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So I need to know this for modelling purposes (yes, really!), but I think this would still be the right section of the forums to ask this.

Are there weapons/psychic powers/angry squigs/etc in this game that do not allow taking invulnerable saves but still allow normal armour saves?

Look at chaos, they used to have some weapons that did that.

Out of interest how is this a modelling issue?

liturgies of blood wrote:
Out of interest how is this a modelling issue?

Because some models have a better inv save than regular save, and if such items do not exist, I can model the figure with any armour up to the inv save level and it won't ever matter. For example crusaders have a flak armour and storm shield. But if they always get their 3+ save or no save at all, I could model them with power armours just as well.

Shield breaker from a Vindicare assassin?

Nitros14 wrote:Shield breaker from a Vindicare assassin?

Aren't Vindi's shots AP1 though, he wouldnt get regular armor either?

Yeah, old necron pariaha's use to have them but the only thing to my knowledge now is a vindi assassin.

Crimson wrote:

liturgies of blood wrote:
Out of interest how is this a modelling issue?

Because some models have a better inv save than regular save, and if such items do not exist, I can model the figure with any armour up to the inv save level and it won't ever matter. For example crusaders have a flak armour and storm shield. But if they always get their 3+ save or no save at all, I could model them with power armours just as well.

Why not just use theproper models from the getgo?

Sheild breaker can take away an invul.

Otherwise there are no weapons (anymore) that I can think of which deny invul saves.

Everything in the game currently that denies invul. also denies armour (Jaws, Shield Breaker, etc.).

Nitros14 wrote:Shield breaker from a Vindicare assassin?

Dammit. Well, as I understand it, this still wouldn't affect single wound models, as at the point they lose their inv save, they're dead already.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Why not just use theproper models from the getgo?

C'mon, where's the fun in that?

A vindicare assassin's shield breaker still allows Cover, so it is entirely possible for a model such as a Crusader to lose its 3++ save, but survive, so that it has a 5+ regular.

Kiredor wrote:A vindicare assassin's shield breaker still allows Cover, so it is entirely possible for a model such as a Crusader to lose its 3++ save, but survive, so that it has a 5+ regular.

Yeah... true.

But Shield Breaker only activates when the wound has been allocated, so that is after the saves... except with mixed saves units... but this leads to a crazy situation of models with uniform saves getting their inv saves against Shield Breaker but models in mixed save unit not getting saves. That can't be right!

The Vindicare gets to allocate how he wants, so apart from LOS, which is a different thread, the shots would hit who you want.

I forget exactly what, but there is an ability (perhaps psychic power?) that forces you to reroll successful invulnerable saves. Then of course there's Entropic Strike from the Necrons - which would eat your normal armour away, but leave an Invulnerable save in place. That wouldn't look right if you're getting that "Invulnerable save" from the power armour that fluff-wise has just been eaten away, but rules-wise it would work.

Well, even if you define it this way, it's not WYSIWYG anymore if you do this conversion.

So it doesn't really matter. You're going away from WYSIWYG, so you can make their armours clown's clothing and arm them with pies if you want to. You'll still have to explain it and it still won't be allowed in tourneys.

The Dreadaxe from 3rd edition (3.5) chaos 'dex used to deny invulnerable saves, but not armour. Thats the only weapon I know of that has ever ignored an invulnerable but not an armour.

Old psycannons from demonhunters did. Null zone psychic power forces re-rolls of inv saves, which is as close as you are going to get.

Null zone! Thankyou, that's the one I was trying to think of.

Purifier wrote:Well, even if you define it this way, it's not WYSIWYG anymore if you do this conversion.

So it doesn't really matter. You're going away from WYSIWYG, so you can make their armours clown's clothing and arm them with pies if you want to. You'll still have to explain it and it still won't be allowed in tourneys.

Actually for most tourneys rule of cool will override WYSIWYG.
He still must be veeery careful to explain everything properly to all his opponents.

Astorath also requires you to reroll successful invulnerable saves but he has an ap3 axe. Guess 2+ is better then the 2++ in this case?

The Swarmlord also requires successful Invulnerable saves to be re-rolled. Of course as a MC his attacks are already AP 2, so...

HoverBoy wrote:

Purifier wrote:Well, even if you define it this way, it's not WYSIWYG anymore if you do this conversion.

So it doesn't really matter. You're going away from WYSIWYG, so you can make their armours clown's clothing and arm them with pies if you want to. You'll still have to explain it and it still won't be allowed in tourneys.

Actually for most tourneys rule of cool will override WYSIWYG.
He still must be veeery careful to explain everything properly to all his opponents.

In other words, needlessly complicating any future games.

St. Celestine, having two Invul saves, would still keep her 6++ if she ever lost her 4++ from a Shield Breaker round.

Zonthropes have a 3+ Invuln save when hit by a Shield Breaker round.

the necron portals in the monoliths(i forget what they are called) will just suck a model into it on a strength check, so no invul there, and the unit just gets taken off regardless of wounds. iirc

Things that remove from play deny Invun Saves.


Boon of Mutation
Gift of Chaos
Tesseract Labyrinth (i think)


stuff like that, as they don't cause wounds, they just happen

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:

Purifier wrote:Well, even if you define it this way, it's not WYSIWYG anymore if you do this conversion.

So it doesn't really matter. You're going away from WYSIWYG, so you can make their armours clown's clothing and arm them with pies if you want to. You'll still have to explain it and it still won't be allowed in tourneys.

Actually for most tourneys rule of cool will override WYSIWYG.
He still must be veeery careful to explain everything properly to all his opponents.

In other words, needlessly complicating any future
games.

Sorry, but if someone tells you what.a unit has for wargear and you can't remember that over a 2hr period, then that's on you. It's about as complicated as peeling a bananna. I'd rather dedicate the tiniest fraction of my attention to remembering what that unit has and play an army with some neat conversions, than play a waac army that was just clipped off the sprue and glued in the same pose.

Mortikye wrote: Sorry, but if someone tells you what.a unit has for wargear and you can't remember that over a 2hr period, then that's on you. It's about as complicated as peeling a bananna. I'd rather dedicate the tiniest fraction of my attention to remembering what that unit has and play an army with some neat conversions, than play a waac army that was just clipped off the sprue and glued in the same pose.

That's some awful presumptuous name-calling you have going on there, just because a player prefers to follow the WYSIWYG rules more closely you deign to label them WAAC and suggest that precludes conversions and fun modelling?

Drunkspleen wrote:

Mortikye wrote: Sorry, but if someone tells you what.a unit has for wargear and you can't remember that over a 2hr period, then that's on you. It's about as complicated as peeling a bananna. I'd rather dedicate the tiniest fraction of my attention to remembering what that unit has and play an army with some neat conversions, than play a waac army that was just clipped off the sprue and glued in the same pose.

That's some awful presumptuous name-calling you have going on there, just because a player prefers to follow the WYSIWYG rules more closely you deign to label them WAAC and suggest that precludes conversions and fun modelling?

I'd say it was pretty WAAC to let your opponent forget about that badass wargear, or that one of the guys in that tactical squad you just charged turns out to be Marneus Calgar, or whatever.
Common sense all round, I think.

You can't generalise when it comes to what's ok and what's not with WYSIWYG - as with many things, it depends on circumstances. If what the OP is suggesting was for just one unit, or for the entire army, then yes fine, it's probably going to be easy enough to remember.

However, if you have this unit with pseudo-not-really-power-armour, and also you have a unit of Wyches that are really Death Cult Assassins, and the Dreadnought at the back is Venerable although it's just a standard model with a racing stripe, and this Lysander model here with the symbols filed off is actually Arjac... well, you get the point.

Let's not let this descend into what is and isn't ok with WYSIWYG, that's not what was asked of us.