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Hey guys, Xen again
I've decided that I want to try and plan out a hybrid Bike/DP army for my SM.

Obviously, me being a complete noob and this my first army, I come asking for guidance in this matter. Are there any players out there who could help to at least give me some idea as to how I would field such an army.

I'm still quite inexperienced with Wh40k but I wanted to use Bikes as both a distraction and flanking meanwhile have my CC Assault Squad drop in close to the enemy and start hacking away at them.

Is this at all feasible or will I be sending my SMs to certain doom? If feasible, what are your recommendations?

Cheers

I run something just like this on occasion, but my variant uses ironclad dreadnoughts and thunderfire cannons. It works really well.

Your bikes can handle the meltas and plasmas, while your drop pod guys handle CC. It's best to use more than one pod if you're going to drop pod, I would suggest 3 as a magic number.

Something like bike captain, 3 bike squads, 1 scout squad, 1 tactical squad in a drop pod, 2 assault marine units in drop pods would work fairly well, just keep in mind you will have little in the way of anti-flier, unless you take 1 stormtalon and a defense line.

Nice, bikes and DPs, didn't consider that....

I myself am setting up a Bike army, but was unhappy with how the lists kept ending up. Will definately look into this!

As for how to run... Captain on bike is a MUST, Khan is sub-optimal now.
Off the top of my head, it would be good to take 2 FULL bike squads. so 8 men, 2 PGs, sargent's weapons, and an attack bike. i have PF + Meltabombs on my sarg, and the total runs up to 325. What i do, is combat squad the bikes, 5 bikes in one combat squad, and 3 bikes + attack bike in other. I have 2 PGs in the 5 man squad, and the MM attack bike and PF+MB in the other squad to hunt armour.
That should cover the bike half of the army.

I think sternguard in a drop pod would be awesome. Combi-Weapons to allow for anti-tank, and special ammo for Anti-Infantry. These guys are king of close range firefighting.
Alternatively, you can take assault squads. 10 men, 2 flamers, around 240 points(?) combined with the 6" disembarkation area, can set you up some nice flamer shots. But they will take a turn of shooting, and overwatch shots if you charge a unit stupid enough to not move away.
The good ol' tactical squad could be worth something too. It could potentially shut off paths / roads that the enemy right go down, helping to isolate parts of the board. Doubt it would be 'awesomely' good.

...More on this when i review my codex, and do some thinking.

I would go bikers for troops, then 3 elite choices in drop pods, if not taking a MotF as well.

I would look into scout bikers they will fit in with the drop pod and bikers theme very well.

The issue is how to deal with flyers with this sort of list.
Maybe Vulkan+attack bike squadrons could be the answer.

Zambro wrote:As for how to run... Captain on bike is a MUST, Khan is sub-optimal now.
Off the top of my head, it would be good to take 2 FULL bike squads. so 8 men, 2 PGs, sargent's weapons, and an attack bike. i have PF + Meltabombs on my sarg, and the total runs up to 325. What i do, is combat squad the bikes, 5 bikes in one combat squad, and 3 bikes + attack bike in other. I have 2 PGs in the 5 man squad, and the MM attack bike and PF+MB in the other squad to hunt armour.
That should cover the bike half of the army.

I disagree with this, on several points.

First, Khan is hardly sub-optimal. While Outflanking with the intent to assault is dead, Outflanking is significantly better for shooting units. And what are bikes best at? First, Hammer & Anvil board edges make Outflanking incredibly potent - short of huge amounts of terrain, you can get 12" MM shots on any vehicle on the board, 12" plasma on squad of your choice, etc. Further, something a lot of theory-players are neglecting is that positional damage is hugely important now, as you must remove models that are closest and in LoS - no more can your special / heavy weapons be the last models dead. I've put this in use in several games to kill critical models first, instead of ablative wounds. Further, glances on rear armor are a serious threat to many vehicles, meaning that any player that plays aggressively with your vehicles opens themselves up to being glanced to death by TL bolters from behind (just a bare bones 4+1 HB AB squad causes 2 HP on average).

Many people will argue that savvy opponents will simple move to negate your Outflanking, which is true to some extent. But between 12" move and threatening on 3 sides, it's a lot easier said than done. Also, while Combat Tactics itself was buffed, a lot of assault units and assault in general took a heavy nerf, so Combat Tactics will see less chances for its use pop up. Finally, in an edition where 5/6 of the missions are objective-based, giving the ability to Hit and Run to a scoring unit and having the final say on objective controlling/contesting even when you went first can be critical. I'm not saying Combat Tactics is bad, but I highly encourage you to consider both options. I was of the opinon that Khan was overcosted until I started using him, and since I tried him I've not wanted to go back.

Second, taking full squads of bikes is generally an awful idea. The biggest advantages of bike squads is that they can get 3 special weapons in a 5 man squad. This is a flexibility that no other troops choice in the C:SM codex has. If you're going to combat squad them anyways, just start with two squads in the first place and now you may buy extra weapons. Even if you're not going to buy anything additional, going with two squads means you can get two attack bikes. Compare the following:

Two Bikers, no upgrades: 50 points
Attack Bike, MM: 50 points

So, you trade a TL bolter for a smaller footprint, a MM, and a vulnerability to S10 ID. I think it's a pretty obvious trade to make, as often as possible.

I sat down and had a look, this is what i came up with:

1750
Captain, Bike, AA, Relic Blade - 180
Librarian w/ Bike - 135
Bike squad w/ +5 men, 2 PGs, PF, MB, Attack Bike: MM - 325
Bike squad w/ +5 men, 2 PGs, PF, MB, Attack Bike: MM - 325
Dreadnought w/ MM + ML - 115
Dreadnought w/ MM + ML - 115
10 man Sternguard w/ 10 Combi-Weapons - 300
3 DPs - 105
Stormtalon Gunship w/ Twin Linked Lascannon - 150

Aside from the questionable ability of a dreadnought with the new 6th edition rules (e.g. glanced to death, etc.), this maybe the best your going to get(?)

You don't need the libby on the bike in that list.

Furthermore why are you dropping shooting dreads? Just drop ironclads.

juraigamer wrote:You don't need the libby on the bike in that list.

Furthermore why are you dropping shooting dreads? Just drop ironclads.

That sir, are two very good points.

PF on sarges isn't nearly as good an option as it used to be, either.

Thanks guys! You've all been very helpful in this.
I look forward to any more tips, suggestions and/or strategies

I dont know how the points break down but may I suggest taking dark angels allies with samael for ravenwing bike squads(with attached land speeders I believe). I might be remembering incorrectly but scouting bikers with locater beacons might be powerful(then again I think scout bikers can get them so that could be another way to go as well

Ricter wrote: Second, taking full squads of bikes is generally an awful idea. The biggest advantages of bike squads is that they can get 3 special weapons in a 5 man squad. This is a flexibility that no other troops choice in the C:SM codex has.

This, like 10 more times.

This is the reason you take bikes. 6 man squads are about ideal. Scoring with some fat in there to absorb wounds. The whole point of a bike squad is a special weapons delivery system. If it can be scoring, great.

Listing out 2 10 man squads for 650 points while only netting you 4 melta / plasma guns and 2 attack bikes? No way. Drop down to 3 6 man squads, kit out your sergeants, and have at it.

I'm tempted by the Ravenwing configuration, 6 bikes with dual melta or plasma, plus a multi-melta attack bike. It also allows an easy switch to Ravenwing if they are ever any good.

However in 6th edition accumulation of casualties seems to happen so fast that those extra bodies don't count for much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In regards to the original poster, I would never take drop pods with assault squads. They can already deep strike with their jump packs, and they're far more mobile once they hit the ground.

Of course I wouldn't take Space Marine assault squads anyway.

If you want assault units consider allying Dante and 2 squads of Sanguinary Guard. 2+ armour, massed power weapons, furious charge and feel no pain if you buy a Sanguinary Priest. Either that or a unit of Death Company. They don't even need the Priest, and can be loaded up with power axes for the strength 6 killiness on the charge.

Something i'm contemplating running at a 1999pts tournament in a couple weeks:

Captain - 180pts.
-Bike, Arty, Thunder Hammer

Bike Squad (4+1) - 205pts.
-2x Plasma, Combi-Plasma, MM AB
Bike Squad (4+1) - 205pts.
-2x Plasma, Combi-Plasma, MM AB
Bike Squad (4+1) - 205pts.
-2x Plasma, Combi-Plasma, MM AB

Scout Squad (7) - 101pts.
-Snipers

2x Vindicators w. Dozer Blades
Thunder Fire Cannon

Space Wolf Allies:

Rune Priest w. Runic Armor - 120pts.
-Divination

Wolf Guard (9) - 242pts.
-8x Combi Plasma, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod

Grey Hunters (10) - 205pts.
-2x Plasma, Drop Pod
Grey Hunters (10) - 195pts.
-2x Melta, Drop Pod

Total: 1998pts.

Thoughts? Wolf Guard are used as my First Blood/Anti Death Star Remover. With Divination and the Primaris that's a potential 16 twin linked plasma shots! Muahaha! Scouts hang back covering a lone objective while my bikes take pot shots at 24" and are used to clear my back field. Drop Pod assault as normal.

I think it has some pretty solid potential.

Swap captain to a relic blade. His boost to ini is not something to be ignored, especially as he may be challanged.

Not sure about the vindis, kinda short range, and likely to be big targets.

Cant comment on the SW stuff

Relic Blade is an artifact of 5E, it's not as solid as it used to be. The loss of AP 2 hurts a lot, especially as many opponents are now loading up on 2+ specifically to take advantage of this. One of the best suggestions I've seen is power fist + lightning claw if you are looking to win challenges.

I dislike scout squads in bike armies. Their role is to kill high T targets, but that's something you already have plenty of, and they're not even particularly good at it. It sucks not having an objective camper, though.

I'd rather have meltabombs or no sarge upgrades instead of combi-plasma. You have the speed and mobility to be firing every turn, so your upgrades will see more use. You're not a drop pod squad that's relying on its alpha strike.

Your HS is identical to mine and I've loved it so far.

I like it, but found a problem, too much combi stuff on guys that don't need it.

Instead I'd say to do the following:

First change the bike captain to a powerfist, you're not gaining anything with the hammer.

Next change your bikes squads to all melta, you don't want to lose expensive bikes to gets hot wounds, and furthermore with their speed and the MM attack bike, it's much better synergy. Also remove the combi weapon from the sarge on the bikes, and use him and your extra bike to wound sink.

You can't use divination powers the turn you arrive, yet you are going to be putting him in with a drop pod of sternguard it looks like. Determine if you can wait to use his powers to buff your guys for another turn or not, but they malidiction of re-roll successful saves is pretty good...

Your wolf guard does not need a heavy flamer, it's completely against their setup and targets.

Your grey hunters need to switch to all plasma.

You can get away with not having the snipers, you have 5 troops and 2 can combat squad.

With this in mind, make one of the vindicators a SW one, and add another thunderfire cannon. If you have any points left over, which you should, put more combi plasma in the wolf guard unit and/or add one more bike to each of the bike squads.

juraigamer wrote:
I like it, but found a problem, too much combi stuff on guys that don't need it.

Instead I'd say to do the following:

First change the bike captain to a powerfist, you're not gaining anything with the hammer.

This is debatable. First off, the thunderhammer is much more imposing and looks better. If you have the extra 5 points, use it.
The thunderhammer does have uses against MCs and multi-wound creatures, however for the most part, I tend to agree a fist is just as good.

juraigamer wrote:
Next change your bikes squads to all melta, you don't want to lose expensive bikes to gets hot wounds, and furthermore with their speed and the MM attack bike, it's much better synergy. Also remove the combi weapon from the sarge on the bikes, and use him and your extra bike to wound sink.

This is questionable. It really depends on how you want to use your bikes. If there intent is to be suicide tank hunters, why even take bike squads? Take Attack Bike Squadrons with MM. Longer range and more MM shots. Meltaguns have a VERY short range. 12" just for strength 8 and 6" for double dice. This means you are going to be WAY up close and getting assaulted. If that is what you want, kit your sergeant out to at least have a chance of taking something with him before he goes.

If your intent is for these to be scoring, you are going to be dancing around at the 19" to 24" range. This means melta guns are usless. Take plasma. You may lose them to gets hot! but most likely you will not. You need to roll a 1, then a 1 or 2. It is not that bad. But, you will also be rolling alot of 3+s, followed by 2+s and killing marines and terminators outright. Plasma can still hurt light vehicles and it will tear up marines. Think of your bike squads as more of a stinging jab then a knockout punch. Because once they close in, they are not going to last long. They need to stay away and keep taking shots. This means you need ranged weaponry.

juraigamer wrote:
You can't use divination powers the turn you arrive, yet you are going to be putting him in with a drop pod of sternguard it looks like. Determine if you can wait to use his powers to buff your guys for another turn or not, but they malidiction of re-roll successful saves is pretty good...

Your wolf guard does not need a heavy flamer, it's completely against their setup and targets.

Your grey hunters need to switch to all plasma.

You can get away with not having the snipers, you have 5 troops and 2 can combat squad.

With this in mind, make one of the vindicators a SW one, and add another thunderfire cannon. If you have any points left over, which you should, put more combi plasma in the wolf guard unit and/or add one more bike to each of the bike squads.

I can't really comment to Space wolves.... so, uh.... sure. If you can take Biomancy, I would shoot for endurance. Put it on the squad with your captain so he gets a 5+ to ignore wounds and another 5+ to make sustained wounds go away.

I recommend that you at the very least consider scout bikers if you have a fast attack slot to spare. The rapid firing GL they can have (three of them actually) can be very effective and the cluster mines are able to do incredible amounts of damage. Meltabombs on the sergeant ain't a bad idea either. Having the scout and infiltrate rules open more ways to use them also. The downsides with them is just that their BS is 3 (except for the sarge) and they have a 4+ save.

gaovinni wrote:The downsides with them is just that their BS is 3 (except for the sarge) and they have a 4+ save.

The bigger downside is infiltrating units can no longer assault on turn 1. This alone pretty much makes scout bikes useless.

Save the FA slot for speeders, stormtalons, or attack bike squadrons.

Green is Best! wrote:

gaovinni wrote:The downsides with them is just that their BS is 3 (except for the sarge) and they have a 4+ save.

The bigger downside is infiltrating units can no longer assault on turn 1. This alone pretty much makes scout bikes useless.

Save the FA slot for speeders, stormtalons, or attack bike squadrons.

Why would you ever assault with scout bikers?

ruminator wrote:

Green is Best! wrote:

gaovinni wrote:The downsides with them is just that their BS is 3 (except for the sarge) and they have a 4+ save.

The bigger downside is infiltrating units can no longer assault on turn 1. This alone pretty much makes scout bikes useless.

Save the FA slot for speeders, stormtalons, or attack bike squadrons.

Why would you ever assault with scout bikers?

Against vehicles with their meltabombs but other than that... no idea, unless it's somekind of a desperate action.

ruminator wrote:
Why would you ever assault with scout bikers?

In 5th, it was common to scout move, then assault with scouts. Give the SGT a powerfist and/or meltabombs. If you went first, you autohit because the model had not moved.

Now.... not so much.

Focusing on melta for bikes makes sure they go after their targets and kill it. You do not want to mess with their goals, furthermore they aren't a suicide unit unless you don't know how to use bikes. 3x troop bikes running around with melta will blow tanks,and if shot simply fail your moral test and fall back, then hold your objectives in the rear.

Since you're going to be melta-ing vehicles for the most part, you don't have to worry about being assaulted around 90% of the time, since the unit inside can't assault unless they could have from their vehicle rules.

juraigamer wrote:Focusing on melta for bikes makes sure they go after their targets and kill it. You do not want to mess with their goals, furthermore they aren't a suicide unit unless you don't know how to use bikes. 3x troop bikes running around with melta will blow tanks,and if shot simply fail your moral test and fall back, then hold your objectives in the rear.

Since you're going to be melta-ing vehicles for the most part, you don't have to worry about being assaulted around 90% of the time, since the unit inside can't assault unless they could have from their vehicle rules.

Again, meltaguns put you inside 12". Most armies do not operate in a vaccum. Meltaguns, by their very range, force you to get in close making it a suicide unit. Granted, the new rules lower the risk of being assaulted, but does not remove it. Especially from neighboring units. And, a smart player is not going to shoot your bikes in order to let you autofail. An even smarter player might even block you in so you can't fall back.

And, what about terminators on foot? You want AP2 in order to kill them. Guess how far away you are in order to use them?

My point, again and again, has been that plasma allows you to use your bikes in a more versatile manner. Yes, they are less effective against high AV vehicles. But, the limited range of the meltagun forces you to either get in close or hang back where they are not in range. Plasma just gives you more options. With that being said, I usually field an all meltagun squad, but it is usually in a ratio of 2:1 or 3:1 versus plasma.

Hybrid Bike lists can be amazing. I've won a few Tourneys with them. How many points do you want to run?

Plasma works best at 12 inches, so your point is invalid, since if your only getting 1 shot off per gun when you can get two, it's not worth the cost.

Furthermore, plasma bikes have this funny habit of getting into 12 inches even when you don't think you're going to. The extra shot makes all the difference.

Oh and attack bike squads can't be troops.

juraigamer wrote:Plasma works best at 12 inches, so your point is invalid, since if your only getting 1 shot off per gun when you can get two, it's not worth the cost.

Furthermore, plasma bikes have this funny habit of getting into 12 inches even when you don't think you're going to. The extra shot makes all the difference.

Oh and attack bike squads can't be troops.

Invalid?
My whole point was that plasma works at 12-24", ideally at 19" where you cannot be assaulted. Yes, 2 shots are better than 1. But I have options with plasma that I do not with melta.
Now, with premeasuring, getting within 12" has only one person to blame.

I didn't say attack bikes can be troops. I just referenced them as a means to deliver more melta shots.

I would just run the scout bikers for the locator beacon. Getting your pods in exactly where you want them that first turn could make a big difference(and in other turns if they survive)

Deploy 24 away scout 12(staying 18 away I think), 2-3 more inches on the drop pod, then deploy out 6. puts you in melta range(potentially double tap on multi-melta) of any target. If scouts have to stay 12 away then it is within melta range for any gun. Also allows you to easily set up a forward base of operations.

juraigamer wrote:Focusing on melta for bikes makes sure they go after their targets and kill it. You do not want to mess with their goals, furthermore they aren't a suicide unit unless you don't know how to use bikes. 3x troop bikes running around with melta will blow tanks,and if shot simply fail your moral test and fall back, then hold your objectives in the rear.

Since you're going to be melta-ing vehicles for the most part, you don't have to worry about being assaulted around 90% of the time, since the unit inside can't assault unless they could have from their vehicle rules.

Yes, except for most assault units hiding in transports are now able to assault you - because people are either bringing them in open-topped vehicles (Dark Eldar or Orks) or they've got assault ramps (Space Marines). Sure, you're right that if they were in a Rhino or whatever they couldn't assault you, except the meta is shifting drastically away from using Rhinos and their ilk for assault troops precisely for that reason. Maybe it's 90% because players in your meta are slow to adjust, but that is going to be a very short-lived tactic. If your bike unit is going to melta an assault unit's transport, that is a suicide mission. Any savvy player won't give you the chance to use Combat Tactics and will simply mop you up in assault.