour is the gak, there is a reason that the only things that can penetrate it are anti-tank weapons, or specialized anti-power armour weapons. An Iron Halo pushes things even further, to the point where you have a 50/50 chance of surviving a hit from anything.

Battle Rifle fires exploding AP rounds, so S3 AP- is awful; not to mention awful all around. S4 AP5 Assault 3 is what I would suggest at least.

A bolter fires 20mm armour piercing gyro-jet shells, yet is only Str 4 AP 5, a lasgun can tear a man's arm off with a single hit. Perhaps Str 3 AP 5, assault 1/heavy 2 (one or the other, decide before shooting).

50ppm and squad+army max of 5. They're imperial allies and can take demo charges, operate as characters for other units, have defensive, plasma, and krak grenades, and can steal weapons from models they kill as well as hijack tanks.

Only if you agree to play with movie marines that are WS:5 BS:5 S:5 T:5 W:2 I:5 A:2 Ld:10 Sv: 3+/5++ with terminator armour giving them +1 toughness and a 2+ armour save. There is a reason marines don't have a fluffy stat line, if they did no one would enjoy playing them.

I like this much better than the 'balanced' version you appear to be going for.

So one should sacrifice 'balance' for fluff. Good luck finding people to play with you.

Also, really Kasrkin armor better than Spartan armor that requires a mechanical armature to even put on and weighs 1000lbs? Wtf kind of joke is this? Spartan armor is AT LEAST as effective as Space Marine Power Armor, and likely better considering its integrated shielding system. A 'standard' human CANNOT wear Spartan armor, and can't even equip it without bio modification.

LOL, space marine armour is gak, all human tech in Halo really is, they still use the exact same cartridge modern rifles do 500 later for the love of god. The difference between a 4+ save and a 3+ save is quite a bit, a 4+ save can protect against a 20mm AP high explosive rocket shell, but fails against the much large heavy bolter shot. Also, good thing Storm Troopers aren't really normal humans, they are pushed to the absolute limit of what a normal human can reach and many receive even further augmentation.

Chris is the only one in here who seems to have any idea what he is talking about.

Chris and I disagree considerably on what is considered "balanced" so that does little to boost your argument in my eyes. Nothing against you Chris, just that we frequently disagree on what is considered balanced.

I

n case you all missed the memo, 40k tech is built on the back of centuries of handed down religious rites to create things, I wouldn't necessarily call some of it 'high-tech' anymore. Also, stat lines, like Chris stated before, aren't even close to fluff. I wish Space Marines were closer to how they are represented in the fiction, but then GW would sell a lot less models.

If marines were fluffy no one would enjoy playing them. "Oh, I charge your 5 marines with my 50 guardsmen and die in 2 turns." "Oh, it only took me 5 plasma gun shots to bring down your terminator." "Oh, your marines can choose whether or not to pass morale checks."

I am a big fan of both universes, and I'd say my lore knowledge of each is pretty broad.

Have you ever read a Black Library book or played the Space Marine vidya game? That is what a fluffy marine is, someone who can literally tear through hundreds of warriors bigger and stronger than humans in close combat. Hell, even ignoring BL and games, the background behind Black Reach is Sicarius leading a single company to slaughter thousands of Orks, which means he achieved at the bare minimum a 10 to 1 kill/death ratio against giant super soldiers including killing a Warboss, which makes the biggest Brute chieftain look like a wimp.

TBH Marine -1 stats are fairly descent, but make the whole idea of making rules meaningless. If you want to make them one man killing machines, make them a special character. Generic Spartan #111 can't take a tank round to the chest, but MC can because he has plot armour. It is the same reason a lascannon will vaporize a terminator, but Calgar can take one to the face and be just fine.

So, if you want to play spartans as a unit, just play marines and model them like spartans, if you want a special character like MC than you actually have a project.

Buttons wrote:
Have you ever read a Black Library book or played the Space Marine vidya game? That is what a fluffy marine is, someone who can literally tear through hundreds of warriors bigger and stronger than humans in close combat. Hell, even ignoring BL and games, the background behind Black Reach is Sicarius leading a single company to slaughter thousands of Orks, which means he achieved at the bare minimum a 10 to 1 kill/death ratio against giant super soldiers including killing a Warboss, which makes the biggest Brute chieftain look like a wimp.

TBH Marine -1 stats are fairly descent, but make the whole idea of making rules meaningless. If you want to make them one man killing machines, make them a special character. Generic Spartan #111 can't take a tank round to the chest, but MC can because he has plot armour. It is the same reason a lascannon will vaporize a terminator, but Calgar can take one to the face and be just fine.

So, if you want to play spartans as a unit, just play marines and model them like spartans, if you want a special character like MC than you actually have a project.

Yes I've read almost all of them, and played through Space Marine plenty. I think marines are poorly stat'd in the tabletop game for how they are portrayed.

Obviously we disagree how we'd run a Spartan, but like I said I'd start with a Vindicare and make modifications.