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I think rhinos will still see use, just now you have to plan a turn in advance. They also still work well as mobile cover and as ways to limit overwatch fire.

Leth wrote:I think rhinos will still see use, just now you have to plan a turn in advance. They also still work well as mobile cover and as ways to limit overwatch fire.

I'm not saying they won't. Rhinos will see plenty of use, but it will be for shooting units. Who will gleefully take advantage of you now being within 6".

Assault armies, in general, are avoiding transports like the plague these days, unless they have the magic words - assault ramps or open topped.

Hey everyone thanks for some great comments, to address a few points, bear with me i seem to have mis placed my glasses so this is typed through the narrowest of slits.


Plasma vs. Melta:

In my opinion plasma is where its at now. 2 shots at 12 or single shots that are still str 7 ap 2 are awesome! They also sync up much better with their Multi-melta attack bikes. I'm able to get the mileage out of my weapons at greater ranges which is also in turn keeping my bikes alive. Sure, on occasion, one or two get hot a game and i can't make an armor save, or there's the game i played last night where after turn 2 i had 1/8 left alive... but those are rare and the benefits greatly outweigh the risks.

Melta guns have a 12" range, meaning they're moving forward or they're doing nothing of value. Plasma has the advantage that when i do move within double tap range, i'm moving in for the guaranteed kill, usually by bearing overwhelming amounts of fire to remove threatening targets with authority. Which in turn brings me to one final point: At range i'm deadly, i can maneuver at will and have the room to apply pressure to my opponents force more freely than moving within a limited range. If only i had access to 36" guns like DE...


Vindicators:

Yes they're a threat, yes they're barely a mid-range weapon. But damn if they haven't made an impact in every game i've played in since 6th has dropped. Also an added bonus: if my opponent is focusing on my vindicators --- they're not shooting my much more valuable bike squads. And vindicators add that awesome shock and awe aspect to an already shocky force! In the end, they'll probably be phased out in favor of auto/las predators down the pipe as parking lots become rarer but for right now they're incredible.

On Bike Captains:

I've been debating back and forth on his equipment set up for quite sometime. Frankly, i'm still constantly guessing and changing his format every time i reevaluate my list.

Right now, the thunder hammer/power fist/power axe combo all seem like a waste. Why? I'll never be charging anything with a 2+ save. Its pointless in an army that has a plethora amount of AP 2/1 firepower and the speed to stay away from those type of targets.

Relic blade? Seems like an awful amount of points for +2 str and losing that attack bonus.

Which leaves me with the humble power weapon. But specifically the power lance. I get +1 str on the charge and AP 3, while maintaining my Ini 5. He's not meant to be the end all be all bad a$$ of close combat, but who in a bike army is? My bikes ONLY assault if i'm a) fighting a big blob that i can easily finish off in my opponents turn thus protecting the unit from another round of shooting. b) contesting/clearing objectives late game. and finally c) charging devastators and the like to remove the high profile threat where ap 3 is sufficient for a single round of close combat and 5 attacks at str 5 just feels better. Plus whats not to love about the power lance bike captain model with his top knot and fu man cu streaming through the air?


This list was simply a test to see how a drop pod/bike hybrid would look like on paper. I mostly just play bikes with some extra toys.

For reference this is the list i based the drop pod army from:

1750

Captain w. Bike, Artificer, Power Lance

Bike Squad (4+1)
-2x Plasma, Combi-plasma, MM AB
Bike Squad (4+1)
-2x Plasma, Combi-plasma, MM AB
Bike Squad (4+1)
-2x Plasma, Combi-plasma, MM AB
Bike Squad (8+1) --- captain here
-2x Melta, Power Fist, MM AB

Scout Squad (10)
-Snipes

2x Vindicators w. Siege Shields
Thunder Fire Cannon
Storm Talon Typhoon

Same basic principles. The melta squad acts as an easy squad for my captain to attach to, spear heading the assault and hopefully achieving line breaker. I still love my humble scout squads, although the idea of dropping them is becoming more attractive. If i could squeeze some points around... i don't know.

Hope that wasn't too crazy!

Cal

thelordcal wrote:Hey everyone thanks for some great comments, to address a few points, bear with me i seem to have mis placed my glasses so this is typed through the narrowest of slits.


Plasma vs. Melta:

In my opinion plasma is where its at now. 2 shots at 12 or single shots that are still str 7 ap 2 are awesome! They also sync up much better with their Multi-melta attack bikes. I'm able to get the mileage out of my weapons at greater ranges which is also in turn keeping my bikes alive. Sure, on occasion, one or two get hot a game and i can't make an armor save, or there's the game i played last night where after turn 2 i had 1/8 left alive... but those are rare and the benefits greatly outweigh the risks.

Melta guns have a 12" range, meaning they're moving forward or they're doing nothing of value. Plasma has the advantage that when i do move within double tap range, i'm moving in for the guaranteed kill, usually by bearing overwhelming amounts of fire to remove threatening targets with authority. Which in turn brings me to one final point: At range i'm deadly, i can maneuver at will and have the room to apply pressure to my opponents force more freely than moving within a limited range. If only i had access to 36" guns like DE...


Vindicators:

Yes they're a threat, yes they're barely a mid-range weapon. But damn if they haven't made an impact in every game i've played in since 6th has dropped. Also an added bonus: if my opponent is focusing on my vindicators --- they're not shooting my much more valuable bike squads. And vindicators add that awesome shock and awe aspect to an already shocky force! In the end, they'll probably be phased out in favor of auto/las predators down the pipe as parking lots become rarer but for right now they're incredible.

On Bike Captains:

I've been debating back and forth on his equipment set up for quite sometime. Frankly, i'm still constantly guessing and changing his format every time i reevaluate my list.

Right now, the thunder hammer/power fist/power axe combo all seem like a waste. Why? I'll never be charging anything with a 2+ save. Its pointless in an army that has a plethora amount of AP 2/1 firepower and the speed to stay away from those type of targets.

Relic blade? Seems like an awful amount of points for +2 str and losing that attack bonus.

Which leaves me with the humble power weapon. But specifically the power lance. I get +1 str on the charge and AP 3, while maintaining my Ini 5. He's not meant to be the end all be all bad a$$ of close combat, but who in a bike army is? My bikes ONLY assault if i'm a) fighting a big blob that i can easily finish off in my opponents turn thus protecting the unit from another round of shooting. b) contesting/clearing objectives late game. and finally c) charging devastators and the like to remove the high profile threat where ap 3 is sufficient for a single round of close combat and 5 attacks at str 5 just feels better. Plus whats not to love about the power lance bike captain model with his top knot and fu man cu streaming through the air?


This list was simply a test to see how a drop pod/bike hybrid would look like on paper. I mostly just play bikes with some extra toys.

For reference this is the list i based the drop pod army from:

1750

Captain w. Bike, Artificer, Power Lance

Bike Squad (4+1)
-2x Plasma, Combi-plasma, MM AB
Bike Squad (4+1)
-2x Plasma, Combi-plasma, MM AB
Bike Squad (4+1)
-2x Plasma, Combi-plasma, MM AB
Bike Squad (8+1) --- captain here
-2x Melta, Power Fist, MM AB

Scout Squad (10)
-Snipes

2x Vindicators w. Siege Shields
Thunder Fire Cannon
Storm Talon Typhoon

Same basic principles. The melta squad acts as an easy squad for my captain to attach to, spear heading the assault and hopefully achieving line breaker. I still love my humble scout squads, although the idea of dropping them is becoming more attractive. If i could squeeze some points around... i don't know.

Hope that wasn't too crazy!

Cal

That's a pretty good analysis. I'm thinking of running a Bike captain since 6th edition hit myself, but a little different -with a DP Tactical squad dropping down, along with a Dreadnought and a Land Speeder.

Well I agree with TheLordCal's assessment on most things, I differ on the biker captain and a lance. OK, I LOVE the visual it creates and it would make for a sick looking model. However, I still stand by a Thunderhammer or Powerfist for my captain. I understand you have a ton of AP 1/2 weaponry, but at some point,your captain WILL get locked in combat. There is nothing more frustrating than having the leader of your army unable to deal with another HQ. Any type of 2+ HQ will cause your captain to struggle.

My theory is the captain should only be in close combat where he is needed. And when he is needed, I want him to pack a big punch.

Ricter wrote:

juraigamer wrote:Focusing on melta for bikes makes sure they go after their targets and kill it. You do not want to mess with their goals, furthermore they aren't a suicide unit unless you don't know how to use bikes. 3x troop bikes running around with melta will blow tanks,and if shot simply fail your moral test and fall back, then hold your objectives in the rear.

Since you're going to be melta-ing vehicles for the most part, you don't have to worry about being assaulted around 90% of the time, since the unit inside can't assault unless they could have from their vehicle rules.

Yes, except for most assault units hiding in transports are now able to assault you - because people are either bringing them in open-topped vehicles (Dark Eldar or Orks) or they've got assault ramps (Space Marines). Sure, you're right that if they were in a Rhino or whatever they couldn't assault you, except the meta is shifting drastically away from using Rhinos and their ilk for assault troops precisely for that reason. Maybe it's 90% because players in your meta are slow to adjust, but that is going to be a very short-lived tactic. If your bike unit is going to melta an assault unit's transport, that is a suicide mission. Any savvy player won't give you the chance to use Combat Tactics and will simply mop you up in assault.

Unfortunatly if you've got a good biker player, they will have the firepower near by to finish off the contents of any deathstar carrying transport. As for orks, if they want to charge 5-6 bikes with 11 boyz and a nob they can go ahead, at best the nob will kill 2-3 marines. As for DE, same deal, their agonizer will kill 2-3 marines, you simply use combat tactics to fall back and if you don't make it, no loss. You can't think about bikes as if they are single shot missiles, there's always a plan when a good player is using them.

thelordcal wrote:Plasma vs. Melta:

In my opinion plasma is where its at now. 2 shots at 12 or single shots that are still str 7 ap 2 are awesome! They also sync up much better with their Multi-melta attack bikes. I'm able to get the mileage out of my weapons at greater ranges which is also in turn keeping my bikes alive. Sure, on occasion, one or two get hot a game and i can't make an armor save, or there's the game i played last night where after turn 2 i had 1/8 left alive... but those are rare and the benefits greatly outweigh the risks.

Melta guns have a 12" range, meaning they're moving forward or they're doing nothing of value. Plasma has the advantage that when i do move within double tap range, i'm moving in for the guaranteed kill, usually by bearing overwhelming amounts of fire to remove threatening targets with authority. Which in turn brings me to one final point: At range i'm deadly, i can maneuver at will and have the room to apply pressure to my opponents force more freely than moving within a limited range. If only i had access to 36" guns like DE...

I'm a big fan of plasma on the squads over melta. Melta basically turns them into a suicide squad all too often - being within 6" is often lethal for a bike squad. Instead, having 3 TEQ killing shots at 24" is very potent.

thelordcal wrote:Vindicators:

Yes they're a threat, yes they're barely a mid-range weapon. But damn if they haven't made an impact in every game i've played in since 6th has dropped. Also an added bonus: if my opponent is focusing on my vindicators --- they're not shooting my much more valuable bike squads. And vindicators add that awesome shock and awe aspect to an already shocky force! In the end, they'll probably be phased out in favor of auto/las predators down the pipe as parking lots become rarer but for right now they're incredible.

I've been pushing Vindicators since I've started playing bikes (hell, since I ran mech Vulkan in 5th) and have loved them every game. I think they're even better for bike armies since opponents naturally want to try to cluster to focus their power against your more mobile bikes - which the Vindicator punishes, heavily.

thelordcal wrote:On Bike Captains:

I've been debating back and forth on his equipment set up for quite sometime. Frankly, i'm still constantly guessing and changing his format every time i reevaluate my list.

Right now, the thunder hammer/power fist/power axe combo all seem like a waste. Why? I'll never be charging anything with a 2+ save. Its pointless in an army that has a plethora amount of AP 2/1 firepower and the speed to stay away from those type of targets.

Relic blade? Seems like an awful amount of points for +2 str and losing that attack bonus.

Which leaves me with the humble power weapon. But specifically the power lance. I get +1 str on the charge and AP 3, while maintaining my Ini 5. He's not meant to be the end all be all bad a$$ of close combat, but who in a bike army is? My bikes ONLY assault if i'm a) fighting a big blob that i can easily finish off in my opponents turn thus protecting the unit from another round of shooting. b) contesting/clearing objectives late game. and finally c) charging devastators and the like to remove the high profile threat where ap 3 is sufficient for a single round of close combat and 5 attacks at str 5 just feels better. Plus whats not to love about the power lance bike captain model with his top knot and fu man cu streaming through the air?

I still think the best outfit, if you have the points, is lightning claw + power fist. Gives you all the options you need, +1 A and looks cool to boot.

thelordcal wrote:Captain w. Bike, Artificer, Power Lance

Bike Squad (4+1)
-2x Plasma, Combi-plasma, MM AB
Bike Squad (4+1)
-2x Plasma, Combi-plasma, MM AB
Bike Squad (4+1)
-2x Plasma, Combi-plasma, MM AB
Bike Squad (8+1) --- captain here
-2x Melta, Power Fist, MM AB

Scout Squad (10)
-Snipes

2x Vindicators w. Siege Shields
Thunder Fire Cannon
Storm Talon Typhoon

I'm really not a fan of snipers, especially a max size squad. The full size bike squad makes me cringe - essentially, you can split that into two squads for 15 points, and you get an extra sarge, can buy more specials and another attack bike out of the deal. Worth it to me.

The Storm Talon has had mixed results for me. For opponents that are unprepared, it's great. But as it's the only flier and the only light armor piece you have, it'll receive a disproportionate amount of S5-7 firepower, and by itself it's just not enough target saturation. Further, fliers are likely only to get weaker and carry a big $ tag.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

juraigamer wrote:Unfortunatly if you've got a good biker player, they will have the firepower near by to finish off the contents of any deathstar carrying transport. As for orks, if they want to charge 5-6 bikes with 11 boyz and a nob they can go ahead, at best the nob will kill 2-3 marines. As for DE, same deal, their agonizer will kill 2-3 marines, you simply use combat tactics to fall back and if you don't make it, no loss. You can't think about bikes as if they are single shot missiles, there's always a plan when a good player is using them.

Except you're treating them exactly like they are single shot missiles - your ideas just don't hold up to the math or the fact that the meta is changing. It seems that many of your comments are still from playing lists from 5E. That's fine, as seen in tournaments, many people are still running their 5E lists. But that isn't going to last forever and suggesting that other people adopt that tactic is a losing strategy in the long run. This is a classic case of 'generals always fight the last war'.

So let's dissect your examples. First, you're suggesting that the Ork players are running truck boy mobs or DE warrior squads for assault purposes. Not really where the meta is going (Orks are running Battle Wagons more often or just footslogging/bikes, and DE aren't gearing their warriors to assault), but let's run with the Ork example.

Your overwatch fires first. 4+1 squad has 5 TL bolters in RF range and a MM. 10 bolter shots goes to 3.05 hits, 1.53 dead orks. MM gives us another .14 dead orks, for 1.67 total. The bikers attack first, getting 7 attacks, 4.67 hits, 2.33 wounds, 1.55 dead orks, 3.22 total (assuming they're WS3, T4, 5+ armor orks, I'm not sure their exact stats off the top of my head). 7.78 Orks get 31.12 attacks back, 10.37 wounds, 3.45 dead bikes. Nob gets 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 kills, for 4.7 dead bikes.

The Orks skipped shooting you, didn't have any burnas, and the bikes got the alpha strike. End result? ~200 point bike squad is wiped (or nearly, but regardless the squad is crippled) to kill a trukk and 24 points of Boyz. How is that not treating bikes like single shot missiles?

Now, let's look at plasma. Even at 23", you have a 2 S7 and 1 S8 shot. Plasma gets 1.33 hits, .67 pens, .33 explodes results. Melta adds .67 hits, .45 pens, .33 explodes. So, .66 explodes results - still a good chance to explode, and on average you can expect to destroy the truck through wrecked or explodes. Now, that same group of boys is 20" away from you - meaning they can't assault (where they want to be) and they can't even shoot you.

You're accusing others (implicitly) of not having a plan, but simply put the numbers are not adding up in your favor. Meltas belong on suicide squads, it's why the term 'meltacide' appeared in the first place.

Instead of thinking like a MW player, think like a general. Melta bike squads have support, and that support keeps them from getting "ganked", correct word?

Also mathhammer isn't anything but numbers. A general knows not to trust mathhammer.

Personally since I always have thunderfire cannons, 3 of them on the field, my melta bikes heading over to help my drop podded ironclads, my bikes have no problem at all. Your list makes 50% of your army, how you play it makes the other 50%, of course the rest is 100% up to the dice...

juraigamer wrote:Instead of thinking like a MW player, think like a general. Melta bike squads have support, and that support keeps them from getting "ganked", correct word?

Also mathhammer isn't anything but numbers. A general knows not to trust mathhammer.

Personally since I always have thunderfire cannons, 3 of them on the field, my melta bikes heading over to help my drop podded ironclads, my bikes have no problem at all. Your list makes 50% of your army, how you play it makes the other 50%, of course the rest is 100% up to the dice...

Yeah, I figured this is where you were going to go. In a game of hundreds of dice, thousands of points and dozens of stats you can't just stick your head in the sand and say, "Derp! Math is for silly-heads!" and expect to remain competitive.

Instead of actually addressing points and specific tactics, you're resorting to changing the situation and made up numbers, which amounts to exactly nothing substantial. Every situation you brought up I showed wasn't in your favor, despite your claims, so you kept changing the situation. Your method results in no useful tactical discussion, so I'll just leave it at that as this line of thinking has run its useful course.