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When is Epic, too epic?

Clarification: With mighty Primarchs waging crusades in the past and brave guardsmen storming the chaos-controlled front, when is so much, too much?

The is open to everyone. Please post examples from official lore to prove your points against any hypothetical examples.

Everything that Ward writes (Draigo,Calgar etc.)

 DarthMarko wrote:
Everything that Ward writes (Draigo,Calgar etc.)

Not true.
Sure, Draigo is a bit OTT
Calgar, meh.
Necrons? Nawh
Sanguinor? Nope.
Etc.

Whenever we get like 4 squads of Space Marines Drop-Podding into a horde of millions of Tyranids and Orks and magically turning the tide decisively.

Never.
But you can still have unrealistic stories. In Blood Angels codex, there was that Blackfang crusade, something like the whole Blood Angels chapter routs orks from a whole bunch of planets in a single campaign, apparently without support.
Yeah, of course they did.

And what about the Parasite of Mortrex turning the tide of an entire planetary siege all by itself?

Draigo carving his name into Mortarion's heart. Space Marine chapters. 1000 of them? way to little to do anything imo...

 Harriticus wrote:
Whenever we get like 4 squads of Space Marines Drop-Podding into a horde of millions of Tyranids and Orks and magically turning the tide decisively.

Depends. Dawn of War 2 wrote that happening well, because they did it in a plausible fashion involving surgical strikes against leaders to permit larger forces to win the day and because they had some support (everyone remember Sgt. Merrick, 101st Vendoland?).

It's a matter of plausibility more than it is anything else. Writing a one-sided battle is always boring, writing an implausibly one-sided battle becomes stupid (the dreadnaught curb-stomping Karandras in Path of the Warrior was absurd, given that the situation is a guaranteed win for Karandras on the tabletop, for instance); for keeping things plausible and readable in 40k, there are several general rules.

1. Keep in mind the exaggerated fluff of every army you're writing about. Yes, the Space Marines are the God-Emperor's Finest and the greatest and toughest individual warriors available to mankind. No, that does not mean they get to wander through the Black Legion like a living chainsaw, since the Black Legion is composed of people with exactly as exaggerated fluff running at you from the other side. Writing a Space Marine massacring a few dozen ravening cultists or Termagants is okay. Writing a Space Marine shooting up fifty Chaos Space Marines by holding down the trigger on his boltgun and walking out unscathed is not.

2. If I can come up with conclusive evidence in the game rules that your story is silly, it's silly. Yes, boltguns are fully-automatic armor-piercing rocket-propelled grenade launchers. They are still AP5. Power armor is a 3+ save. Showing a bolt round punching clean through a Guardsman is fine, showing one punching a clean round hole in a suit of power armor is not okay. Showing them not exploding is even sillier.

3. Remember the First Law of Warhammer: This is a dystopian universe. Sappy everything-works-out-in-the-end happy endings do not fit the theme of the setting. Characters don't get the girl, then retire to live happily ever after. Characters don't return from battle unscathed and awesome, ready to go out and slaughter bad guys again. Characters are scarred, wounded, and maimed. Characters die. Characters have to watch friends, family, teammates, idols, and loved ones get maimed or killed. Characters don't get recognition and accolades for their work, in fact characters may be court-martialed and/or executed for saving the galaxy. Eisenhorn and Ravenor do this well. Matt Ward's stories about Draigo or Calgar undergoing horrific and unendurable trials, to emerge without a scratch, the foe defeated, everyone alive, and happiness and congratulations all around do not.

4. Never, ever impose your standards of morality on people in a fictional culture in a fictional setting. You may think "Hey, racism is bad, why don't the humans and the Eldar and the Tau all just get along?". They do not. You may think "Hey, this Imperium of Man is a sucky place to live, why don't they have the First Amendment there?". They do not. Thankfully, no piece of canon has attempted to break this rule yet (though Gav Thorpe's communist Eldar skirt pretty close to it). Don't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Urien_Rakarth wrote:
Draigo carving his name into Mortarion's heart. Space Marine chapters. 1000 of them? way to little to do anything imo...

Draigo is ridiculous. On this there is consensus.

Looking at Dawn of War 2 again, a few Space Marine squads deployed in support of a broader war effort with surgical strikes, assaults against hard targets, et cetera can do wonders for any war. A thousand Space Marines in a thousand Chapters can do rather a lot of damage with the proper support and supply lines.

There are a lot of examples, I will name just some of them without counting Ward's magic wonders:

-Mephiston alone tearing trough band of Orks without any kind of weapons or armor, after being trapped under debris for a week. ( He also beat a Nob by making a hole in his chest and taking his heart )

-In Cadian Blood, 50 Cadians armed with Lasguns killed Daemon Prince that possessed their Regimental Psyker.

-Ollanius Pius standing before Horus himself on Horuses Flagship, trying to protect the Emepror of Mankind. ( yes, this is old and retconed but it is still awesome ).

-Knight Commander Pask, he's a guy who destroyed Gargants and Titans with a Leman Russ.

-Colonel 'Iron Hand' Straken who lost an to Miral Land Shark, he killed the shark with his own teeth while shark was feasting on his right arm. He also carried a wounded Guardsmen over half a continent while being constantly on guard.

And many others...

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
There are a lot of examples, I will name just some of them without counting Ward's magic wonders:

-Mephiston alone tearing trough band of Orks without any kind of weapons or armor, after being trapped under debris for a week. ( He also beat a Nob by making a hole in his chest and taking his heart )

-In Cadian Blood, a sqaud of Cadians armed with Lasguns killed Daemon Prince that possessed their Regimental Psyker.

-Ollanius Pius standing before Horus himself on Horuses Flagship, trying to protect the Emepror of Mankind. ( yes, this is old and retconed but it is still awesome ).

-Knight Commander Pask, he's a guy who destroyed Gargants and Titans with a Leman Russ.

-Colonel 'Iron Hand' Straken who lost an to Miral Land Shark, he killed the shark with his own teeth while shark was feasting on his right arm. He also carried a wounded Guardsmen over half a continent while being constantly on guard.

And many others...

On the Cadian Blood point: I've killed more demon princes with regular guard squads than with any other unit I've played.

On everything else: In my experience, coincidence has a greater than average chance of cropping up on the tabletop. I've seen titans get wrecked by single guardsmen with meltaguns on more than one occasion. A single Assault Marine tarpitting a mega armor warboss for three rounds. An ork nob taking out several Leman Russes in a single game.

I know brother but we are talking about fluff here, and in fluff is not that easy to kill a Daemon Prince with just Lasguns...

 Urien_Rakarth wrote:
Draigo carving his name into Mortarion's heart.

Yeah, that's the definition of too epic -- basically when the character, faction, scenario, etc, you just made up absolutely trounces the pre-existing standard of toughness for no other reason than to be that much cooler ... at that point, it has failed to be cool.

IIRC, it wasn't just one squad that engaged the Sergeant-Daemon Prince (Which seems kinda fun in a way...) , Warden-Captain Thade had drawn together a taskforce of 150ish Shock Troopers and had maybe 50 men at the battle, including a Commissar, the Captain and a Kasrkin squad too. I think. Don't have the book on me.

And one thing that really bugs me about the battle is how easily the Inquisitor was killed, why didn't the Daemon Prince just make it that easy with the Cadians then..?

 Wh40kProductions wrote:
IIRC, it wasn't just one squad that engaged the Sergeant-Daemon Prince (Which seems kinda fun in a way...) , Warden-Captain Thade had drawn together a taskforce of 150ish Shock Troopers and had maybe 50 men at the battle, including a Commissar, the Captain and a Kasrkin squad too. I think. Don't have the book on me.

And one thing that really bugs me about the battle is how easily the Inquisitor was killed, why didn't the Daemon Prince just make it that easy with the Cadians then..?

You are right, even if I don't have the book Lexicuanum said that 50 Cadians were present later. So it is possible that 50 Cadians fought against Grater Daemon.
Still an Impressive thing for a creature that require Grey Knights to be slain.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 Wh40kProductions wrote:
IIRC, it wasn't just one squad that engaged the Sergeant-Daemon Prince (Which seems kinda fun in a way...) , Warden-Captain Thade had drawn together a taskforce of 150ish Shock Troopers and had maybe 50 men at the battle, including a Commissar, the Captain and a Kasrkin squad too. I think. Don't have the book on me.

And one thing that really bugs me about the battle is how easily the Inquisitor was killed, why didn't the Daemon Prince just make it that easy with the Cadians then..?

You are right, even if I don't have the book Lexicuanum said that 50 Cadians were present later. So it is possible that 50 Cadians fought against Grater Daemon.
Still an Impressive thing for a creature that require Grey Knights to be slain.

You know what they say about Cadians

 Wh40kProductions wrote:

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 Wh40kProductions wrote:
IIRC, it wasn't just one squad that engaged the Sergeant-Daemon Prince (Which seems kinda fun in a way...) , Warden-Captain Thade had drawn together a taskforce of 150ish Shock Troopers and had maybe 50 men at the battle, including a Commissar, the Captain and a Kasrkin squad too. I think. Don't have the book on me.

And one thing that really bugs me about the battle is how easily the Inquisitor was killed, why didn't the Daemon Prince just make it that easy with the Cadians then..?

You are right, even if I don't have the book Lexicuanum said that 50 Cadians were present later. So it is possible that 50 Cadians fought against Grater Daemon.
Still an Impressive thing for a creature that require Grey Knights to be slain.

You know what they say about Cadians

That they have big feet? *winkwinknudgenudge*

There's a quote: "It's okay for stories to be impossible, but not implausible." That's why we're fine with Space Marines in 40k, the Hulk in The Avengers, and that kind of stuff. But when something a story is possible, but would most likely never happen (like a character getting struck by lightning on a sunny day or a regular Grey Knight carving his name on Mortarion's heart), then it breaks our suspension of disbelief. We're like, "Hey, that can't happen!"

Any book where marines never run out of bullets, no matter the odds, length of the battle, or existence of a supply chain.

For instance, the battle on the Daemon World in the first Soul Drinkers book.

 LoneLictor wrote:
There's a quote: "It's okay for stories to be impossible, but not implausible." That's why we're fine with Space Marines in 40k, the Hulk in The Avengers, and that kind of stuff. But when something a story is possible, but would most likely never happen (like a character getting struck by lightning on a sunny day or a regular Grey Knight carving his name on Mortarion's heart), then it breaks our suspension of disbelief. We're like, "Hey, that can't happen!"

It's a lot more about consistency than the impossible/implausible line; they've gotten us to accept the premise of their universe, then they go trash it so they can prove to us that this one guy is 'better' than everyone else, and we get pissed.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Any book where marines never run out of bullets, no matter the odds, length of the battle, or existence of a supply chain.

For instance, the battle on the Daemon World in the first Soul Drinkers book.

I've always wondered why a marine doesn't run out of ammo in the space of any sized engagement besides that of a tiny skrimish.

adverage bolter carrys 20 rounds per clip(that i've read about). sure the marine could carry X number of clips but many of the battles they seem to be in even if you could carry like 10 clips feasibly thats only 200 rounds and im sure that mass of Orks/Tyranids/nasty critters will take more then 200 rounds per space marine to stop.

One i liked was the Ig book that had a ton of cadians marching around trying to find Yarriks tank (i can't remember the name). when they did it they had a huge carravan of fuel trucks, Ammo carriers,Supply trucks of every size and what not following the Tanks and Troops around, which made it more beliveable.

Well, it depends. In a codex, nothing is too epic. A codex serves only to present facts. Dates, history, events, abilities, etc. So having huge battles and larger than life characters is par for the course.

But in a novel, any conflict that doesn't serve to advance the story and develop the characters is too epic. Millions of people dieing and things being blown up, and gods striding the earth, means nothing if we don't care about how that affects the characters in the story.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
There's a quote: "It's okay for stories to be impossible, but not implausible." That's why we're fine with Space Marines in 40k, the Hulk in The Avengers, and that kind of stuff. But when something a story is possible, but would most likely never happen (like a character getting struck by lightning on a sunny day or a regular Grey Knight carving his name on Mortarion's heart), then it breaks our suspension of disbelief. We're like, "Hey, that can't happen!"

It's a lot more about consistency than the impossible/implausible line; they've gotten us to accept the premise of their universe, then they go trash it so they can prove to us that this one guy is 'better' than everyone else, and we get pissed.

You know, normally when people disagree with me they're wrong, but I think you may be right.

Have an exalt.

 Kaldor wrote:
Well, it depends. In a codex, nothing is too epic. A codex serves only to present facts. Dates, history, events, abilities, etc. So having huge battles and larger than life characters is par for the course.

I would say that something that seems implausible ina codex is worse than anywhere else. At least in a BL book you have the option of rejecting it by way of the Black Library not necessarilly being canon anyway. In a codex it's shoved down your throat how great someone is, so not only is it implausible, there's also no way to reject it.

For me, "Epic" becomes "Too Epic" when any sense of realism is completely thrown out of the window, which usually happens just to make a specific character or faction seem more "badass", apparently in some sort of belief that under normal circumstances they would be less interesting. Basically a sort of abuse of the plot armour that should normally guarantee survival of important story assets under situation where it would still seem sensible.

40k as a setting pretty much has "epic" everywhere, from the gigantic size of its buildings and starships to the uncounted armies of humanity stuck in eternal war to 7-feet tall genetically augmented warriors wielding miniature rocket launchers that make a huge boom when fired. There is a wide range where a story would still be sensible within the rules of the universe, yet again and again there are instances where an author is going overboard, like an artist just splashing an entire bucket of colour on a canvas because he believes that there can never be "too much red".

Obviously, we all have our own individual tastes on where exactly we draw the line - and in a way, it may be nice that the franchise manages to cater to all of us out of sheer volume and availability in different interpretations throughout all the various media.

Anyhow, for "practical" examples of both Epic versus Too Epic, I present two stories, both originating from Games Workshop themselves. Fortunately, both short stories could be found on the internet, so that anyone who does not already know them can form their own opinion:

Epic: Tycho's Fall

In this story, we are told of the last battle of Captain Tycho of the Blood Angels Chapter, who opts to sacrifice himself as he sinks ever deeper into the Black Rage - the chronic flaw in the Blood Angels' geneseed. He is the classic hero, a strong fighter who will take down many an enemy in close combat, yet in the end he will succumb and we are reminded of his mortality. In essence, he goes out with a big bang, a fitting end for such a character. Due to this "last stand" theme, the potentially extreme amount of enemies he manages to best can be forgiven, for ultimately he is still overpowered, not to mention that the excellently inserted flashbacks/visions constitute a flaw, and as any author knows, the best characters are those who have strengths as well as weaknesses.

Too Epic: The Plague of Unbelief

The reader's focus should rest with the part about the Battle of the Fang. Like the above story, this section focuses on a big war, yet unlike the carefully executed sacrifice, this one almost comes across like a blunt cartoon story that desperately tries to hammer the awesomeness of the heroes home to the juvenile audience. Not only do the defending Space Wolves manage to hold their world for three years against a vastly superior force with air and orbital superiority, the foe is ultimately chased away when a whole fleet of Battle Barges pops out of nowhere (which obviously means the defenders were not even the whole Chapter). In this story, we learn that the Space Wolves' fortress is apparently invulnerable to orbital bombardment, that they stockpile sufficient ammunition for at least three years of constant warfare in a single constantly besieged compound, and that their fleet is perfectly capable of tearing the entire Segmentum Pacificus Navy a new one - in blatant disregard of what every detailed description of the Codex Astartes tries to tell us about the Post-Heresy naval capabilities of the Space Marines.
It would have been easily possible to make this story remotely believable if the focus had been with the native Fenrisians and their valiant resistance against the millions of invading Guardsmen, yet obviously this did not happen and all we get to hear is that they were apparently difficult to keep interned once captured (Ooooh..!). Instead, we read about how a few hundred Space Marines slap hundreds of regiments of Guard around in what can only be described as one of GW's worst attempts at catering to Astartes fans ever. In my opinion, other stories show that they can do much better, although I do have a propensity towards a sort of "narrative balance", meaning that strengths need to be balanced with flaws, and heroics with tragic.

Arguably, some will find the second story better than the first, which is where personal opinions and preferences come into play. Some just find the "immortal god of war" approach more appealing than a more gritty, down to earth "genetically engineered warrior-monk". So in a way, some people may even feel as if there is "not enough epic" in various stories - as an example off the top of my head, I vaguely recall we just had a thread where someone complained about a recent White Dwarf story in which a squad of Marines was overwhelmed by a bunch of cultists. In the end, there is no accounting for taste.

 Harriticus wrote:
Whenever we get like 4 squads of Space Marines Drop-Podding into a horde of millions of Tyranids and Orks and magically turning the tide decisively.

I always resent that. People automatically assume that a tyranid out of synapse is like an ork. Chaotic, and no sense of organization. Stick a brood of 9 screamer killer carnifexes on the front lines with a prime for synapse. I dare you to pop the prime. There won't be any surviving troops in the area within 20 seconds, fluff wise.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Any book where marines never run out of bullets, no matter the odds, length of the battle, or existence of a supply chain.

For instance, the battle on the Daemon World in the first Soul Drinkers book.

That is not true. Read the Battle of Macraggre. I believe they had plenty of ammo shortages.

 DarthMarko wrote:
Everything that Ward writes (Draigo,Calgar etc.)

Wow, the Ward whines start early in this one...

How about the four day battle between Lion El'Jonson and Leman Russ over a supposed slight?

 Lynata wrote:
So in a way, some people may even feel as if there is "not enough epic" in various stories - as an example off the top of my head, I vaguely recall we just had a thread where someone complained about a recent White Dwarf story in which a squad of Marines was overwhelmed by a bunch of cultists. In the end, there is no accounting for taste.

That's a bit of a misinterpretation of TheCaptain's complaint. His problem wasn't that the Space Marines "weren't badass enough" or something, his problem was that portraying Marines as being physically overpowered by a couple of unenhanced cultists, or getting shot up by autoguns, is a complete spit in the face of almost every aspect of Marine fluff.

The complaint isn't dissimilar from your own above; regarding the Wolve's fleet holding their own against a Segmentum fleet. As far as fluff, a cultist, even a squad of cultists, is to a marine what a Space Marine fleet should be to a Segmentum fleet. Fodder, essentially.

- - - - -

Anyway, "too epic" is when something spits in the face of continuity simply for the sake of being cool.

I think that to majority of people (I know, citation needed) there are figures in every universe that are 'excused' from doing pretty much anything. Most of the time it's the evil side especially if it's the face of a faction or something / someone who does not exist anymore or has no possibility to influence the world with his full power. Examples: the first category are the evil Primarchs (plus things like Hive Mind), second are dead Primarchs, third is Teh Emprah and stasis-ed Primarchs.

The interactions between those may be OTT and still be 'plausible' within an universe. They should be beyond reason and can bend the rules much farther. Don't get me wrong, they can still get pretty silly, but it's never as painful with them.

People don't respond to well to those guys getting defeated often or without prophecy / ancient one-use artefact / divine intervention etc.. If the good guys can produce something more powerful and pummel the bad top dogs, all the tension and the drama is gone.
"Oh no! The biggest. baddest mofo is out. He can do this only once in a looooong time so it's a rare and incredibly dangerous thing. No worries, we'll just send two guys and they will deal with him. Wow, I'm on a edge of my seat." That is why people don't respond to Draigo too well.
At least IMHO.

BlaxicanX wrote:That's a bit of a misinterpretation of TheCaptain's complaint. His problem wasn't that the Space Marines "weren't badass enough" or something, his problem was that portraying Marines as being physically overpowered by a couple of unenhanced cultists, or getting shot up by autoguns, is a complete spit in the face of almost every aspect of Marine fluff.

I don't remember the thread too well, but I do remember that I thought that whilst it was (for once) on the other end of the scale of what I'd consider "feasible" for Astartes, it was still feasible - at least from the arguments presented. The complaint was, as far as I recall, focused on three points: That the Space Marines missed some of their shots, that several Cultists managed to topple one, and that autoguns are capable of neutralising them. Neither of these three points is in violation with what *I* have read - and apparently a number of Dakkanauts felt likewise, for the thread went on for a good half dozen pages with what seemed like a fifty-fifty split in opinion regarding that story.
I acknowledge that quite a number of publications out there portray Astartes on a whole different level of badassness, however, which results in "the Marine fluff" not being as uniform as you might make it sound there. Someone who grew up on, for example, BL "bolterporn" more than several editions of Codex fluff would very likely draw the line elsewhere than I do, even aside from personal preferences which may (obviously) have a similar effect in perception.

Macok wrote:I think that to majority of people (I know, citation needed) there are figures in every universe that are 'excused' from doing pretty much anything. [...]

That sounds likely, although I would not count myself amongst them. In regards to the Primarchs, aside from simple "good taste" regarding supposedly godlike individuals in a world of science and technology rather than the truly supernatural and unexplainable, we also have certain "facts" such as Rogal Dorn dying to a bunch of CSMs whilst leading a boarding party, so I find some of the material that tries to make it look as if they'd be invincible to "ordinary enemies" just very cliché. Don't get me wrong, I can easily enjoy action flicks with seemingly invul heroes just as much as I enjoy a more gritty, realistic approach - I just don't think it is such a good idea to mix the two, and for the latter a certain sense of danger and vulnerability always needs to be present for anything and everything. Grimdark should mean "anyone and anything can die". The setting is vast enough in scale that you'll invariably still end up with some outstanding heroes. Especially if we consider much of the fluff to be "distorted half-truths" (as some people from GW and BL have described it) where the actions of certain individuals or small groups of people, while remarkable, are deliberately exaggerated further. A good real world comparison might be the movie "300".

AnomanderRake presented a good argument in that a story should fit to the game rules. Many people argue that these rules are supposedly not in line with the fluff, yet are they not the one and only objective representation we truly have? Arguably, the level of abstraction can potentially distort perception somewhat, yet the numbers offer us a tangible comparison of which weapon is better than another, what level of protection a suit of armour may offer, etc. Combined with the rare detailed technical descriptions occasionally found in various books, one could distill a certain set of standards to judge the various stories with. But of course, in the end many things also come down to simple gut-feeling and bias towards or against something.

 LoneLictor wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
There's a quote: "It's okay for stories to be impossible, but not implausible." That's why we're fine with Space Marines in 40k, the Hulk in The Avengers, and that kind of stuff. But when something a story is possible, but would most likely never happen (like a character getting struck by lightning on a sunny day or a regular Grey Knight carving his name on Mortarion's heart), then it breaks our suspension of disbelief. We're like, "Hey, that can't happen!"

It's a lot more about consistency than the impossible/implausible line; they've gotten us to accept the premise of their universe, then they go trash it so they can prove to us that this one guy is 'better' than everyone else, and we get pissed.

You know, normally when people disagree with me they're wrong, but I think you may be right.

Have an exalt.

Maybe we're both right?

 Lynata wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:That's a bit of a misinterpretation of TheCaptain's complaint. His problem wasn't that the Space Marines "weren't badass enough" or something, his problem was that portraying Marines as being physically overpowered by a couple of unenhanced cultists, or getting shot up by autoguns, is a complete spit in the face of almost every aspect of Marine fluff.

I don't remember the thread too well, but I do remember that I thought that whilst it was (for once) on the other end of the scale of what I'd consider "feasible" for Astartes, it was still feasible - at least from the arguments presented. The complaint was, as far as I recall, focused on three points: That the Space Marines missed some of their shots, that several Cultists managed to topple one, and that autoguns are capable of neutralising them. Neither of these three points is in violation with what *I* have read - and apparently a number of Dakkanauts felt likewise, for the thread went on for a good half dozen pages with what seemed like a fifty-fifty split in opinion regarding that story.
I acknowledge that quite a number of publications out there portray Astartes on a whole different level of badassness, however, which results in "the Marine fluff" not being as uniform as you might make it sound there. Someone who grew up on, for example, BL "bolterporn" more than several editions of Codex fluff would very likely draw the line elsewhere than I do, even aside from personal preferences which may (obviously) have a similar effect in perception.

The complaints were that:

1. For every ten shots the Space Marines were firing, they were missing with 6 or 7 of them, against stationary targets.
2. They were getting gunned down by autogun fire.
3. A couple of cultists managed to push over a Space Marine, pin him to the ground, and stab him in the throat with a knife.

All thee points are blatantly contradictory of Space Marine fluff. It doesn't have anything to do with Space Marines being hyped up. The outrage is similar to seeing a Cannoness and a team of sister superiors get their asses handed to them by a squad of knife wielding ratlings. After reading that you would be like "wtf is this gak". I point to your outrage over a Space Marine fleet holding its own against segmentum fleet.