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rogueeyes wrote:
Logic dictates that they are power weapons that also have the master crafted and two handed rules assoviated with them but we must identify what type of power weapon they are by looking at them.

Logic also dictates the order in which I do something will change the outcome of what happens in the end. If I satart with power weapon then add two handed and master crafted the weapon has further rules. But the FAQ is stating for us to use the rules for power weapons which states we must look st the model and determine thw type of weapon.

The question is also in reference to axes and swords. For axes and swords we are given the profiles. This does not limit otherwise we would be given the rule that you may only have axes and swords.

The FAQ gives me permission to use any type of power weapon. The profiles given are in direct response to the faq about swords and axes but do not limit the glaives to swords and axes. It limits it to being power weapons and the weapon types identified within power weapons. Master crafted and two handed are given as rules but not additional rules as clarified in the faq. Therefore the weapons do not follow under unique because we we do not haave additional unique rules but only the rules specifying we must follow the profile in the rule book and add two handed and master crafted to those profiles.

ZOMG THIS!!!

That reads a lot like "It does not say I can not, so obviously I can."

I see two options listed and people asking why they cannot use the third and fourth options that other units have listed.

rogueeyes wrote:
Logic dictates that they are power weapons that also have the master crafted and two handed rules assoviated with them but we must identify what type of power weapon they are by looking at them.

Logic also dictates the order in which I do something will change the outcome of what happens in the end. If I satart with power weapon then add two handed and master crafted the weapon has further rules. But the FAQ is stating for us to use the rules for power weapons which states we must look st the model and determine thw type of weapon.

The question is also in reference to axes and swords. For axes and swords we are given the profiles. This does not limit otherwise we would be given the rule that you may only have axes and swords.

The FAQ gives me permission to use any type of power weapon. The profiles given are in direct response to the faq about swords and axes but do not limit the glaives to swords and axes. It limits it to being power weapons and the weapon types identified within power weapons. Master crafted and two handed are given as rules but not additional rules as clarified in the faq. Therefore the weapons do not follow under unique because we we do not haave additional unique rules but only the rules specifying we must follow the profile in the rule book and add two handed and master crafted to those profiles.

The FAQ does not give you permission to use any type of power weapon. The FAQ does not distinguish MC or 2handed as not counting as special rules. The FAQ does not override the only clause which allows 'looking at the model' by redefining or making an exception to the 'further special rules'. If you play them as power weapons (which they are not) you may never look at the model because you have further special rules.

So the only way you may ever get a 'type' since you are prevented from ever looking at the model is with explicit types... which the FAQ has granted 2.

If you look at the model to determine the type, you are breaking the rules and making up stuff which you are explicitly forbidden from doing and the FAQ does not change that.

nkelsch wrote:
The FAQ does not give you permission to use any type of power weapon. The FAQ does not distinguish MC or 2handed as not counting as special rules. The FAQ does not override the only clause which allows 'looking at the model' by redefining or making an exception to the 'further special rules'. If you play them as power weapons (which they are not) you may never look at the model because you have further special rules.

So the only way you may ever get a 'type' since you are prevented from ever looking at the model is with explicit types... which the FAQ has granted 2.

If you look at the model to determine the type, you are breaking the rules and making up stuff which you are explicitly forbidden from doing and the FAQ does not change that.

REALLY?!?

The FAQ does indeed state that Master-crafted and Two-handed as special rules.

If looking to the model to determine the type is breaking the rules, how the hell do you choose between an axe and a sword in the first place? The way I interpret that is you would have to account for what type of weapon they have when you are buying the unit, could change from game to game regardless of the model (not in a tourney of course). I do not believe this is RAW or RAI.

"Q: Are Glaive Encarmines treated as 'unusual power weapons' (and therefore AP 3), or do they follow the rules for power axes/swords as defined by the type of weapon the model is carrying? (p50)

A: Glaive Enarmines follow the rules as described in the Types of Power Weapon section on page 61 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, but also have the Master-crafted and Two-handed special rules. They would therefore have the following profiles."

Yes, they do specify in the question whether or not they are power axes or power swords, but in the ANSWER they state they follow the rules for 'Types of Power Weapon.'

They need to clarify that if your weapon qualifies for the 'Types' rule, whether or not you can change the model.

 grendel083 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Secondly the FAQ for says

They would therefore have the following profiles.

this line limits you to the following profiles an exclusive list of what profiles a glaive encarmine can have.
So firstly the name glaive refers to pollaxe or sword.
The models come with pollaxes and swords.
Finally the FAQ lists them as axes and swords...
Guess what? They are axes and swords.

Totally agree with this.
If they wanted the other two as an option, they would have added them.

The FAQ also asks only about swords and axes and not other possibilities. Therefore the profiles given are only for axes and swords and not anything else. We are given the permission for pwer weapon types to translate into glaive types. You must take the entire faq not just the answer.

Also the fact that I used logic to determine how the rules functioned and was called absurd and making up rules shows how incorrect the argument is that only 2 types may be used. It is a logical fallacy the argument that glaives can only be 2 weapon types and only those two types.

Well if we take the question we see that since they don't ask about power weapons in general there must me a reason for it. Why limit the discussion to the axe and sword if there is 4 options available to the unit?

nkelsch wrote:

rogueeyes wrote:
Logic dictates that they are power weapons that also have the master crafted and two handed rules assoviated with them but we must identify what type of power weapon they are by looking at them.

Logic also dictates the order in which I do something will change the outcome of what happens in the end. If I satart with power weapon then add two handed and master crafted the weapon has further rules. But the FAQ is stating for us to use the rules for power weapons which states we must look st the model and determine thw type of weapon.

The question is also in reference to axes and swords. For axes and swords we are given the profiles. This does not limit otherwise we would be given the rule that you may only have axes and swords.

The FAQ gives me permission to use any type of power weapon. The profiles given are in direct response to the faq about swords and axes but do not limit the glaives to swords and axes. It limits it to being power weapons and the weapon types identified within power weapons. Master crafted and two handed are given as rules but not additional rules as clarified in the faq. Therefore the weapons do not follow under unique because we we do not haave additional unique rules but only the rules specifying we must follow the profile in the rule book and add two handed and master crafted to those profiles.

The FAQ does not give you permission to use any type of power weapon. The FAQ does not distinguish MC or 2handed as not counting as special rules. The FAQ does not override the only clause which allows 'looking at the model' by redefining or making an exception to the 'further special rules'. If you play them as power weapons (which they are not) you may never look at the model because you have further special rules.

So the only way you may ever get a 'type' since you are prevented from ever looking at the model is with explicit types... which the FAQ has granted 2.

If you look at the model to determine the type, you are breaking the rules and making up stuff which you are explicitly forbidden from doing and the FAQ does not change that.

No the FAQ gives the example of the two profiles that were asked about. Look at the question. Look at the answer. The answer clarifies what swords and axes are. It states you use the different types of power weapons. Therefore a power lance as a glaive encar,ime is completely legal by RAW. By limiting it and saying that they are not you are adding in rules that do not exist in the faq or the rulebook and allowing the rulebook to override the faq. Faq>codex>rulebook. You have bypassed this and tried to use rulebook > faq.


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 liturgies of blood wrote:
Well if we take the question we see that since they don't ask about power weapons in general there must me a reason for it. Why limit the discussion to the axe and sword if there is 4 options available to the unit?

Because they only give you swords and axes in the kit. You're not allowed to use anything else except what came with the box set.

But no one has addressed the fact that if a Power Weapon has 'further special rules' you may not look at the model to determine the type.

If you play it as a generic power weapon with special rules, then you may NEVER look at the model to determine the type. The *ONLY* way you may ever look at the model is with a Power weapon with no further special rules.

Unless the type is explicitly stated by the FAQ/Errata.

How are you looking at the weapon to determine the type as a Maul or Lance when you have special rules which prevent you from doing so? No permission to modify the model or look at the model to determine the type makes it very hard for it to be a lance or a maul via RAW.

Technically it is impossible for a lance to exist because the second a Power weapon becomes master crafted or two-handed, you lose the permission to 'look at the model to determine the type'. And if you argue the CC rules are not unique, you get a black hole where by RAW the weapon has zero effects or is catch-all as unusual... Due to a hole int he rules which makes most power weapons not-valid, they had to explicitly grant types to all power weapons with 'further special rules' to keep the game from breaking.

So even if you were allowed to use the default power weapon,t he special rules break the game and you never are allowed to look at the model so a Mace/lance/axe can never exist. (except Axes are now explicitly granted)

nkelsch wrote:
But no one has addressed the fact that if a Power Weapon has 'further special rules' you may not look at the model to determine the type.

If you play it as a generic power weapon with special rules, then you may NEVER look at the model to determine the type. The *ONLY* way you may ever look at the model is with a Power weapon with no further special rules.

Unless the type is explicitly stated by the FAQ/Errata.

How are you looking at the weapon to determine the type as a Maul or Lance when you have special rules which prevent you from doing so? No permission to modify the model or look at the model to determine the type makes it very hard for it to be a lance or a maul via RAW.

The reason why no on is addressing this is because it is CLEAR in the FAQ that they ARE POWER WEAPONS with SPECIAL RULES. Please go re-read the FAQ. I just typed it out a little while ago, I'm sure you can find it there too.

Again, if aren't supposed to look at the model, but you can at least choose axe or sword, how the hell are you supposed to pick axe or sword?

Dandruff wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
But no one has addressed the fact that if a Power Weapon has 'further special rules' you may not look at the model to determine the type.

If you play it as a generic power weapon with special rules, then you may NEVER look at the model to determine the type. The *ONLY* way you may ever look at the model is with a Power weapon with no further special rules.

Unless the type is explicitly stated by the FAQ/Errata.

How are you looking at the weapon to determine the type as a Maul or Lance when you have special rules which prevent you from doing so? No permission to modify the model or look at the model to determine the type makes it very hard for it to be a lance or a maul via RAW.

The reason why no on is addressing this is because it is CLEAR in the FAQ that they ARE POWER WEAPONS with SPECIAL RULES. Please go re-read the FAQ. I just typed it out a little while ago, I'm sure you can find it there too.

Again, if aren't supposed to look at the model, but you can at least choose axe or sword, how the hell are you supposed to pick axe or sword?

And they gave no exception from the default rules via the FAQ, they are not power weapons... they are poweraxe/power sword.

If you have a power weapon with NO FURTHER SPECIAL RULES you may look at the model to determine the type. THey have further special rules which means you may never look at the model to determine the type.

Since they have determined the type via FAQ, you skip the whole 'type determining' ruleset.

This means there is no valid way to ever obtain a maul or lance with 'further special rules' by RAW... For them to have a type with further special rules, it needs to be explicitly FAQed like the Crozarius.

Page 61: "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has:"

The FAQ did not remove this from the rulebook and did not grant permission to look at the model to determine the type. it explicitly gave explicit types which can be chosen in order to bypass the default rules for power weapon type determination. They did this for all weapons where the determination of special rules VS unsusual was in question.

Edit: you have to remember, there iss zero permission to CHOOSE weapon types with regular power weapons. This ability to choose a weapon is 'implied' that you have permission toc onvert your model. The difference is when granted explicit types, you have been given a CHOICE where before you had no choice, simply look at the model. So once you are given a choice, you can write down on your army sheet whatever you wish and explain to opponents. WYSIWYG is not part of the game, and explicit FAQed types do not rely on model appearance...

Generic power weapons with no further special rules do require WYSIWYG or otherwise they don't function. Glaives are now explicit types and may never 'look at the model' to determine the type. they may select one of the two types because having further special rules breaks the default rules for power weapons.

Your logic does not work, sir.

If it is an axe or a sword, you look to the model and they have the two special rules

If it is a maul or a lance, you cannot look to the model because they have two special rules.

Once again, read the FAQ. It seems like most of you are ignoring one half of the FAQ or the other because it doesn't fit the rules as you want them to be.

Glaive Encarmines follow the rules as described in the Types of Power Weapon section on page 61 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook...

This is the rule that tells you if it looks like a sword, you use the rules for a sword. If it looks like an axe, you use the rules for an axe. If you try to use a maul or lance but use the rules for a sword or axe then you have not "...follow(ed) the rules as described in the Types of Power Weapon section on page 61..." You have ignored the FAQ ruling.

They would therefore have the following profiles... Glaive Encarmine (Sword)... Glaive Encarmine (Axe)...

There are no profiles listed mauls or lances, etc. Only swords or axes. If you tried to make it a maul or lance, then it wouldn't "... have the following profiles...". You have ignored the FAQ ruling.
The only way you can follow the FAQ to the letter is to model the Glaive Encarmine as either a sword or an axe and then use the appropriate profile for how it is modeled. Anything else and you've ignored the FAQ ruling.

nkelsch wrote:
Generic power weapons with no further special rules do require WYSIWYG or otherwise they don't function. Glaives are now explicit types and may never 'look at the model' to determine the type. they may select one of the two types because having further special rules breaks the default rules for power weapons.

You still haven't told me how you choose between axe and sword if you never 'look at the model.'

I like this way of debating, just COMPLETELY IGNORE valid questions you are asked.

Dandruff wrote:
Your logic does not work, sir.

If it is an axe or a sword, you look to the model and they have the two special rules

If it is a maul or a lance, you cannot look to the model because they have two special rules.

Right. Because GW explicity changed the type. They have done it for dozens of other models.

Please show the rule that allows power weapons with further special rules to 'look at the model to determine the type'
Please show the rule that allows you to choose any of the 4 types of power weapons.
Please show the rule that allows you to modify models to have whatever weapon you want.
Please show the rule that removes master crafted and two-handed special rules from counting as 'special rules'
Please show the rule that clearly defines which special rules count as 'unique CC rules' or not.

You can't do any of that which means the ability to have a mace or a lance can never work. by RAW, the glaive encarmine either 'doesn't work at all' or is unusual... it is never 'look at the model' type.

I can show where they have explicitly granted permission to bypass all those rules to be an axe or a sword the same way banshees now have swords, the way DE now have AP2 weapons and the way crozariouses are maces... It is in the FAQ.

 Ghaz wrote:
Once again, read the FAQ. It seems like most of you are ignoring one half of the FAQ or the other because it doesn't fit the rules as you want them to be.

Glaive Encarmines follow the rules as described in the Types of Power Weapon section on page 61 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook...

This is the rule that tells you if it looks like a sword, you use the rules for a sword. If it looks like an axe, you use the rules for an axe. If you try to use a maul or lance but use the rules for a sword or axe then you have not "...follow(ed) the rules as described in the Types of Power Weapon section on page 61..." You have ignored the FAQ ruling.

They would therefore have the following profiles... Glaive Encarmine (Sword)... Glaive Encarmine (Axe)...

There are no profiles listed mauls or lances, etc. Only swords or axes. If you tried to make it a maul or lance, then it wouldn't "... have the following profiles...". You have ignored the FAQ ruling.
The only way you can follow the FAQ to the letter is to model the Glaive Encarmine as either a sword or an axe and then use the appropriate profile for how it is modeled. Anything else and you've ignored the FAQ ruling.

Stop telling me I'm ignoring something. If anything I'm reading into more than what's there. This is still false however.


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nkelsch wrote:

Dandruff wrote:
Your logic does not work, sir.

If it is an axe or a sword, you look to the model and they have the two special rules

If it is a maul or a lance, you cannot look to the model because they have two special rules.

Right. Because GW explicity changed the type. They have done it for dozens of other models.

Please show the rule that allows power weapons with further special rules to 'look at the model to determine the type'
Please show the rule that allows you to choose any of the 4 types of power weapons.
Please show the rule that allows you to modify models to have whatever weapon you want.
Please show the rule that removes master crafted and two-handed special rules from counting as 'special rules'
Please show the rule that clearly defines which special rules count as 'unique CC rules' or not.

You can't do any of that which means the ability to have a mace or a lance can never work. by RAW, the glaive encarmine either 'doesn't work at all' or is unusual... it is never 'look at the model' type.

I can show where they have explicitly granted permission to bypass all those rules to be an axe or a sword the same way banshees now have swords, the way DE now have AP2 weapons and the way crozariouses are maces... It is in the FAQ.

Just please tell me how you choose between an axe and a sword if you don't look at the damned model?

Dandruff wrote:

Stop telling me I'm ignoring something. If anything I'm reading into more than what's there. This is still false however.

"it doesn't say I can't" isn't a foundation for rules in a permissive ruleset.

The issue is RAW never allows weapons with special rules to look at the type. So even before the FAQ we had a broken black hole and there were no functional axes/mauls/lances. It was unsusual or 'doesn't work'. The FAQ has not changed this so falling back on the pre-FAQ interpretation doesn't grant permission for mauls or lances.

I'll stop telling you that you're ignoring something when you actually stop ignoring it. You still have not proven what is clearly written in the FAQ is false without ignoring the parts that you don't like.

Dandruff wrote:

Just please tell me how you choose between an axe and a sword if you don't look at the damned model?

You write it down on your army list like everyone else does for every other weapon option. people proxy all the time and WYSIWYG is a 'social convention' and not part of the core ruleset. If you agreed to proxy and said 'all my glaives are swords' you are perfectly within your right to do so.

Now if you said 'All my power weapons with no further special rules are axes' then you are breaking the rules as you are not given permission to choose a type, only to look at the model which makes power weapons the only weapon in the 6th edition rulebook which has to be WYSIWYG to work.

But any weapon which bypasses the 'look at the model' rule can be whatever type is allowed by the explicit FAQ, which is axes and swords.

Every other FAQ for weapons like this state: "Replace this weapon with the following profile:"

This is not worded that way.

Tell me how you choose between a sword or an axe in the first place if the model is not the indicator?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:

Dandruff wrote:

Just please tell me how you choose between an axe and a sword if you don't look at the damned model?

You write it down on your army list like everyone else does for every other weapon option. people proxy all the time and WYSIWYG is a 'social convention' and not part of the core ruleset. If you agreed to proxy and said 'all my glaives are swords' you are perfectly within your right to do so.

Now if you said 'All my power weapons with no further special rules are axes' then you are breaking the rules as you are not given permission to choose a type, only to look at the model which makes power weapons the only weapon in the 6th edition rulebook which has to be WYSIWYG to work.

But any weapon which bypasses the 'look at the model' rule can be whatever type is allowed by the explicit FAQ, which is axes and swords.

You have GOT to be kidding me. I'm done, please lock thread.

Dandruff wrote:
Every other FAQ for weapons like this state: "Replace this weapon with the following profile:"

This is not worded that way.

Tell me how you choose between a sword or an axe in the first place if the model is not the indicator?

It is worded that way:

"They would therefore have the following profiles"

You may choose either of the profiles.

The only time you are required to 'look at the model to determine the type' is when you have a power weapon with no further special rules.

When you have a weapon with explicit types, you simply have a weapon with that type the same way you may choose a plasma pistol or power fist... and the same way you may or may not model those options based upon the social conventuon you and your opponent agree upon.

Regardless, the only time you are allowed to 'look at the model to determine the type' is when you have a power weapon with no further special rules which means you may never have a glaive Maul or Lance without being granted an explicit type as the glaive clearly has 'further special rules' as shown in the FAQ which even says 'special rules'. Power weapons were a crappy implementation hence the reason they FAQed almost every power weapon in the game to have explicit types.

I see exactly how you would argue this in a tournament:

You: I attack with my Sanguinary Guard.
Opponent: Ok, whats their stregnth?
Y: Str 5
O: (Confused and looking at your squad) How?
Y: They have axes
O: But the models have swords.
Y: But I wrote down axes.


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nkelsch wrote:

Dandruff wrote:
Every other FAQ for weapons like this state: "Replace this weapon with the following profile:"

This is not worded that way.

Tell me how you choose between a sword or an axe in the first place if the model is not the indicator?

It is worded that way:

"They would therefore have the following profiles"

You may choose either of the profiles.

The only time you are required to 'look at the model to determine the type' is when you have a power weapon with no further special rules.

When you have a weapon with explicit types, you simply have a weapon with that type the same way you may choose a plasma pistol or power fist... and the same way you may or may not model those options based upon the social conventuon you and your opponent agree upon.

Regardless, the only time you are allowed to 'look at the model to determine the type' is when you have a power weapon with no further special rules which means you may never have a glaive Maul or Lance without being granted an explicit type as the glaive clearly has 'further special rules' as shown in the FAQ which even says 'special rules'. Power weapons were a crappy implementation hence the reason they FAQed almost every power weapon in the game to have explicit types.

The AXE and the SWORD would have the following profiles, the MAUL and the LANCE have different profiles found in the BRB with the two added special rules from the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't know about the rest of DakkaDakka, but when I think 'Look to the Model,' I think WYSIWYG. When I think of how to choose whether or not your Sanguinary Guard is armed with an axe or a sword, you wouldn't look at your piece of paper, you would look at the FREAKING model.

Undefined social convention have no place in a rules discussion. I play my models 100% WYSIWYG even is casual games.

Lots of people proxy. Tourneys have their own rules. Many tourneys already defined glaives as sword/axe even before the FAQ came out as well as a ton of other power weapons.

If my opponent wanted to proxy all his glaives as swords because he built them in 5th edition and doesn't want to change his models, in casual play I would be ok with it. In tourneys, it is 'check with your TO' as some TOs require WYSIWYG and some would be lenient due to the edition change.

But none of that has any impact as there is no rule that models be WYSIWYG... but there is a rule that the only way power weapons with no further special rules to have a valid type is via model appearance.

Glaives have special rules which means we never look at the model to determine the type. And the FAQ lets you choose one of the two profiles provided.

Arguing how people play WYSIWYG or PROXIES has nothing to do with the rulebook or FAQ.

nkelsch wrote:
Undefined social convention have no place in a rules discussion. I play my models 100% WYSIWYG even is casual games.

Lots of people proxy. Tourneys have their own rules. Many tourneys already defined glaives as sword/axe even before the FAQ came out as well as a ton of other power weapons.

If my opponent wanted to proxy all his glaives as swords because he built them in 5th edition and doesn't want to change his models, in casual play I would be ok with it. In tourneys, it is 'check with your TO' as some TOs require WYSIWYG and some would be lenient due to the edition change.

But none of that has any impact as there is no rule that models be WYSIWYG... but there is a rule that the only way power weapons with no further special rules to have a valid type is via model appearance.

Glaives have special rules which means we never look at the model to determine the type. And the FAQ lets you choose one of the two profiles provided.

Arguing how people play WYSIWYG or PROXIES has nothing to do with the rulebook or FAQ.

So if you saw this at tournament and your opponent said it was an axe, you would have no problem with it?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Too bad this isn't 5th ed. anymore. It's time to update your models, sir.

Methinks someone is taking this a mite too harshly.

However you would play it is fine and dandy.
How it is ruled is, apparently, largely irrelevant.

As for me, if it were a tourney, I would reference the nicely printed army list that has already been verified by the TO as legit and acceptably modeled, and move on to having a fun game.

BTW, you are the only one talking about proxies. Your argument about "you never look to the model" has been made VOID by the FAQ. Why would they say they follow the types of power weapons but also have special rules?

Redundancy is redundant.


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 kirsanth wrote:
Methinks someone is taking this a mite too harshly.

However you would play it is fine and dandy.
How it is ruled is, apparently, largely irrelevant.

As for me, if it were a tourney, I would reference the nicely printed army list that has already been verified by the TO as legit and acceptably modeled, and move on to having a fun game.

So if the TO authorizes that the Flamer is actually a Lascannon, you're cool with that? Personally, I'm not. This would be the same situation in my eyes.

Yeah, in a friendly game sure. Don't get me wrong, I play a lot of friendly games. But I also like a set of clearly defined rules when playing said friendly game. I really like to play as close to standard tournament rules when playing every game though. I don't get into arguments over Monopoly because the rules are solid. No one is going to try to argue you get $200 for passing go when you go to jail. Rules clearly say you don't.

Boy, oh boy, who was I to think GW added all of those power weapon options to 'sell more kits' and 'allow more creative modeling.' I bought an Sanguinary Guard kit with some birthday money last month and converted them over to lances. I ''assumed" they'd just be two handed, master crafted, weapons (basically what the Glaive is anyways).

Looks like I was wrong...but I'll keep using em as lances until someone complains, at which point I'll probably reconsider my choice of opponents.



Edit:
Anyone have any idea how freaking annoying it was to position these weapons on them (the two handed ones anyways)? So much green stuff/glue everywhere -.-;

Well I would happily let you call them axes

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Well I would happily let you call them axes

Lances are +1 str ap 3, on the charge, then they revert to basic Str and AP 4, they are hardly super powerful and if I fail to win the assault the next round I am considerably less threatening, seems balancing to me.

If I go to a tourney... then it is 'out of my hands' as I don't set the WYSIWYG standard. Some tourneys have allowed 'proxies' due to 6th being new and it is too soon for people to smash their models with a hammer and paint up for new tourneys. Others are requiring strict WYSIWYG.

Usually if you proxy, it would be 'all my swords are axes' in which case that banner guy COULD be an axe. If the TO is strict, then it is a sword. WYSIWYG doesn't change the rules in the book, none of which support functional Mauls/Lances for Glaives.

@Jstncloud

Those are cool... and just like other explicitly defined options, you can 'counts as' them as something else by saying 'all these pole arms are SWORDS' since the model has a weapon which doesn't fit the current rules. We have all been doing this for many editions. For most people, as long as the X=Y is consistent, they are cool with it.

Personally, I recommended people wait until the 1.1FAQ before smashing models with a hammer to make axe harlequins and such... because we all knew this would happen :( If you already did it... then work within 'counts as' and make all your switches consistent and people will be fine.


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 Jstncloud wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Well I would happily let you call them axes

Lances are +1 str ap 3, on the charge, then they revert to basic Str and AP 4, they are hardly super powerful and if I fail to win the assault the next round I am considerably less threatening, seems balancing to me.

Balance means nothing... just because some people feel all 4 power weapons are always equal doesn't mean that the restrictions placed by GW are not there. I am sure some people feel any power weapon should be every power weapon but GW has removed that from a large number of weapons.

nkelsch wrote:

Right. Because GW explicity changed the type. They have done it for dozens of other models.

1) Please show the rule that allows power weapons with further special rules to 'look at the model to determine the type'
2) Please show the rule that allows you to choose any of the 4 types of power weapons.
3) Please show the rule that allows you to modify models to have whatever weapon you want.
4) Please show the rule that removes master crafted and two-handed special rules from counting as 'special rules'
5) Please show the rule that clearly defines which special rules count as 'unique CC rules' or not.

You can't do any of that which means the ability to have a mace or a lance can never work. by RAW, the glaive encarmine either 'doesn't work at all' or is unusual... it is never 'look at the model' type.

1) FAQ says they are power weapons, and additional have special rules. If you don't look at the model, then I'll let you know what they have every round of combat. Trust me, don't look. Looking is the obvious answer.
2) FAQ calls them power weapons, power weapons are 1 of 4 types as outlined in the power weapon rule.
3) Page 27, Vanguard Vets, option for Vet Sarg. No model exists, but the option is legal. Conversion is the only legal model.
4) FAQ allows them to be power weapons with additional rules. It doesn't allow ALL power weapons to have additional special rules, just this one weapon, Glaive Encarmine.
5) Unique isn't defined. Glaive Encarmine is.

The FAQ didn't say, Glaive Encarmine is either a power axe or power sword with the additional rules of 2 handed and Master Crafted.
The FAQ did say, Glaive Encarmine is a power weapon.

The weapon stats listed below the answer are a clarification of what you're going to see, because nobody in their right mind would take a Glaive Mace or a Glaive Lance (though lance might look cool).

As an addition point of model what you want, read the section on Special characters in the Space Marine book. You're specifically given permission to make conversions and use the rules for the special guys in other chapters. You are not required to play Ultra Marines to run Cassius, you can legally convert one up and just use his rules.

-Matt