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daedalus-templarius wrote:So, don't forget Spartans can punch through tanks. How are you going to represent that if they are only S4?

So can marines, and lo and behold they are S4...

Armor save is terrible, should be 3+/4++ at least.

What? Are you serious. No, just no, thats is rediculous. My Spartans will stand at a 4+ save

Battle Rifle fires exploding AP rounds, so S3 AP- is awful; not to mention awful all around. S4 AP5 Assault 3 is what I would suggest at least.

Lasgun cause explosions as they evaporate the water in your cells, Blow your head off you torso, and, have nearly unlimited range in the fluff, so Battle Rifle will stand at current stats.

I like this much better than the 'balanced' version you appear to be going for.

Then design your own "Fluffy" spartans, and ignore the concepts of GW game design.

Also, really Kasrkin armor better than Spartan armor that requires a mechanical armature to even put on and weighs 1000lbs? Wtf kind of joke is this? Spartan armor is AT LEAST as effective as Space Marine Power Armor, and likely better considering its integrated shielding system. A 'standard' human CANNOT wear Spartan armor, and can't even equip it without bio modification.

Well, Its because Halo is lower tech then 40k.

Chris is the only one in here who seems to have any idea what he is talking about.

Right if your completely ignoring game design.

In case you all missed the memo, 40k tech is built on the back of centuries of handed down religious rites to create things, I wouldn't necessarily call some of it 'high-tech' anymore. Also, stat lines, like Chris stated before, aren't even close to fluff. I wish Space Marines were closer to how they are represented in the fiction, but then GW would sell a lot less models.

Right, but I'm not making FLUFFY spartans, I'm making Spartans as how they'd would appear using GW's design philosophy.

I am a big fan of both universes, and I'd say my lore knowledge of each is pretty broad.

So am I.

My quick statline, in my personal opinion they should be closer to an Assassin rather than a Space Marine, other than they share similar armor saves

Spartan
WS4 BS6 S5 T4 I5 A2 W2 Ld9 Sv 3+/4++*
Battle Rifle: S4 AP5 Assault 3 24"/36" 24" moving, 36" heavy profile
SMG: S4 AP6 Assault 5 12"
Sniper Rifle (purchasable option) follows rules for Vindicare rifle using Turbo-Penetrator

See this is where fanboys need to leave their fanboyism at the door when creating a 40k equivilent. You take something that is roughtly equivilent in Fluff. (A Spartan and a Space Marine Scout) and use the existing model as a guide.

Special rules: Regenerating shield, hijack, weapon-grab, move through cover, stealth

I'll go over these one by one.

Regenerating shield: 4++ to start, once a save is made, it changes to 5++, once another save is made 6++, if a save is made at 6++ the shield is exhausted. The shield regenerates at the beginning of the next player turn

No, the shield isn't 4++ strong, it isn't a 6++ it augments the lower tech weaker armor into a 4+ sv

hijack: When in B2B contact with an enemy vehicle, the Spartan can attempt to wrest control of the vehicle. On a 4+ the Spartan steals the vehicle and is removed from play temporarily, as he is in control of the enemy vehicle. The controlling player can choose to relinquish control of the vehicle and come back onto the board using disembarkation rules, and the vehicle is wrecked. If the vehicle is wrecked while the Spartan is inside, he must disembark.

Marines and standard humans do this in 40k fluff but don't have this idotic rule.

weapon-grab: When a Spartan is in play, place a token where an enemy squad with a special weapon has been killed. On the Spartan controlling player's turn, he may choose to pick up a dropped special weapon and use it for that shooting phase. After the shooting phase is over, the Spartan discards the special weapon due to it being out of ammunition, low on power, etc.

Standard humans and marines do this in the fluff, its pointless and slows the game down. So no.

What? Buttons I don't even know what you consider balanced. For me, balanced is "3's across with a 3 weapons is 3 points". The IG then pay a 2 point premium for orders and grenades, which is a steal.

After that, I prefer overcosting as opposed to undercosting, and after that, I prefer models with exploitable weaknesses that encourage interactive gameplay rather than binary units that have to be destroyed to be neutralized, or that only perform one function.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote: Well, Its because Halo is lower tech then 40k.

Please, explain this to me?

Just because its the year 40k, doesn't mean the technical levels are wildly different.

If it was 20k, then sure, because that was the dark age of technology, where humanity was massively advanced to likely forerunner-esque status. Now technology in 40k has fallen into massive disrepair where there is no advancement or new knowledge, just the loss of existing knowledge because everything is of religious rote.

Halo energy shields are based on Covenant tech, which is based on Forerunner tech, which is more advanced than IoM. They have railguns, they have plasma guns, etc; these things exist in 40k. Battle rifle shoots exploding bullets as well, just not of the same caliber as a Bolter. They are armor piercing.

Doesn't sound like you're as familiar with the universe as you think. I'm laughing at energy shields and layered adamantium/titanium armor that has to be put onto a biologically enhanced soldier with an armature being 'lower tech'... its like the same damn thing as a space marine.

Also, calling my rules idiotic; good discussion skills.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Buttons wrote:
Have you ever read a Black Library book or played the Space Marine vidya game? That is what a fluffy marine is, someone who can literally tear through hundreds of warriors bigger and stronger than humans in close combat. Hell, even ignoring BL and games, the background behind Black Reach is Sicarius leading a single company to slaughter thousands of Orks, which means he achieved at the bare minimum a 10 to 1 kill/death ratio against giant super soldiers including killing a Warboss, which makes the biggest Brute chieftain look like a wimp.

TBH Marine -1 stats are fairly descent, but make the whole idea of making rules meaningless. If you want to make them one man killing machines, make them a special character. Generic Spartan #111 can't take a tank round to the chest, but MC can because he has plot armour. It is the same reason a lascannon will vaporize a terminator, but Calgar can take one to the face and be just fine.

So, if you want to play spartans as a unit, just play marines and model them like spartans, if you want a special character like MC than you actually have a project.

Yes I've read almost all of them, and played through Space Marine plenty. I think marines are poorly stat'd in the tabletop game for how they are portrayed.

Obviously we disagree how we'd run a Spartan, but like I said I'd start with a Vindicare and make modifications.

As I stated if marines were fluffy on the TT than no one would enjoy playing marines unless they also played marines (in which case it might as well be called Marinehammer, which sounds like a fun skirmish game, but not good for such a large scale).

daedalus-templarius wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote: Well, Its because Halo is lower tech then 40k.

Please, explain this to me?

As I explained they are simply less advanced in terms of military technology, while the mainstay of Halo Humanity is the assault rifle, which is chambered in 7.62 NATO, the IG uses the Lasgun, which is generally portrayed as equal to or superior to modern rifles in terms of damage, but is extremely reliable, the bolter on the other hand is less reliable, but getting shot by one is like getting shot by a 14.5mm machinegun round, it will kill a normal human outright, and will punch through almost any body armour, a heavy bolter is more akin to a full fledged autocannon round than machinegun (the closest equivalent to an HMG in WH40K is the heavy stubber, which has inferior damage and penetration to a heavy bolter by far). Regular power armour requires dedicated AT weapons (Lascannon, Krak Missiles) or specialized anti-power armour weapons (Hot-shot Lasgun, that special Sternguard ammo, plasma guns could go either way) to be defeated without relying on volume fire. Overall, Spartans and Marines simply have inferior equipment to Astartes and Guardsmen. This doesn't include rarer equipment such as terminator armour, artificer armour, or storm shields, which offer a whole different level of protection.

Master Chief may have the statline of an Assassin, but hes a huge badass who fights entire armies on his own. Generic Spartans are no where near as elite, and they LOST their war with the covenant....

Honestly I think Spartans are most comparable to Battle Sisters. Human Strength and Toughness, good training, and great armor.

Buttons wrote:
As I explained they are simply less advanced in terms of military technology, while the mainstay of Halo Humanity is the assault rifle, which is chambered in 7.62 NATO, the IG uses the Lasgun, which is generally portrayed as equal to or superior to modern rifles in terms of damage, but is extremely reliable, the bolter on the other hand is less reliable, but getting shot by one is like getting shot by a 14.5mm machinegun round, it will kill a normal human outright, and will punch through almost any body armour, a heavy bolter is more akin to a full fledged autocannon round than machinegun (the closest equivalent to an HMG in WH40K is the heavy stubber, which has inferior damage and penetration to a heavy bolter by far). Regular power armour requires dedicated AT weapons (Lascannon, Krak Missiles) or specialized anti-power armour weapons (Hot-shot Lasgun, that special Sternguard ammo, plasma guns could go either way) to be defeated without relying on volume fire. Overall, Spartans and Marines simply have inferior equipment to Astartes and Guardsmen. This doesn't include rarer equipment such as terminator armour, artificer armour, or storm shields, which offer a whole different level of protection.

Trust me, I'm very familiar with what a bolter is capable of; although in fluff it certainly seems much more effective than it is on the tabletop.

As for dealing with terminator armor and artificer armor, you're right; I don't think a AR or Battle Rifle would cut it. But they have railguns, lasers (equiv lascannon but more mobile), plasma weaponry, etc. I'm not saying it wouldn't be difficult, but those things wouldn't be a total foil to their effective weaponry. Storm Shields are totally badass though; they'd have a hard as hell time getting around that sans flanking.

akaean wrote:Master Chief may have the statline of an Assassin, but hes a huge badass who fights entire armies on his own. Generic Spartans are no where near as elite, and they LOST their war with the covenant....

Honestly I think Spartans are most comparable to Battle Sisters. Human Strength and Toughness, good training, and great armor.

Human strength, but they can punch apart tanks? I don't understand.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Buttons wrote:
As I explained they are simply less advanced in terms of military technology, while the mainstay of Halo Humanity is the assault rifle, which is chambered in 7.62 NATO, the IG uses the Lasgun, which is generally portrayed as equal to or superior to modern rifles in terms of damage, but is extremely reliable, the bolter on the other hand is less reliable, but getting shot by one is like getting shot by a 14.5mm machinegun round, it will kill a normal human outright, and will punch through almost any body armour, a heavy bolter is more akin to a full fledged autocannon round than machinegun (the closest equivalent to an HMG in WH40K is the heavy stubber, which has inferior damage and penetration to a heavy bolter by far). Regular power armour requires dedicated AT weapons (Lascannon, Krak Missiles) or specialized anti-power armour weapons (Hot-shot Lasgun, that special Sternguard ammo, plasma guns could go either way) to be defeated without relying on volume fire. Overall, Spartans and Marines simply have inferior equipment to Astartes and Guardsmen. This doesn't include rarer equipment such as terminator armour, artificer armour, or storm shields, which offer a whole different level of protection.

Trust me, I'm very familiar with what a bolter is capable of; although in fluff it certainly seems much more effective than it is on the tabletop.

As for dealing with terminator armor and artificer armor, you're right; I don't think a AR or Battle Rifle would cut it. But they have railguns, lasers (equiv lascannon but more mobile), plasma weaponry, etc. I'm not saying it wouldn't be difficult, but those things wouldn't be a total foil to their effective weaponry. Storm Shields are totally badass though; they'd have a hard as hell time getting around that sans flanking.

Still, in order to punch through such equipment, Spartans require heavy weapons, both railguns and spartan lasers can't really be grabbed by a normal man and carried around on their back during battle, while the Imperium has infantry weapons (although frequently dangerous to the user and difficult to produce) that can punch through power armour, whether it is a hot-shot lasgun, vengence bolter shells, or a plasma gun.

Buttons wrote:
Still, in order to punch through such equipment, Spartans require heavy weapons, both railguns and spartan lasers can't really be grabbed by a normal man and carried around on their back during battle, while the Imperium has infantry weapons (although frequently dangerous to the user and difficult to produce) that can punch through power armour, whether it is a hot-shot lasgun, vengence bolter shells, or a plasma gun.

I agree.

In a skirmish between UNSC Marines backed by Spartans, and Imperial Guard backed by Space Marines; I have no doubt in my mind that the IoM would stomp all over the UNSC.

However, I have been angling my argument towards the individual capability of a Spartan on the battlefield, and what he/she would be capable of bringing to the table. Also, I don't think the technological barrier to be as significant as some do; but the deployment and capability of the IoM in that regard, as you stated, is superior.

Plasma weaponry I'd probably say is broadly similar, in terms of how it performs in the fluff of both series, and can be used by regular grunts. However, they'd have to loot a covenant weapons depot before the battle Pretty sure shooting an AR at a Terminator armor'd Space Marine would be effectively the same as shooting at a Hunter in Halo, and by that I mean it would do nothing but plink off.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Buttons wrote:
As I explained they are simply less advanced in terms of military technology, while the mainstay of Halo Humanity is the assault rifle, which is chambered in 7.62 NATO, the IG uses the Lasgun, which is generally portrayed as equal to or superior to modern rifles in terms of damage, but is extremely reliable, the bolter on the other hand is less reliable, but getting shot by one is like getting shot by a 14.5mm machinegun round, it will kill a normal human outright, and will punch through almost any body armour, a heavy bolter is more akin to a full fledged autocannon round than machinegun (the closest equivalent to an HMG in WH40K is the heavy stubber, which has inferior damage and penetration to a heavy bolter by far). Regular power armour requires dedicated AT weapons (Lascannon, Krak Missiles) or specialized anti-power armour weapons (Hot-shot Lasgun, that special Sternguard ammo, plasma guns could go either way) to be defeated without relying on volume fire. Overall, Spartans and Marines simply have inferior equipment to Astartes and Guardsmen. This doesn't include rarer equipment such as terminator armour, artificer armour, or storm shields, which offer a whole different level of protection.

Trust me, I'm very familiar with what a bolter is capable of; although in fluff it certainly seems much more effective than it is on the tabletop.

As for dealing with terminator armor and artificer armor, you're right; I don't think a AR or Battle Rifle would cut it. But they have railguns, lasers (equiv lascannon but more mobile), plasma weaponry, etc. I'm not saying it wouldn't be difficult, but those things wouldn't be a total foil to their effective weaponry. Storm Shields are totally badass though; they'd have a hard as hell time getting around that sans flanking.

akaean wrote:Master Chief may have the statline of an Assassin, but hes a huge badass who fights entire armies on his own. Generic Spartans are no where near as elite, and they LOST their war with the covenant....

Honestly I think Spartans are most comparable to Battle Sisters. Human Strength and Toughness, good training, and great armor.

Human strength, but they can punch apart tanks? I don't understand.

No their defiantly marine strength.

As for covenaunt plasma, its weaker then Imperial. If covenant plasma hits a man, he can live through it. If Imperial Plasma hits a man, well, all you got left is ash. The basis of IoM tech is from the DAT. They use STC's to make the current tech, but its still highly advanced. Flak armor (the cardboard armor of the universe) can stop a .50 cal round (the same round used in Halo UNSC Sniper) which would establish the sniper rifle is only AP 6. Carapace is even better since it can stop 20mm high velocity grenade. Wh40k tech is so over the top its almost Overpowerd against everything in Sci-Fi.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
No their defiantly marine strength.

As for covenaunt plasma, its weaker then Imperial. If covenant plasma hits a man, he can live through it. If Imperial Plasma hits a man, well, all you got left is ash. The basis of IoM tech is from the DAT. They use STC's to make the current tech, but its still highly advanced. Flak armor (the cardboard armor of the universe) can stop a .50 cal round (the same round used in Halo UNSC Sniper) which would establish the sniper rifle is only AP 6. Carapace is even better since it can stop 20mm high velocity grenade. Wh40k tech is so over the top its almost Overpowerd against everything in Sci-Fi.

Not in the fluff; it melts through Spartan armor. Its the same plasma; Imperial plasma isn't 'better'. On lengendary, plasma kills marines almost instantly in game if that is a comparison you're looking for.

So, you're equating the power of the UNSC sniper rifle because of the round it uses which is the same size as a round that exists in 40k on a gun that the game rules allow 5+ to save; barring any technical innovation they've made with their sniper ANTI-MATERIAL rounds (that can shoot through tanks). This is possibly the most absurd reasoning I've ever heard.

Discussion with you is useless, you merely perform mental gymnastics to get around every point I am making. Next you will say that the Spartan Laser, that can blow up covenant tanks (which are based on Forerunner tech which is more advanced than IoM) can't kill a Space Marine because their armor is newer/better tech so can obviously stop Spartan Lasers but not Lascannons.

Ridiculous.

Also spell better when you're calling people out and telling them they are wrong.

akaean wrote:Master Chief may have the statline of an Assassin, but hes a huge badass who fights entire armies on his own. Generic Spartans are no where near as elite, and they LOST their war with the covenant....

Honestly I think Spartans are most comparable to Battle Sisters. Human Strength and Toughness, good training, and great armor.

You might want to research some of the Halo fluff, friend. =P

Both Spartan Mjolnir Armour and Power Armour use powered servos to enhance the strength of the user.

The Power Armour was originally created for moving spaceship parts. It has a multi-tonne load capacity, even through the skimming-down it's gone through, and is roughly 4 times the weight of the Mjolnir.

The Mjolnir Armour has ~2tonne lift+move capacity, less than half what the power armour has. However, it's much faster than even the power armour's black carapace interface, simply because less of its power has to go into moving itself. Space Marines have a 20km/h march speed, with a 40km/h rush. Spartans have a 20km/h march speed and can move as fast as their servos can push them - Kelly, the fastest, is recorded as moving as much as 90km/h for extended periods, while the chief can move at 60km/h for sprints of up to 10 seconds.

This is SIMPLY BECAUSE THE MJOLNIR HAS LESS MOMENTUM WHEN MOVING, AND LESS FORCE IS REQUIRED RELATIVE TO MOMENTUM IN ORDER TO CHANGE DIRECTIONS.

NOW

If we are placing multi-tonne-moving 100kilo 100km/h hits at S4, we HAVE to place couple-tonne-moving 25kilo 100km/h hits at S3.5, assuming logarithmic energy growth each Tier of S (i.e. if you want to make sense at all, ever, anywhere). Humans are S2.25 in this case, based on a 3kilo hand and a 60km/h hit. Rounding up each time as the rules tell us to, we have S4, and S3. Putting out 100-4,00 times the force of a human each punch warrants you +1S. Getting angry and running while putting out the same amount of force warrants another +1S. Alternatively, in 40K everyone is super-saiyans and when they furious charge, they gain ~32 times their power for a short while.

If you want to start diverging from this sort of thinking in order to use examples with no basis in any sort of actual, logical comparison - instead opting to compare crabs to bananas to bowties - you are welcome to continue, and indeed enjoy, the madness it reviles in. Just don't pretend that what you're doing is justifiable to any sort of logic or rationality, because it's got no basis in either.

chrisrawr wrote:
NOW

If we are placing multi-tonne-moving 100kilo 100km/h hits at S4, we HAVE to place couple-tonne-moving 25kilo 100km/h hits at S3.5, assuming logarithmic energy growth each Tier of S (i.e. if you want to make sense at all, ever, anywhere). Humans are S2.25 in this case, based on a 3kilo hand and a 60km/h hit. Rounding up each time as the rules tell us to, we have S4, and S3. Putting out 100-4,00 times the force of a human each punch warrants you +1S. Getting angry and running while putting out the same amount of force warrants another +1S. Alternatively, in 40K everyone is super-saiyans and when they furious charge, they gain ~32 times their power for a short while.

If you want to start diverging from this sort of thinking in order to use examples with no basis in any sort of actual, logical comparison - instead opting to compare crabs to bananas to bowties - you are welcome to continue, and indeed enjoy, the madness it reviles in. Just don't pretend that what you're doing is justifiable to any sort of logic or rationality, because it's got no basis in either.

This just makes me with 40k was D10 at least.

Also, CRABS ARE BETTER THAN BANANAS!

daedalus-templarius wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
No their defiantly marine strength.

As for covenaunt plasma, its weaker then Imperial. If covenant plasma hits a man, he can live through it. If Imperial Plasma hits a man, well, all you got left is ash. The basis of IoM tech is from the DAT. They use STC's to make the current tech, but its still highly advanced. Flak armor (the cardboard armor of the universe) can stop a .50 cal round (the same round used in Halo UNSC Sniper) which would establish the sniper rifle is only AP 6. Carapace is even better since it can stop 20mm high velocity grenade. Wh40k tech is so over the top its almost Overpowerd against everything in Sci-Fi.

Not in the fluff; it melts through Spartan armor. Its the same plasma; Imperial plasma isn't 'better'. On lengendary, plasma kills marines almost instantly in game if that is a comparison you're looking for.

Spartan plasma =/= 40K plasma.

So, you're equating the power of the UNSC sniper rifle because of the round it uses which is the same size as a round that exists in 40k on a gun that the game rules allow 5+ to save; barring any technical innovation they've made with their sniper ANTI-MATERIAL rounds (that can shoot through tanks). This is possibly the most absurd reasoning I've ever heard.

A sniper rifle, for all intents and purposes, is a sniper rifle. Only one different type of sniper rifle is distinguished in 40K (exitus), and that's only because it has special ammo. A sniper is a sniper.

Discussion with you is useless, you merely perform mental gymnastics to get around every point I am making. Next you will say that the Spartan Laser, that can blow up covenant tanks (which are based on Forerunner tech which is more advanced than IoM) can't kill a Space Marine because their armor is newer/better tech so can obviously stop Spartan Lasers but not Lascannons.

Prove it is more advanced than imperial tech. Oh wait, you can't, because there is no comparable scale.

Ridiculous.

You are, rather.

Also spell better when you're calling people out and telling them they are wrong.

Well, at least your heart is in the right place on that front.

liquidjoshi wrote:
Spartan plasma =/= 40K plasma.

liquidjoshi wrote:
Prove it is more advanced than imperial tech. Oh wait, you can't, because there is no comparable scale.

Your logical fallacies are cavernous. In the same post even.

lol.

Anyway, dunno where the idea that normal people can't use spartan lasers? Sargeant Johnson was effortlessly running around using a spartan laser at the end of Halo 3.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

liquidjoshi wrote:
Spartan plasma =/= 40K plasma.

liquidjoshi wrote:
Prove it is more advanced than imperial tech. Oh wait, you can't, because there is no comparable scale.

Your logical fallacies are cavernous.

No worse than yours.

And besides, I'm still right. Spartan plasma =/= 40K plasma. Even if you can't compare them, odds are they are not equal. I'm sure someone can compare them. Actually, I think I'll give it a shot.

Assuming a sniper rifle is a universally equal weapon (S:X AP6, etc), we can see the shields on a Spartan can withstand multiple hits from a covenant plasma weapon, while it cannot take a hit from a S:X AP 6 weapon. Therefore a Covenant/ Spartan/ HALO plasma weapon is shown to be sufficiently weaker than the S:7 AP:2 40K plasma weaponry.

Not only did I prove imperial tech is MORE advanced, I also proved that 40K plasma is better than HALO plasma. All from the idiot that had "Cavernous logical flaws".

Now, I doubt that I have to remind you about rule 1. But If I were you, I'd leave before someone who really knows what they're talking about comes along and blows you out of the water.

Have a nice day.

You didn't prove it because by your own admission your equation is based off of an assumption. What makes you think that Sniper rifles are universally equal? In Contact: Harvest, Sargent Johnson explains that the sniper rifle he's using launches rounds that move at some crazy velocity like mach 50, and the round was powerful enough to punch through two skyscrapers and still hit its target with enough force to make the guy literally explode and cover a hundred foot radius in gore. Does that sound like its comparable to the sniper rifles we see in WH40K, or most fiction for that matter?

Furthermore, you're using game mechanics to attempt to prove your point. The game's mechanics do not accurately represent the fluff in either universe.

liquidjoshi wrote:

And besides, I'm still right. Spartan plasma =/= 40K plasma. Even if you can't compare them, odds are they are not equal. I'm sure someone can compare them. Actually, I think I'll give it a shot.

Not only did I prove imperial tech is MORE advanced, I also proved that 40K plasma is better than HALO plasma. All from the idiot that had "Cavernous logical flaws".

Now, I doubt that I have to remind you about rule 1. But If I were you, I'd leave before someone who really knows what they're talking about comes along and blows you out of the water.

Have a nice day.

You've proven nothing, just that you're comparing things that you just said were not comparable. You have no reasonable basis to claim that Halo's iteration of plasma is any different than 40k's, considering they look the same and act the same in the fluff and gameplay.

Rule number one doesn't include telling people they have cavernous logical fallacies in an argument they are attempting to make, I hope.

I wouldn't say I'm worried about 'someone who really knows what they are talking about and blows me out of the water', I'm fairly comfortable with my lore knowledge of both universes; certainly enough for this conversation. I'd look forward to an actual challenging discussion, because this certainly isn't it.

Edit: Good post Chrisrawr, agree on it all.

Fire-arms in the 2500's in Halo use 400-year-old designs pulled from libraries because there hadn't been any human wars requiring them for that long. The advances found from basically our weapons to the weapons found near 2556 happened entirely within their last 50 someodd years. In the novels, forerunner tech had been heavily modified and incorporated as well, meaning Halo Tech at its 'current' is closer to old ones tech than it is to dark ages tech. It's simply the scale that's different - Haloverse might be able to field an armada of ships that are each immensely powerful, but 40K can field hundreds of ships to their one, and though each ship in Haloverse is nigh irreplacable, 40K has the backing to pump out thousands more.

tl;dr tech levels have declined since the DAoM. There are no legions of titans. There are no worldships. There is no warp-access tech in the IoM. It all died when the Emperor's unrelenting scientific progress ceased to be the foundation for the Imperium's power. With this in mind, and the advances made in Haloverse tech via forerunners, the best of halotech is probably better than the best of IoM 40ktech - as evidenced in the newer books - but the average for IoM is much higher than halotech, as evidenced by the ability to give powerful plasma guns to rank-and-file troops.

Stating that the lasgun is capable of blowing limbs off is, again, not a great example, because it has been depicted as bouncing off of reflective surfaces, metals, and even ferroconcrete. It doesn't do well against any kind of energy dispersant shields and it doesn't do well against ablatives. it is VERY MUCH an anti-personnel weapon, and should not be misconstrued into being effective against shields or armour.

Finally, again, after all of this, the base issue is: There is no way to create a statline for the spartan, in comparison to both guardsmen and marines, without first having guardsmen and marines standardized in relation to each other. Since this cannot be done without fractional stats if the human-3 and marine-4 are to be kept - and since people seem to be unwilling to accede that, since they were trained for different roles, they will have different tactical strengths - then there is no possible way to accurately portray an attributal difference between the three that will please everyone.

tltl;drdr - The game is bad when it comes to representing fluff-accuracy, please stop pretending that 4-stats are any good at all because they aren't. Please stop asserting that 4-stats represent space marines because they don't. Please stop asserting that the differences between 40k and halo tech are that vast because they aren't. Please recognize that, while 40k is ott, it's mostly its scale and diversity, rather than its tech, that makes it so. Please recognize that, while the DaOM imperium could handily stomp all but 3 or 4 fictional universes (2 of which, I might add, are hard-scifi and much less inconsistent than 40K), we are in the 41st millenium and our legions of titans are gone. Please recognize that space marines and spartans both have fairly solid canon physical stats, and that these stats are not too far apart if you want to represent them statistically using any sort of logarithmic, exponential, or even direct scale.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Buttons wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:So, don't forget Spartans can punch through tanks. How are you going to represent that if they are only S4?

By having them punch tanks. All attacks are resolved against the rear armour meaning S4 can easily glance a vehicle with AV10 rear (almost all vehicles sans Monoliths, Land Raiders, and some types of Leman Russ) to death. A squad with 20 attacks, all hit, 3.333 glances, depletes the hull points of any vehicle sans Monoliths and Land Raiders. They sure as hell shouldn't be given str 6 or str 8, since it blows their power against infantry way out of proportion.

Well, Spartan's don't operate in squads of 5. They would likely each be an Independent character/character. Space Marine strength should be higher anyway, imo.

You really sure about that? other than late in the war when their numbers are down, there isnt a lot of examples of them operating solely alone (not counting the teacher whos name i forget in ghosts of onyx)

doc1234 wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Buttons wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:So, don't forget Spartans can punch through tanks. How are you going to represent that if they are only S4?

By having them punch tanks. All attacks are resolved against the rear armour meaning S4 can easily glance a vehicle with AV10 rear (almost all vehicles sans Monoliths, Land Raiders, and some types of Leman Russ) to death. A squad with 20 attacks, all hit, 3.333 glances, depletes the hull points of any vehicle sans Monoliths and Land Raiders. They sure as hell shouldn't be given str 6 or str 8, since it blows their power against infantry way out of proportion.

Well, Spartan's don't operate in squads of 5. They would likely each be an Independent character/character. Space Marine strength should be higher anyway, imo.

You really sure about that? other than late in the war when their numbers are down, there isnt a lot of examples of them operating solely alone (not counting the teacher whos name i forget in ghosts of onyx)

Well they may be operating in a squad of like 6 in teams of 2; I'm just saying 5 probably wouldn't be standing all together at the same time.

The squads of 5 was gameplay balance so that you can't take too many special weapons at once; it's also the number of players on each team in the game.

This is why most people in the proposed rule section strongly stress the following statement:

Fluff does not equal gameplay

Yes, the 40k system is very strange and doesn't allow for a true, accurate depiction of what the modifiers truly represent. Yes, there are outliers and strange units that have contradictory fluff. That's all fine. What you need to do is come up with a reasonable stat line based on existing templates that function similarly.

This brings to me second point:

It is never a good idea to port in another universe into the 40k universe and try and come up with rules based on arbitrary fluff representations that truly aren't even consistent in one universe.

That being said, the first iteration was fine as a playable unit. What the rest of you are discussing is madness and will only descend into the deepest pits of insanity where you attempt to use math and other such real world logic to come up with a 'fluff accurate' unit in the confines of the 40k universe, where, you know, we have psykers, daemons, and alien races from another galaxy.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

doc1234 wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Buttons wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:So, don't forget Spartans can punch through tanks. How are you going to represent that if they are only S4?

By having them punch tanks. All attacks are resolved against the rear armour meaning S4 can easily glance a vehicle with AV10 rear (almost all vehicles sans Monoliths, Land Raiders, and some types of Leman Russ) to death. A squad with 20 attacks, all hit, 3.333 glances, depletes the hull points of any vehicle sans Monoliths and Land Raiders. They sure as hell shouldn't be given str 6 or str 8, since it blows their power against infantry way out of proportion.

Well, Spartan's don't operate in squads of 5. They would likely each be an Independent character/character. Space Marine strength should be higher anyway, imo.

You really sure about that? other than late in the war when their numbers are down, there isnt a lot of examples of them operating solely alone (not counting the teacher whos name i forget in ghosts of onyx)

Well they may be operating in a squad of like 6 in teams of 2; I'm just saying 5 probably wouldn't be standing all together at the same time.

Depends what you take as canon, not like they would be against working in large groups, the books have a few examples (attacking reach mid covenant invasion for example has i think 20-30 of them working in 2 teams)

chrisrawr wrote:The squads of 5 was gameplay balance so that you can't take too many special weapons at once; it's also the number of players on each team in the game.

wasnt talking about gameplay buddy

Blacksails wrote:This is why most people in the proposed rule section strongly stress the following statement:

Fluff does not equal gameplay

Yes, the 40k system is very strange and doesn't allow for a true, accurate depiction of what the modifiers truly represent. Yes, there are outliers and strange units that have contradictory fluff. That's all fine. What you need to do is come up with a reasonable stat line based on existing templates that function similarly.

This brings to me second point:

It is never a good idea to port in another universe into the 40k universe and try and come up with rules based on arbitrary fluff representations that truly aren't even consistent in one universe.

That being said, the first iteration was fine as a playable unit. What the rest of you are discussing is madness and will only descend into the deepest pits of insanity where you attempt to use math and other such real world logic to come up with a 'fluff accurate' unit in the confines of the 40k universe, where, you know, we have psykers, daemons, and alien races from another galaxy.

I AM fine with the original posted stats, not as a spartan in full mjolnir armour though. As a spartan III (i think ghosts of onyx, not 100% sure) yes they would work fine and id accept them (fluffwise its all i would accept, they're even referenced as being "disposable heroes"), and id be happy for a slightly statbuffed Sargent to work as a full spartan in name.

Think as a single allied unit, the originaly posted stats are fine as are, in a squad of say 5? With the option of buying a Spartan II with say +1 to the armoursave, and +1 to BS maybe? or something alonng the lines of that to give the unit some utility. Another use of something like that would maybe be to swap that invuln save for stealth (if used as S3s) with a 4+ save for the S3s
?

Logic can be applied to these things because we can model how they work well enough to wave away inconsistencies. You're assuming logic = real life. It doesn't have to be.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Not in the fluff; it melts through Spartan armor. Its the same plasma; Imperial plasma isn't 'better'. On lengendary, plasma kills marines almost instantly in game if that is a comparison you're looking for.

I wasn't using the Video Game. If i was, Spartans would be S 1 T1 Sv 6+ on Legendary, and S10 T10 SV1++ on easy.

So, you're equating the power of the UNSC sniper rifle because of the round it uses which is the same size as a round that exists in 40k on a gun that the game rules allow 5+ to save; barring any technical innovation they've made with their sniper ANTI-MATERIAL rounds (that can shoot through tanks). This is possibly the most absurd reasoning I've ever heard.

If you've read the rules for a sniper rifle it stats it can include a wide range of weapons, but they all fall into the same stat.

Discussion with you is useless, you merely perform mental gymnastics to get around every point I am making. Next you will say that the Spartan Laser, that can blow up covenant tanks (which are based on Forerunner tech which is more advanced than IoM) can't kill a Space Marine because their armor is newer/better tech so can obviously stop Spartan Lasers but not Lascannons.

The halowiki admits the spartan laser is slightly weaker then the missile launcher. As for the strength of the tanks, Covie tanks are extremely weak, You can take them out with a mounted machine gun from the warthog.

Ridiculous.
Also spell better when you're calling people out and telling them they are wrong.

This add no meaningful material for this discussion and the same can be said for you. We're clearly going to have to agree to disagree.


As please Note every body, I used the SCOUT as the base for the Spartan, They have roughly equivalent roles, equipment, and perceived stats.

chrisrawr wrote:tl;dr tech levels have declined since the DAoM. There are no legions of titans.

Yes their are. Look up the Collegia Titanica, which was formed after the DAoT by the way

There are no worldships.

I don't recall world ships in pre heresy fluff or even Pre- DAoT.

There is no warp-access tech in the IoM

Warp travel is the only way to travel the stars. So yes their still is warp-access tech

It all died when the Emperor's unrelenting scientific progress ceased to be the foundation for the Imperium's power

Incorrect, it ended during the age of Strife, and all current IoM tech is based off of STC's which where the ENTIRE technical knowledge of DAoT man

With this in mind, and the advances made in Haloverse tech via forerunners, the best of halotech is probably better than the best of IoM 40ktech - as evidenced in the newer books - but the average for IoM is much higher than halotech, as evidenced by the ability to give powerful plasma guns to rank-and-file troops.

I'd argue the Best IoM tech is better then Halotech. Even the base lasgun is probably the equal of the Covenant plasma guns, (I've always felt that their a weak weapon, and they do the same damage as a Lasgun does in the Fluff.)

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:So my brother and I where discussing Halo and he asked me what a Stat line of a Spartan would be. I thought about it for a bit and heres what I came up with.

WS: 4 BS: 4 S: 4 T: 4 INT: 4 A: 1 Ld: 8 Sv: 4+/6++

It was really hard deciding if they would be S/T 3 or 4 since a there isnt a scale for high 3 or low 4. So for now their on the low end of 4 but still a 4. WS 4 since they're trained in H2H. same for BS. Tho again I had a tough time for wither 3 or 4.

The save may sound off to Halo fans, but the UNSC is a lower tech then the Imperium. The Standard Flak vest can stop a direct hit from a .50 Cal machine gun. (what a Heavy Stubber is) Basic marine armor can't and I'm pretty sure ODST armor can't either, but I'm being generous. So basically the Spartan is a better WS/BS Scout with a 6++. I'm thinking maybe 13ppm.

Weagear: Battle Rifle: Str 3 AP - 24in Rapid Fire. or SMG/ Assault Rifle Str 3 AP - 18in Assault 2. Frag Grenades. CCW. Pistol ( Str 3 12in Pistol)

, Really Quick a Item of Flak Armor can't stop a .50 equivilent , same for the UNSC armor , ( spartan Armor can - Read " The fall of Reach " John 117 is hit by 20mm cannons on a AT aircraft , .50 cal = 12.7mm ) Generally , the Flak Armor is ment to Absorb ( wait for it ) Flak from explosives and is designed to distribute heat to minimize penetrative powers from a Lasgun , UNSC armor both for MArines and ODST's later in hte Human covenent war was designed with hte same goal in mind , to Distribute Heat to minimize Penetrating Powers of the Enemies Weapons . Now even if you argue that flak Armor can stop a .50 cal , the wearer would be immediately incapacitated , the shot would deliver enough Kinetic energy to Break every bone around the point of impact , if you are hit in the chest ,your organs suffer massive Hemorging . , Now the UNSC Standard Rifles fire roughly the same Equivilent to what the M14 Battle Rifle fires which is close to .308 . A .308 is capable of going though several cinderblocks in the Right conditions , I would say in an Equal Unit fight ( Platoon v Platoon ) the UNSC would have a Fighting Chance givine that 1) Their Firearms do not produce the " Stream" as lasguns do 2) Supeiror Training to most IG forces ( short of Stormtroopers ) Being that the UNSC is Trained on a very strict Regimented Doctrine 3) Given the " Age of Darkness" Is when the Majority of the Imperiums Tech was lost , the power pack on the Spartan armor is actually MORE efficant then the Space Marine Power Packs , Granted the Requirements are much differnt but the Space Marines have to change coolant cells every 25-60 Years ( Black Templars novel on Armegeddon also with the Crimson Fist on Ryans world ) where as Spartan Armor has never had to had it's power pack replaced , now in Terms of a Spartan vs a Space Marine , it stands largely in Favor of the Space Marine because of superior components in the Armor , but the Spartan would be FAR more Agile able to strike and PArry quickly . Im Not saying that it would be an Even fight with the UNSC vs the IG but they would have a fighting chance , now , I would Rate the Spartan Armor honestly a 4+ save because its components are FAR better then standard guard Equipment , ( keep in mind 6+ is Ork Armor = Leather Strappings ) and the energy Sheild of the Spartans would reduce the Strength of the Incoming attack ( by 2 Lets say ) and the AP on a roll of 6 to " - " Because the Energy Sheild is Designed ( Also in the Fall of Reach ) to Disperse direct weapons's impacts in reflecting the energy outward ( similar to how the Buffulo Mine Protection Vehical directs the Blast Away from the Under Carrage ) Over all in terms of Strength And Weapon skill i agree with but im thinking Initive would be closer to 5 ( keep in mind 7 is GeneStealer and normal Humans can kill them ) --- I would more so rather hope you consider this ( PASSED AIRBORNE SCHOOL !!!!! ) and i would how this helped a bit ,

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Not in the fluff; it melts through Spartan armor. Its the same plasma; Imperial plasma isn't 'better'. On lengendary, plasma kills marines almost instantly in game if that is a comparison you're looking for.

I wasn't using the Video Game. If i was, Spartans would be S 1 T1 Sv 6+ on Legendary, and S10 T10 SV1++ on easy.

So, you're equating the power of the UNSC sniper rifle because of the round it uses which is the same size as a round that exists in 40k on a gun that the game rules allow 5+ to save; barring any technical innovation they've made with their sniper ANTI-MATERIAL rounds (that can shoot through tanks). This is possibly the most absurd reasoning I've ever heard.

If you've read the rules for a sniper rifle it stats it can include a wide range of weapons, but they all fall into the same stat.

Discussion with you is useless, you merely perform mental gymnastics to get around every point I am making. Next you will say that the Spartan Laser, that can blow up covenant tanks (which are based on Forerunner tech which is more advanced than IoM) can't kill a Space Marine because their armor is newer/better tech so can obviously stop Spartan Lasers but not Lascannons.

The halowiki admits the spartan laser is slightly weaker then the missile launcher. As for the strength of the tanks, Covie tanks are extremely weak, You can take them out with a mounted machine gun from the warthog.

Ridiculous.
Also spell better when you're calling people out and telling them they are wrong.

This add no meaningful material for this discussion and the same can be said for you. We're clearly going to have to agree to disagree.


As please Note every body, I used the SCOUT as the base for the Spartan, They have roughly equivalent roles, equipment, and perceived stats.

chrisrawr wrote:tl;dr tech levels have declined since the DAoM. There are no legions of titans.

Yes their are. Look up the Collegia Titanica, which was formed after the DAoT by the way

There are no worldships.

I don't recall world ships in pre heresy fluff or even Pre- DAoT.

There is no warp-access tech in the IoM

Warp travel is the only way to travel the stars. So yes their still is warp-access tech

It all died when the Emperor's unrelenting scientific progress ceased to be the foundation for the Imperium's power

Incorrect, it ended during the age of Strife, and all current IoM tech is based off of STC's which where the ENTIRE technical knowledge of DAoT man

With this in mind, and the advances made in Haloverse tech via forerunners, the best of halotech is probably better than the best of IoM 40ktech - as evidenced in the newer books - but the average for IoM is much higher than halotech, as evidenced by the ability to give powerful plasma guns to rank-and-file troops.

I'd argue the Best IoM tech is better then Halotech. Even the base lasgun is probably the equal of the Covenant plasma guns, (I've always felt that their a weak weapon, and they do the same damage as a Lasgun does in the Fluff.)

Mental gymnastics.

Tappin' out guys.

BlaxicanX wrote:You didn't prove it because by your own admission your equation is based off of an assumption. What makes you think that Sniper rifles are universally equal? In Contact: Harvest, Sargent Johnson explains that the sniper rifle he's using launches rounds that move at some crazy velocity like mach 50, and the round was powerful enough to punch through two skyscrapers and still hit its target with enough force to make the guy literally explode and cover a hundred foot radius in gore. Does that sound like its comparable to the sniper rifles we see in WH40K, or most fiction for that matter?

Furthermore, you're using game mechanics to attempt to prove your point. The game's mechanics do not accurately represent the fluff in either universe.

Really quick actuall in Contact Harvets with Johnson his words were " Powerful Enough to go though 15 feet of Flesh and Bone " ......... thats more accurate to a mordern .50 cal sniper rifle .....if your gonna rage be smart about it , and Actually that particualr rifle you are refering to is a Railgun , with Explosive Squash Head rounds , Not a Sniper Rifle , simpliy a Antitank tool adopted to Antipersonel use