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So it 5th ed all MC attacks counted as power weapon attacks. However in 6th, every power weapon has it's own stats now (which is beyond bothersome and asinine in my opinion), but there is no mention of MC attacks as PWs, only the Hammer of Wrath and Smash special attacks. This is particularly cloudy for CSM Daemon Princes as they have no wargear aside from "one CC weapon" listed. So with all the other problems the CSM Daemon Prince has in 6th Ed, does he no longer have a power weapon attacks or did I overlook something?

In personal interpritation I feel like MCs should still have them, so myself and the folks at the FLGS have been treating MC attacks as AP 2 for simplicity, but I was wondering if anyone else had something definitive.

MC has Smash rule. Find it under the Special Rules section.

The Smash rule makes all their attacks AP2, unless they already have an AP1 weapon.

Also pretty sure that it says in the book monsters are ap2 at all times... Smash gives them double strength... They can go above strength 10

So in order to give my DPs "PW" attacks I have to cut them down to 2 attacks per CC?

Akirakill wrote:Also pretty sure that it says in the book monsters are ap2 at all times... Smash gives them double strength... They can go above strength 10

You cannot have a strength greater than 10. Also the rules for monstrous creatures and AP2 are under Smash not Monstrous creature.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tme0003 wrote:So in order to give my DPs "PW" attacks I have to cut them down to 2 attacks per CC?

No, all attacks are AP2, you can choose to half your attacks and double your strength.

tme0003 wrote:So in order to give my DPs "PW" attacks I have to cut them down to 2 attacks per CC?

Nope, the smash rule does two things:
1.) Makes all attacks AP2(unless they have an AP1 weapon)
2.) Allows them to make smash attacks

So an MCs attacks are always AP2 or better even if not making a smash attack.

See smash on page 42.

Yeah, I just read that, must have missed it the first few times I read that rule. Thanks everybody, I feel it's easy to miss stuff like this with all the new rules and re-writes.

Monstrous Creatures all have the Smash rule.
The Smash Rule means all attacks made by that unit hit at AP2.
The Smash Rule ALSO allows them to sacrifice half their attacks to double their strength ( and re-roll the to-pen dice ) for that round of combat.

i.e. My Cronos can make 2, Str5, Ap2 attacks -OR- My Cronos can make 1 Str10, Ap2 attack, and re-roll to-pen vs vehicles.

edit - in the time it took me to distractedly type this, people beat me to it. xD

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

tme0003 wrote:So in order to give my DPs "PW" attacks I have to cut them down to 2 attacks per CC?

Nope, the smash rule does two things:
1.) Makes all attacks AP2(unless they have an AP1 weapon)
2.) Allows them to make smash attacks

So an MCs attacks are always AP2 or better even if not making a smash attack.

See smash on page 42.

Does my Fateweaver count as having an AP 1 weapon because he has Bolt of Change?
Or no weapons but shoots anyway?
Remember the phrase here is "count as"

psyklone wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

tme0003 wrote:So in order to give my DPs "PW" attacks I have to cut them down to 2 attacks per CC?

Nope, the smash rule does two things:
1.) Makes all attacks AP2(unless they have an AP1 weapon)
2.) Allows them to make smash attacks

So an MCs attacks are always AP2 or better even if not making a smash attack.

See smash on page 42.

Does my Fateweaver count as having an AP 1 weapon because he has Bolt of Change?
Or no weapons but shoots anyway?
Remember the phrase here is "count as"

To clarify, everyone here meant "Close Combat Attacks are resolved at AP2". So, does your bolt of change attack at AP1 in close combat?

Bolt of Change is a ranged weapon not a melee weapon, hence does not count as a close combat weapon, so it cannot Smash.

or simply... No

nm

It actually matters for Lords of Change and Fateweaver since they have an AP 4 Power Maul from Soul Devourer, which becomes AP 2 since they're Monstrous Creatures.

Nitros14 wrote:It actually matters for Lords of Change and Fateweaver since they have an AP 4 Power Maul from Soul Devourer, which becomes AP 2 since they're Monstrous Creatures.

They don't have a power maul. Read the description again.

tme0003 wrote:So it 5th ed all MC attacks counted as power weapon attacks.

Just because I've been up the last 20+ hours...and drinking...I would like to point out that in 5th d MC attacks did not count as power weapon attacks. They just ignored armour, like a power weapon

So there are AP1 close combat weapons?
What are those?
Totally clueless to their existence here.

Necron warscythe is the first one that comes to mind.

There are a couple weapon types out there that ignore armor completely still.

Testify wrote:

Nitros14 wrote:It actually matters for Lords of Change and Fateweaver since they have an AP 4 Power Maul from Soul Devourer, which becomes AP 2 since they're Monstrous Creatures.

They don't have a power maul. Read the description again.

Alright.

The Daemon with Soul Devourer counts as equipped with a power weapon. In addition (and this is a seperate ability, it doesn't say the weapon does anything unique), the Daemon's close combat attacks cause instant death.

I admit the intent is debatable but the way the rule is written they have a power maul.

i understand the power maul reference since itas modeled with a staff and staves are power mauls. So use it at +2 str ap 4 or punch them for ap 2 instant death. your choice

Lungpickle wrote:i understand the power maul reference since itas modeled with a staff and staves are power mauls. So use it at +2 str ap 4 or punch them for ap 2 instant death. your choice

That's not what Smash says. Smash says that all close combat attacks are resolved at AP2 unless it's with an AP1 weapon. So it'd be +2 STR AP2 Instant Death.

Nitros14 wrote:

Testify wrote:

Nitros14 wrote:It actually matters for Lords of Change and Fateweaver since they have an AP 4 Power Maul from Soul Devourer, which becomes AP 2 since they're Monstrous Creatures.

They don't have a power maul. Read the description again.

Alright.

The Daemon with Soul Devourer counts as equipped with a power weapon. In addition (and this is a seperate ability, it doesn't say the weapon does anything unique), the Daemon's close combat attacks cause instant death.

I admit the intent is debatable but the way the rule is written they have a power maul.

No, really, that's not how it works. It has an additional rule, so it's an Unusual Power Weapon. It's a Power Weapon with additional rules.

No bonus to str, sorry. It's an unusual power weapon so it does not get the power maul bonus. It is still AP2 from smash, but it is not a maul

Why should it be unusual weapon? Soul Devourer gives 2 separated abilites to the deamon: a power weapon and the ability to wrench victims soul, no matter which weapon he actually uses. It doesnt say its the ability of the weapon itself.

The GK FAQ states that all nemesis force weapons are "unusual force weapons", so why didn't they write the same for the power weapon of the soul devourer gift? Because it isn't unusual.

A runic weapon isn't stated to be an unusual force weapon.
It however is an unusual force weapon due to having a cc special rule.

"A runic weapon always wounds Daemon models on roll of a 2+."
clearly modified weapon's rule.

"If a model suffers any unsaved wounds from Daemon's close combat attacks..."
an extra special rule for the daemon, the weapon isn't even mentioned

the phrasing is clearly quite different as to me

randomguy8891 wrote:"A runic weapon always wounds Daemon models on roll of a 2+."
clearly modified weapon's rule.

"If a model suffers any unsaved wounds from Daemon's close combat attacks..."
an extra special rule for the daemon, the weapon isn't even mentioned

the phrasing is clearly quite different as to me

Don't have a copy of the codex to hand but is that rule contingent on the weapon?

randomguy8891 wrote:"A runic weapon always wounds Daemon models on roll of a 2+."
clearly modified weapon's rule.

"If a model suffers any unsaved wounds from Daemon's close combat attacks..."
an extra special rule for the daemon, the weapon isn't even mentioned

the phrasing is clearly quite different as to me

That's because a Runic Weapon is actually a weapon while the Soul Devour is not. If you want to get technical like that then since Soul Devour is not a weapon at all it is not a Power Maul and you still don't get the bonus to str.

Phrasing mostly doesnt matter. Soul Devourer is stated as a "power weapon" that has an unusual property (can cause ID). Therefore it follows the UPW rules.

If the Daemon did not have the Soul Devourer (PW) would it still cause ID?