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So I'm doing some fluff development for a Chaos Warband, but I need information about Sisters to see if I can make some of the ideas I have work. So these are a little bit scattershot, but I freely admit not having a lot of knowledge about these things, so any help would be appreciated.

First of all, I do know that Sisters can be corrupted into Chaos, my question is are there any instances where corrupted Sisters fight alongside Chaos Marines? Or do they tend to stick to their own? I ask because I'm kind of digging on the idea of a Corrupted Sister/Cannoness becoming my forces' Dark Apostle. Would that work or are there things that would block something like that, either in the form of what happens to turned Sisters or where they end up?

The other part of my theme force is that the central image/theme is that of a Deathwatch team gone rogue, that would form the "core" of the army with a big squad of Chosen bearing the symbols and gear of their old Chapters (melta guy is a Salamander and so on). My question here is are there any instances of Sisters joining up with the Deathwatch? Either as an individual member of a kill team, or working alongside them in larger operations?

Humble thanks for any guidance.

Whew. An important detail to begin with: 40k is not a uniform setting where everything you read in every official/licensed product adds up to some true representation of the setting. Instead, what you see everywhere are but interpretations of the 41st millennium, warped in-universe by myth and superstition, and out-of-universe by an author's personal preferences. The various sources - GW rulebooks/codices, Black Library novels, Forgeworld books and FFG's RPG - frequently contradict each other on details like the ones you are inquiring about with this very thread. With stuff like this, the final decision ultimately rests with you, the individual gamer, and the owner of this army.

"Chaos Sisters" in particular is a topic that has been handled very differently depending on which source you are looking at. For example, no GW source ever actually presented us with an example of Sisters being turned to Chaos - quite the contrary, they often stress their resistance to corruption and their purity, with older material even describing them as "incorruptible". Licensed material on the other hand offers us anything from a single yet terrible exception right up to entire convents of Sisters turning to Chaos or being infiltrated by Genestealers (however the latter is supposed to happen).

Personally, I'm running with the "exception" version, because on one hand I'm willing to concede the "totally incorruptible" trait to the Grey Knights, whilst on the other I also believe in the extreme fanatism and lifestyle resulting in a heavily fortified mindset ("Shield of Faith"), which plays an important part in their backstory/overall theme. Also, by rendering Fallen Sisters a horrible, shocking exception it makes these corrupted individuals much more interesting persona rather than just an army of power-armoured heretics like CSM. That's not to say that such exceptions can only happen once in eternity - after all, what happened once can happen again - just that it'd be extremely rare and that all attempts would be made to cover it up and hunt the individual down.

The exception I am referring to is known as Miriael Sabathiel, by the way. Maybe you have heard of her. She is a Champion of Slaanesh leading her own little crusade against Imperial forces in the Pyrus Reach, having her own personal battleship and a bodyguard of Emperor's Children Terminators and Daemonettes. So far, she was featured in two of Sabertooth's 40k TCG as well as Dan Abnett's short story "The Invitation".



Maybe she can serve as inspiration if you want a similar "heroine".

Just a thought, of course - you can also just do an entire army of Fallen Sisters. Like I said, it's up to you which of the many interpretations of Sororitas corruptability you pick!

As for the Deathwatch, I am not aware of any such operations, though I suppose GW's Force Disposition Chart from the Armageddon War could be a potential tie-in. Otherwise, just come up with your own idea - even restricted to GW's vision of the Sisters, it is completely feasible to have them work alongside a Deathwatch kill-team on request by an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor. Ultimately, the alien is a sworn enemy of mankind and thus the Sororitas as well (and the Witch Hunter Codex certainly delivered sufficient examples on why they'd attack any of the Codex species, with a couple engagements being recorded in various fluff articles or even forming a major part of one of their old special characters, Saint Praxedes, who skillfully employed her fancy power maul to transform the brain of a Tyranid Hive Tyrant into pink pudding in single combat).

This is the kind of reply that is not only super helpful, but crazy kinds of inspiring. Thanks!

The idea that I've been using for the entire warband, or at least its "heart" of Lord, Apostle and Chosen is that it is entirely made of of fallen heroes. I've never been a fan of the more direct stories of corruption, which in my mind usually boil down to "ARGHLBARGLE DEMONS!" moments before the whole band of guys just totally loses their marbles and goes full Chaos-God-Of-Choice. I much prefer the stories more along the lines of the Astral Claws, or that one Ultramarine whose name escapes me who decided that he could do more than just the dirty work that nobody thanked him for.

The concept for me is that the Lord and his Chosen are all members of a Deathwatch team that has come to a similar conclusion. They have seen their work either forced into secrecy, or their finds taken away by the Imperium to be lost in the grinding bureaucracy and they have had enough. Toss in some whispers from a daemon weapon or two, and you have an entire band of characters with backstories and plausible reasons for turning on the Imperium.

What I'm getting from this is something like the Chaos Lord being a loyalist Luna Wolf (though this is a new question entirely, I know they were around ala Garro, but not if they would fly their old colors in the Deathwatch) and his Dark Apostle turning out to be a Cannoness who accompanied his squad on something. The issue now is how do we get that Cannoness to fall, and any Sisters who might have been with her.

I would also be cautious with Chaos Sisters. It is something not really supported by fluff but every naughty teen dreams about.

In the Grey Knight Codex, the practically incorruptible Grey Knights face a Blood Daemon. What do they do to just make sure: They slaughter the allied sisters and use their pure blood to have another safeguard. Sounds weird, but at least stresses how GW sees sisters. They are rather holy martyrs than naughty nuns.

Look up the Relictors space marines. They were very heavy into using chaos weapons against chaos until they were declared enemies of the Imperium for doing so.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Relictors

If there would be a Luna Wolf in the Deathwatch, about the only place I could see them would be as a Black Shield. I don't see the various Watch Captains or Inquisitors allowing someone with such questionable Primarch ancestry into a position of power like that.

There are some rumors of various other questionable individuals taking the path of the Black Shield. There is at least 1 reference to a Dark Angel investigating every Black Shield he comes across in search of potential Fallen.

That is not to say that a Black Shield from the Luna Wolves cannot wrest power away from the Watch Captains and lead a defection to the Ruinous Powers.

Also typically Deathwatch members only travel in small groups (1-10ish given the need). One thing you could do as the catalyst for them all turning to Chaos: Perhaps an Inquisitor was gathering as many forces as possible to combat a threat when the Watch Fortress got caught in a Warp Storm. The inhabitants of the fortress would fight for their lives, but it would only be a matter of time before the Geller Field started to fail.

Perhaps as the Geller Field was having brief surges in it's dying breaths that the whispers start? Eventually leading to a Marine or Sister to just switch off the Field and leave those still loyal to the Emperor to the mercy of the demons.

All. Your points are feasable. I would be careful how you include the canonness not because that she can't be corrupted, but why would the CSM keep her around. The marines tend to be prideful wretched creatures who don't take kindly to taking orders from someone they deem less than themselves.

How did the cannoness rise to such a prominent position and how did she gain acceptance? Or is she backed up by a someone who keeps the others in line.

curran12 wrote:The issue now is how do we get that Cannoness to fall, and any Sisters who might have been with her.

Sounds like you may want to read up on what is called "Radical Inquisitors" to me. Also, what Lazarus said about the Relictors - prime example of how the righteous can be lead on a path of damnation simply by doing what they think is right.

Here's a transcript from the Index Astartes that could be of interest: http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/ia/w40k_ia_relic_e.html

As for a fallen Sororitas, I would really start lower in the chain. The higher you go, the more difficult it would become to see someone fall. The Sisters in particular are pretty harsh about self-policing, although I suppose there is a point to be made about someone's resolve potentially being eroded after being inducted into the dirty secrets that hold the Imperium together - all the compromises and the corruption that cannot be eliminated because to do so would unravel the fabric of the God-Emperor's domain. Still, my personal recommendation would be a single Sister or Sister Superior, a la Miriael. By the way, you can read Abnett's short story on her here.

That's just my own two shells, though. Fan opinions on the subject will be as varied as the fluff in the various sources. Obviously, mine is rather close to Kroothawk, not in the least because the "purity angle" is, to me, one of their major themes.

Also remember that just because a female human (or mostly human) Chaos worshiper is wearing a suit of power armour it does not make her a former Sister.

Indeed many worshipers of the Chaos Powers would enjoy defling the dead and then using their armour - just for the effect it has on His loyal followers.

Eeee!

All these posts are so helpful, I'm loving it! And they are getting my idea wheels going, so let me cart this one out:

Basically, you begin with two forces. One is a Deathwatch team, a handful of members, Watch Captain and a few Black Shields. They have been dispatched to chase after an artifact that is the highest level of secrecy. The other force is a Sororitas strike force, a few Battle Sisters squads and a Canoness with her Celestians, pursuing the same relic as the Deathwatch. They meet up and agree to join forces to break the Chaos cultist and deamonic defense around the artifact. So far so good. The Deathwatch team adopts the role of a spearhead while the Sisters watch their backs, with the exception of the Canoness insisting that she and her squad be part of the first wave as well.

But then things start going south. The defense is far stronger than expected, and putting both commanders in the first wave proves disastrous. Both the Watch Captain and Canoness are taken down in a big hurry, severely damaging the chain of command. In the haze of the battle, a Black Shield and Celestian cobble together enough of their forces to lead an all out attack for the relic, "the mission comes first" is the priority hammered into their minds. The relic must be taken at all costs.

But as the ragtag and dwindling squad reaches the relic, both the Sistersvabd Deathwatch receive messages from Imperial or Ecclisiarchal command. "The relic is ours, ensure it remains that way," tacit commands to eliminate one another to serve the scheming of Imperial factions. As the squad finally secures the relic, it turns out that it is two relics, not one, a greatsword of masterwork craft and a maul of equal value, priceless artifacts to all. As the Black Shield and Celestian reach the goal, neither can give the order to turn on those who seconds before were back to back fighting the enemy. It is then that the Shield and Celestian each take up one of the ancient weapons and, in silent agreement, lead their forces to victory against the last remnants of the Chaos cult.

With the last daemon banished, the two hasty leaders and thier forces learn of the casual treachery of the Imperium and agree that such a leadership is not to be trusted, and a new renegade force is born.

Thoughts?

Story sounds interesting, but the reason for turning Traitor is very weak.

If every Marine or Sister that was forced to do something they didn't like defect, the Imperium would be no more.

If the Emperor's favored son can fall to Chaos, I can't see why Sisters can't. Go for it.

Sisters are not incorruptable. So having some fall the Chaos is perfectly fine.

Alkasyn wrote:If every Marine or Sister that was forced to do something they didn't like defect, the Imperium would be no more.

Man 's got a point. Marines and Sisters are heavily brainwashed.

How about a powerful daemonic presence within the relic influencing them, Frostmourne-style? Or "brute-force" it by making it something that goes on for several weeks or months, like with Miriael. This way, you maintain the Sisters' theme of powerful resolve and willpower whilst using prolonged erosion as an explanation to still get them where you want them to be.

Grey Templar wrote:Sisters are not incorruptable.

Depending on the book you read. Off the top of my head, I can name one Codex and a White Dwarf article that claims differently.
As usual, it comes down to personal preference and cherrypicking what you as an individual gamer like most. Welcome to the mess that is 40k fluff...

Ok, maybe we can say the Jury is out on Sister's being incorruptable.

GKs on the otherhand are incorruptable, and in addition it is explicitly stated that none have ever fallen to chaos. Unlike Sisters fluff.

I suppose the demonic influence of the relics would work. After all, tabletop-wise those relics are going to be their artifact weapons, so yeah, would make a lot of sense for those weapons to corrupt them over time. The question that arises from that though, is how long should something like that last? Maybe the influence grows with the body count? Again to use my tabletop plans, both the Lord (Black Shield) and Apostle (Celestian) are going to be Khorne marked, though I am not all happy with that, since I dont want slavering berserkers.

As far as Sister corruption, I was under the impression that they could turn but it was an extremely rare thing. The only thing for sure I want with my idea of corrupt Sisters is that they are NOT sexy demon warrior women. No Slaanesh influences on them or any of that kind of debased thing. I want them to, for lack if a better term, act more like female Word Bearers.

Well nothing requires you to take Cult units as troops if your lord has that mark. Its just an option.

Right, already handled that. No Cult troops and, as the gears turn in my head, probably no cultists either. The only real actual models that are kinda oddball are a Helldrake and Forgefiend, still trying to figure out how they fit in to the narrative

Here is a story you may like:

Im trying a similar thing with fallen deathwatch but here is a story which will fit your army if you like:

Ork Warboss Skullkrusha Gutrencher Warboss of the black fang tribe who has lead his own 100 year crusade against the Xyphose system has been dangerously crippled by the deathwatch kill-team "Emperors thunder" knowing he has nothing to retreat to the warboss and his WAAAGH attempt to make a last stand against the kill-team and the imperial forces on the hive world in the sector megnum prime.

However since the sector has been ravaged by war for 100 years there is great rebellions in the sector as the people feel that there is little hope left and they feel that their governer has abandoned them, so the people start to worship other sinister forces for help, in which case the dark gods pick up on there cry's and greatly help them for their allegiance.

The earliest warp portal opened and a great dark apostle stepped out of the portal and began whispering the true words of chaos into the peoples ears...

faster then the deathwatch and the imperial forces could react the sector was rife with rebellion and within the space of a month a great warp rift opened end engulfed the hive world.

Skullkrusha after being pursued for a month finally sees a chance to escape and also sees this as a sign from Gork and Mork slips into the Warp rift...

The warp rift has attracted the attention of the Ecclesarchy and therefore the fleet of an order of the sacred rose arrived in the space of a few days knowing they have to cleanse the taint of chaos, the deathwatch and the inquisition Knowing of how the Ecclesarchy operating in times like these instead of declaring Extertminatus (since the majority of worlds in the sector are uncorrupted) decided to negotiate with the Ecclesarchy and therefore make a Joint operation to stop the warp rift and to do this they will have to make a front head attack to the Hive world to destroy the main warp portal.

The battle was fierce many battle brothers and sisters fell that day and there was heavy casualty's that day for the imperium, the Inquisitor and main preacher (I Dont know what the sisters have) see they cannot win the battle decide to flee while squads "Emperors thunder" and "Eyes of fury" were amidst the fighting.

The squad "Emperors thunder" and squad "Eyes of fury" saw there fellow allies leave with more, of there brothers and sisters out of the rift, when they have just killed off many daemons and heretics that day as well as taking the head of Skullkrusha, and were stuck on the hive world, saw this as treachery and cowardice and therefore, felt greatly betrayed by their own, and so the Apostle came to them with open arms and both squads accepted the fact that the imperium is made of nothing but cowards and henceforth pledged their souls to chaos...

Hows that for a story? thoughts?

Grey Templar wrote:Ok, maybe we can say the Jury is out on Sister's being incorruptable.
GKs on the otherhand are incorruptable, and in addition it is explicitly stated that none have ever fallen to chaos. Unlike Sisters fluff.

There's no jury. Just lots of different authors having different ideas on how Sisters should be like in their eyes. Come on, surely you're aware of how things get twisted depending on who writes about them? Goto's Multilaser-Marines spring to mind - not the worst example to me, actually, but it seems to be the most famous one. Details like these are so fluid ...

In theory, someone could write a novel about a Chaos GK any moment - now, personally I wouldn't take it seriously or adopt it into my own interpretation of the setting, but you get the idea.

Come to think of it - when the GKs needed to sacrifice a bunch of Sisters to protect themselves from the Bloodtide in their new Codex, doesn't that mean that the Sisters are "more incorruptible"? Or rather, that the GK's incorruptability is actually "just" the result of them knowing some dodgy rituals to better protect themselves, rather than some inherent ability that is always active by default? Just a thought, and a friendly taunt.

As far as Sister corruption, I was under the impression that they could turn but it was an extremely rare thing.

Reaaally depends on where you're looking. With some novels you get the impression that this happens every Tuesday, if only because so few books actually feature them, and every 2nd that does goes the RAWR CORRUPTION way because apparently it's a thing.

The only thing for sure I want with my idea of corrupt Sisters is that they are NOT sexy demon warrior women. No Slaanesh influences on them or any of that kind of debased thing.

Ironically, all Fallen Sisters in the published fiction so far (that I know of) have been corrupted to the worship of Slaanesh.*

I guess a case could be made for them being deprived of sensations other than pain would erode their resolve if subjected to them for prolonged duration and in certain way (doesn't even have to be sex, it could well be ... a tasty cake!), whilst on the other hand their humble devotion and willing embrace of pain could be another path to ruin. Obviously, that sounds quite campy, but I for one am not dismissing conclusions (that also led to similar developments in real life; the Sisters Repentia are an obvious reference to medieval Flagellant cults, many of whom were later judged as heretics by the Church) just because it conjures the image of "nunsploitation". This is 40k, and the setting is dirty like that in some places. The important thing is to strike a careful balance between the intentional kink and overdoing it by cramming sex into everything like some horny 14yr-old who just found out the internet has porn. For example, I also think it's ridiculous that Daemonettes were remodeled because you apparently can't show tits anymore. I'm sorry, but this doesn't make the setting more mature - it just gives it a Teen rating.
Of course, that's just my opinion, and I expect many will not agree.

But don't let that influence your decision, OP - in fact, I've seen a pretty awesome conversion of a Khornate Sister once that was part of a CSM HQ. I can't find the photo anymore but it looked beautiful. iirc it was some Frenchman who made it - if anyone knows what I'm talking about, I'd love to find that again!

(*: there also was a story about a convent of Sisters infiltrated by Genestealers - however that is supposed to work - but since this doesn't involve Chaos or corruption of the mind I did not count them here)

Chaos sisters is one of the most insanely boring and overdone armies in 40k, so you won't get any kudos from me. There is no real way you can make it original or good. Chaos Space Marines, as pathetic and whiny as they are, at least aren't just there to fulfill some disturbing and deeply pathetic teenaged fantasy of having nuns corrupted in to sex fiends.

So no, your idea is not good, it sucks, and always will as long as it includes corrupted Sisters. But meh, why does my opinion matter? Do whatever you want. It doesn't mean you'll get approval from others, but you know, all you need is approval from yourself anyway-- they're your models, not mine.

 curran12 wrote:
Right, already handled that. No Cult troops and, as the gears turn in my head, probably no cultists either. The only real actual models that are kinda oddball are a Helldrake and Forgefiend, still trying to figure out how they fit in to the narrative

Maulerfiend = posessed penitent engine?

Forgefiend = posessed penitent engine with guns?

Helldrake = FLYING posessed penitent engine!

 Alkasyn wrote:
Story sounds interesting, but the reason for turning Traitor is very weak.

If every Marine or Sister that was forced to do something they didn't like defect, the Imperium would be no more.

IT was reason enough for most of the traitor primarchs.

Then again, they are and always will be pathetically weak, so maybe you have a point.

Uh Melissa are you on the right thread?

Dude, I specifically said I'm designing the idea to avoid the corrupted sexy nun trope. I totally know that is the usual and yawn-worthy angle for Chaos + Sisters, but yeah, I'm not even close to that in intent. So have you got any other feedback tgat I can use?

Who said it was sexy nun? You arn't going for Slannesh theme.


Anyway, are you looking for fluff justification to have the actual Fiends and Helldrakes or do you want alternate models?

For the actual units, they are just Daemon engines. Their services are sold to the highest bidder by the Daemonforge(which is not aligned with any of the 4)

 curran12 wrote:
Uh Melissa are you on the right thread?

Dude, I specifically said I'm designing the idea to avoid the corrupted sexy nun trope. I totally know that is the usual and yawn-worthy angle for Chaos + Sisters, but yeah, I'm not even close to that in intent. So have you got any other feedback tgat I can use?

Sure, I'll give you some more feedback.

The fact that it isn't going for the "sexy nun" nonsense does not make it any better. It's still exactly the same as the people who go around slapping "corrupted" before the name of every other army/concept/whatever out there and then saying "I have an idea for a cool new army!" Except it's not by any means new, nor is it in any way cool. If you have to have female members of your Chaos warband, why not have a sorceress in the form of a tainted psyker? Or a powerful, up and coming leader, who is on her way to becoming a daemon prince? Or hell, even female chaos marines makes more sense. Hell, any of these could even trick the deathwatch in to thinking the Imperium betrayed them anyway-- a sorceress creating a fake broadcast, a cunning leader using her plants to accomplish the same deeds, etc. Sisters, even if they feel the Imperium has betrayed them, are loyal to the Emperor first and foremost; Sisters would be more likely to recognize that the superiors in the church are flawed, but still be loyal to the Emperor first and foremost, than to betray Him over the stupidity of a priest-- after all, they know of their history, of priests being corrupted and perverting the Emperor's desires, or of heretics hiding in the dark and whispering lies to those in charge.

And yet despite this endless monotony of "let's throw chaos as a prefix everywhere and see where it sticks", for some reason people never call chaos players out when they invariably do this. I yet I get bashed for suggesting giving SIsters a bikes unit, despite the fact that bikes are widely available and not unique to any one faction, and match the Sisters' short-ranged, fanatical fighting style. There's nothing positive to say about "Corrupted Sororitas" ideas. It really doesn't match the lore, it's never going to be original, and in the end there are far better solutions if you need something similar in your army.

I'm fine with leaving it at that if you'd prefer to discuss your idea, but asking for more input from me is never going to get anything positive if the idea includes corrupted Sisters.

Well for one it is because I want to use this idea as a fluff basis for a CSM army that uses Sisters models, not a new army. Not new rules or any of the other things you have so eagerly accused me of wanting without apparently reading what my intent has been. The idea of sisters going against selfish commands of higher officers was also partvof my posts.

For two, you pretty much have said what I want to inude in the force on the tabletop. My planned Dark Apostle is a Sister, my planned CSM squads are Sisters. So again...I'm doing what you just said.

Soooooo yeah. I don't get where you are seeing me wanting to make a new army of corrupt sisters. At all. And I don't get the hostility, either. So I'll just be working then.

If you want to have chaos units using Sisters armor, why not have them be heretics who wanted to mock Sisters of Battle by having armor in the same general shape as that of the Sororitas?

Personally, I'd find that far more interesting and appropriate.

And no, nothing I said matches up with what you talked about in this thread. I never suggested using a traitor/corrupted sister, while that is the basis of your ideas.

I'm not sure what you wanted to do for models but one of the other threads posted a list of alternative models for a female slaneesh chaos lord. I know your not doing a slaneesh army but if you do end up doing a female chaos lord, some of the models might work. Again not sure if you have models in mind or are just working on background here

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/482495.page#4874606

 Grey Templar wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Right, already handled that. No Cult troops and, as the gears turn in my head, probably no cultists either. The only real actual models that are kinda oddball are a Helldrake and Forgefiend, still trying to figure out how they fit in to the narrative

Maulerfiend = posessed penitent engine?

Forgefiend = posessed penitent engine with guns?

Helldrake = FLYING posessed penitent engine!

I'm not sure really fir them model-wise.

The Drake is simple because I am one of the heretics who really likes it. So yeah that isn't too much issue. But ad far as the fiend goes, I'm more neutral. I don't hate it and I'd happily use it, but id happily use a conversion as well. But how to make a forgefiend fit this kind of theme is the issue.