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Now that The Axe Mortalis debate is over and has been cleared up, what of the Glaive Encarmine? If it can be either a sword or an axe, can this be a maul or a lance? Can The Sanguinor have an axe?

I would like to think that both questions would be yes.

Seeing as how they only have rules specifically for swords an axe, I'm inclined to say those are your only options. Similar to frost blades/frost axes (though tbh those are different wargear entries in their own right).

A: Glaive Encarmines follow the rules as described in the Types
of Power Weapon section on page 61 of the Warhammer 40,000
rulebook, but also have the Master-crafted and Two-handed
special rules. They would therefore have the following profiles.
Range S AP Type
Glaive Encarmine - User 3 Melee,
(Sword) Master-crafted,
Two-handed.
Range S AP Type
Glaive Encarmine - +1 2 Melee,
(Axe) Master-crafted,
Two-handed,
Unwieldy.

Swords and axes only! So they explicitly defined them as either an axe or a sword. WHen they define a specific weapon type, we no longer need to bother with the 'further special rules' or 'unusual CCW rules' which means the implied choice of 'look at the model' is no longer allowed for that weapon.

So I'm not hearing a no about The Sanguinor carrying an axe...

If you use the GW stock model its sword. If you modify it, or build your own some people will claim MFA.

Am I allowed to make the argument that you could use an axe from the Sanguinary Guard kit and it's just converting?

Is it a Glaive Encarmines? If he has a Glaive Encarmines then that weapon can only have 2 profiles...

I think they specify because thats what the models are built with, but why if you convert your sanguinary guard to have a power lance is this not allowed? The rules on page 61 tell us to look at the weapon and determine what it is so if we make a lance or a maul why is this unacceptable?

Because the Glaive Encarmine has further special rules and wouldn't use the rules you're looking at anyway.

Because any power weapon with "further special rules" may never look at the model to see the type.

And also the 1.1 FAQ means that the glaive is no longer a power weapon so the rules for power weapons are not applied. They are explicitly power swords and power axes so the rules for swords and axes are applied.

Most weapons with "further special rules" now have explicit weapon types and do not allow you to model anything you want.

They don't have further special rules "Glaive Encarmines follow the rules as described in the Types of Power Weapon section on page 61 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, but also have the Master-crafted and Two-handed special rules."

Essentially they are just power weapons. I feel when they say "they would therefore have" implies these rules apply because thats what they were modeled with. If it was a lance then it would therefore have the rules of a lance. I see your side of the argument but I feel their might be room for a more broad interpretation.

ianJ253 wrote:They don't have further special rules...

Pages 39 and 43 of the 6th edition rulebook clearly shows that your assertion is wrong.

Dandruff wrote:
Now that The Axe Mortalis debate is over and has been cleared up, what of the Glaive Encarmine? If it can be either a sword or an axe, can this be a maul or a lance? Can The Sanguinor have an axe?

I would like to think that both questions would be yes.

GW spelled out the exact rules for the 2 Glaives that they sell. If you wanted to give up the AP3 power sword or AP2 power axe for a lance or mace, I doubt anyone would argue.
Seriously, who's going to call you a cheater for taking a worse weapon options?

-Matt

How is my assertion wrong? The FAQ says they follow the rules of power weapons.

Also how was there ever a debate in the first place. All of the rules in question were universal from the rule book. Two handed is a trait not something special. They should have always been played as what they looked like. Now the whole characters changing their weapons from power weapon A to power weapon B is making a choice from the start all of which had benefits and problems.

I agree with Hawaii Matt. It's not like taking one of the other weapons is making you more powerful. Each power weapon has it's ups and downs.

I would call you a cheater as you are breaking the rules.

It does not say they follow the rules for power weapons, theynfollowmthe rules for thentwomtypes of weapons, axe and sword.

Besides,mic they did follow the rules for power weapons, they have "further special rules" which means you may never look at the model.mthe new FAQ explicitly says they are either an axe or a sword which means they are not power weapons, they are power axes and power swords.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 White Ninja wrote:
Also how was there ever a debate in the first place. All of the rules in question were universal from the rule book. Two handed is a trait not something special. They should have always been played as what they looked like. Now the whole characters changing their weapons from power weapon A to power weapon B is making a choice from the start all of which had benefits and problems.

So? There are no such things as USR anymore. There is a rulebook section called "special rules."

And these power weapons had "further special rules" which means you can never look at the model.

Hence why GW had to FAQ them to have explicit types as the rules were broken.

Axes and swords only.

nkelsch wrote:
Axes and swords only.

But why though? Yes they provide profiles for an axe and a sword and currently there is no debate that the Sanguinary Guard and The Sanguior may take either one, but why NOT a mace or lance?

Straight from the FAQ:
"Glaive Encarmine follow the rules as described in the Types of Power Weapon section on page 61 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, but also have the Master-crafted and Two-handed special rules. They would therefore have the following profiles."

They follow the rules for power weapons, they are not unusual. If you can choose either sword or axe (not MFA) then I cannot understand why a lance or maul is forbidden. (cause supposedly it is MFA)

Are you actually reading the v1.1 FAQ? It clearly states that the Glaive Encarmine can only be a sword or an axe.

Dandruff wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
Axes and swords only.

But why though? Yes they provide profiles for an axe and a sword and currently there is no debate that the Sanguinary Guard and The Sanguior may take either one, but why NOT a mace or lance?

Straight from the FAQ:
"Glaive Encarmine follow the rules as described in the Types of Power Weapon section on page 61 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, but also have the Master-crafted and Two-handed special rules. They would therefore have the following profiles."

They follow the rules for power weapons, they are not unusual. If you can choose either sword or axe (not MFA) then I cannot understand why a lance or maul is forbidden. (cause supposedly it is MFA)

They do not say follow the rules for power weapons... they say the rules for TYPES of power weapons then give you the TYPES you may follow.

When they were 'power weapons' they had 'further special rules' which meant you may never 'look at the model' to determine the type.

Now like most weapons which were ambiguously unusual and have further special rules, they skipped the whole mess of 'look at the model' to simply give it a type directly. They limited the type not based upon balance, but upon the look of the stock models. Hence you have axes and swords, not 'powerweapons'. Without having a power weapon, you may never check if you have further special rules to look at the model or not.

The FAQ response was to a question asked about axes and swords so they answered for axes and swords. It never says they are only axes and swords. They just gave an example profile to the question asked.

No, it is not "just an example". A Glaive Encarmine would have one of the two profiles listed in the FAQ. A Glaive Encarmine can only be modeled as either a sword or an axe.

So since it doesn't follow wysiwyg you can model an axe but use it as a sword?

No. It does follow WYSIWYG. What it doesn't do is allow you to model it however you want. Not surprisingly, you are limited to the options provided in the Sanguinary Guard kit of either swords or axes.

ianj253 wrote:
So since it doesn't follow wysiwyg you can model an axe but use it as a sword?

That is a question for your opponent. If you use Proxies, then proxy away.

The only weapon which REQUIRES WYSIWYG to work is unspecified power weapons which require you to look at the model to determine the type. When you were given the choice to buy an axe or sword, You are no longer required to look at the model but a majority of people will expect you to have them WYSIWYG as it is too confusing unless you say 'all axes, all swords'.

But whatever you come up with boils down to 'what you and your opponent agree on."

@ghaz the wysiwyg rule applies to unspecified power weapons but these are specified and can be used either or. Its not a proxy. If the power weapon rules don't apply acccording to you then you don't need to follow wysiwyg rule. So then i can decide what my glaive encarmines are used as regardless of how they look. I do however have to tell my opponent what they are as no to cause confusion as nkelsch stated.

Further it can be a suprise you are limited to what the kit gives you. Many models have tons of extra options but they don't come with the kit but model still can take them.

WYSIWYG applies to anything that is not basic wargear. When it comes to showing different choices in wargear and weapons you have to model them.

In a tournament a TO would be well within his rights to say when it comes to lots of different units, wysiwyg only.

If you model a mace or lance then how do you make it clear which of sword or axe it actually is?

A:Glaive Encarmines follow the rules as described in the Type of Power Weapon section on page 61 ... but also have the Master crafted and two handed special rules. Therefore would have the following profiles.

This faq allows for a glaive encarmine to be any type of power weapon. They follow the rules for mains just that.

By giving them example profiles you understand how they work. Can you use a staff? Yes ssince it would follow the rules for power weapons and have the additional rules of two handed and master crafted. This does not make it unique. It gives no further rules.

The only weapon which does not flow this precedent is Astorath's executioners axe which should have been a unique weapon since it has further special rules attributed to it.

Further special rules has been shown as rules that a specific to the weapon and are not defined in the rules as special weapons. For example a power axe that has fnp would still be a power axe. A power axe withshred would still be ap2 and s+1. This is not a further rule.

Grey knights with +2 i is special for halberds. Rules are given that further modify the weapon within the codex. Not rules within the main rulebook that add to the weapon. These are not further rules.

C odex = further rules.
Rulebook = not further rules.

Mc pw is any type of pw with the mc rule.
It is NOT unique.

Again, the FAQ only allows a Glaive Encarmine to be either a sword or an axe. Read the entire FAQ instead of picking and choosing the parts that you think support your position.

rogueeyes wrote:
A:Glaive Encarmines follow the rules as described in the Type of Power Weapon section on page 61 ... but also have the Master crafted and two handed special rules. Therefore would have the following profiles.

This faq allows for a glaive encarmine to be any type of power weapon. They follow the rules for mains just that.

Nope. Wrong. Dozens of power weapons were erattated to be a specific type and only a specific type. They are no longer power weapons. They are now explicit types.

By giving them example profiles you understand how they work. Can you use a staff? Yes ssince it would follow the rules for power weapons and have the additional rules of two handed and master crafted. This does not make it unique. It gives no further rules.

Wrong. Master-crafted is a special rule... if a power weapon has NO FUTHER SPECIAL RULES you look at the model. That is all now irrelevant as they have FAQed the type explicitly.

The only weapon which does not flow this precedent is Astorath's executioners axe which should have been a unique weapon since it has further special rules attributed to it.

All MC powerweapons have further special rules which means you may never look at the model.

Further special rules has been shown as rules that a specific to the weapon and are not defined in the rules as special weapons. For example a power axe that has fnp would still be a power axe. A power axe withshred would still be ap2 and s+1. This is not a further rule.

Has been shown? Where? it has not been shown and they have explicitly FAQed about 90% of weapons wit further special rules because they had further special rules and needed to be distinguished.

Grey knights with +2 i is special for halberds. Rules are given that further modify the weapon within the codex. Not rules within the main rulebook that add to the weapon. These are not further rules.

C odex = further rules.
Rulebook = not further rules.

Page number of that distinction and definition please? That is certiantly a RAI intepretation but by no means a RAW one and not defined anywhere down these arbitrary lines.

Mc pw is any type of pw with the mc rule.
It is NOT unique.

Oh ho ho... now you are talking about a totally different issue. There is a 'hole' in the rules for models who have 'further special rules' but do not have arguably 'unique CC rules'. They are two different clauses and it was common for PWs to have a further special rule but not have a unique CC rule which left the weapon in a gaping hole in the rules... Most of those weapons got explicit types FAQed into them, which is why we now have glaive axes and swords because by RAW the galive didn't work as it had a 'further special rule' which prevented you from looking at the model, but arguably not a unique CC rule so they were not unusual which made them 'nothing'.

But now they are axes or swords... nothing else.