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Setting aside the whole "Sword & Shield VS Warscythe" armament debate, how does everyone actually use their Lychguard once they get them on the table?
So far in 6th I've only used them twice, both times in a defensive capacity, as I found the lack speed, or at least a way to get them into assault range, extremely frustrating. I've found them to be underwhelming, so was thinking about leaving them out of any future list building.
But before I went that far, I was hoping SOMEONE out there might have figured out a way to reliably get these guys into murder range quickly and efficiently.

I had been thinking of sticking Anrakyr and a Combat Res-Lord (Warscythe, MSS, weave, ResOrb) in with a group to grant them Counter Attack and Furious Charge... S8 when assaulting = instant death to a lot of things, after all.
However, I could essentially get the same thing by including Zahndrekh (would grant the Lychguard both Counter Attack and Furious Charge when needed, plus already comes with a ResOrb AND a Phase Shifter)... though, by doing so, I would be losing out on a couple extra Warscythes...
Anyway, even if I did settle on who I wanted accompanying them, I'd still need to figure out a way to get them into assault range.

If I was going to run them offensively, walking them across the table would be ineffective, as by the time they were finally able to get into contact with anything, the game would be near finished anyway. Dropping them in wouldn't be all that appealing, either, as every way I can think of (Nightscythe delivery, Veil of Darkness/Obyron's Ghostwalk, Monolith portal) would see them sitting there for a full turn before they'd be able to do anything (most likely to be blown to bits).

So? How do you do it? How do you best use these guys?

I generally like to walk them alongside my warrior bricks as that charge deterrent and fire magnet. Though I do have some sort of veil with them usually (obyron or otherwise). Since most games are objective games I use it to pop them around to deny backfield objectives and keep that heat off the scoring units. It really depends on how the battle is going though. Against any sort of high mobility list the unit begins to have issues as it just can't keep up, but I love em all the same.

The quickest way to get them into position is with a Veiltek, by starting them on the board, and then using it. They'll still have to stand around for the first turn, but that is the quickest way to do it.

I don't really use them much anymore honestly. They are a fun unit to bust out on occasion, but I find there are more cost effective ways to get things done.

Well, in larger pt games, I'd be inclined to mount 5 Lynchguard in a NS dropping them behind enemy lines and watching the opponent's face.

Offensively, but not as you describe.

I put Zkhandrekh and Obyron in the unit (sword and board kit) then teleport them where they are needed. This unit is just sick and can absorb far more firepower than you'd imagine. If the opponent ignores them, then I get free reign to butcher most anything. If they focus fire then the rest of my army gets to move into position. I've never had a game where this unit was not the MVP and game decider.

I used five lychguard with shields, with a cryptek with a veil, and attached Trazyn. Deep Striked into enemy lines, unfortunately they landed on a bund line right in front of a 30+ guard squad and then Aristotle or someone came with some death company and finished them off. But, on a luckier day...

 buddha wrote:
Offensively, but not as you describe.

I put Zkhandrekh and Obyron in the unit (sword and board kit) then teleport them where they are needed. This unit is just sick and can absorb far more firepower than you'd imagine. If the opponent ignores them, then I get free reign to butcher most anything. If they focus fire then the rest of my army gets to move into position. I've never had a game where this unit was not the MVP and game decider.

However, this a lot of points in a single unit. I prefer a DLord leading a Wraith unit.

Way too overcosted, underperform.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Way too overcosted, underperform.

Well, every shot agains a Lynchguard unit in the enemy's backfield is one shot less at your main force. Here its better to give the Lynchguard the 4++ save.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Way too overcosted, underperform.

Well, every shot agains a Lynchguard unit in the enemy's backfield is one shot less at your main force. Here its better to give the Lynchguard the 4++ save.

But then a lychguard is worth several times more than a warrior, point wise.

If I was to use them, it would be in a night scythe. That is the best way to get them somewhere useful.

The most milleage i have gotten out of Lychguard is to drop them in the enemy back field in the early game once the reserves have started to come on. You can do this with a nightscythe or a veiltek. with a veiltek they have far more maneuverability than wraiths, and since they are smaller models, can avoid a good amount of firepower by using cover wraiths would tower over. by the time you redploy them, your opponent should be out of position to take them down easily, and they can sidestep any units that can beat them up.

the most success i have gotten out of them was against space wolves, where a turn 3 move allowed me to roll up the long fangs he was using as heavy support, and then with a counter punch coming their way, teleporting back to safety. if left unchecked, they can cause havoc in an enemy back field, push troops off back field objectives, easily get linebreaker, and cause a disproportionate amount of havoc. wraiths may be a better buy in terms of offensive power, but Lychguard with royal court members can be a threat of a completely different kind

Man is that box ever good for making lords and crypteks! Combine with some warriors and pilots for some really cool models!

Ask yourself what you want to be doing with the unit, how consistently do you think it's doing something you built it for and if you have any other options for doing that job that might be more cost effective or have more utility.

The best use I have found for Lychguard is three easy steps:

1. Buy a box of Lychguard/Praetorians.
2. Use that box to convert Warriors into Crypteks.
3. Use the Crypteks

 azazel the cat wrote:
The best use I have found for Lychguard is three easy steps:

1. Buy a box of Lychguard/Praetorians.
2. Use that box to convert Warriors into Crypteks.
3. Use the Crypteks

This. A 4++ is more or less useless on something that only has a 3+ save, because they aren't going to die to lascannons and plasma that often. They will generally die to bolters and lasguns because they lack the speed to not have to spend a round sitting in Rapid Fire range.

Its a dam shame that Lychguard are too expensive to field, the models are very good and I'd like the idea of the overlord having a killy bodyguard to hang with instead of being lumped into Warrior blobs or Immortal units.

If Wraiths weren't so much better and 5 pts less then perhaps Lychguard would be used. Personally I think GW should made these guys have +2 save, then people would be able to use even the Warscythe with confidence or go for the Sword & shield for a more defense build.

 azazel the cat wrote:
The best use I have found for Lychguard is three easy steps:

1. Buy a box of Lychguard/Praetorians.
2. Use that box to convert Warriors into Crypteks.
3. Use the Crypteks

I made sword and board lychguard and 4 warrior converted cyrpteks.

I see a nercon player making good use of them with obveryon or whoever and deep striking them in my area, sometimes with another lord attached. They are either hell to remove, or easy to deal with. It helps keep his other guys kicking.

i personnaly use them as sword and board out the Lith. I find them appearing in front of the Monolith those MeltaVets were about to shoot at gives any player cause for alarm. They either try and kill the Lychguards or they shoot at the Monolith and more often than not do nothing.

However, I agree they should have a 2+ save. Or at least the Sempiternal upgrade for 5 Points. (thus +10 for 2+/4++)

There just not that effective and are out shined by other units in the codex, namely wraiths. If you could choose to take which save to make rather than the best then there could be situations where they are useful but as is they just aren't.

If you are intent on running them then be sure to stick a Res.orb in there as well as a veil along with shields and sword. You need them to get into combat fast and be survivable enough to take a lot of hits they are going to take. But in the end they will die in the same manner that most deal with terminators, weight of fire, and they will go down quicker to it.

They are very reminisent of the pariah of the last codex, slow so they can't get to combat, poor armour save for uber assault unit, low initiative. Except that pariah had all these cool special rules that the lychguard don't, and the pariah had a gun, and the pariah were cheaper. Basically remember all the competitive lists/effective lists you saw of the old necrons? Remember how many had pariah? Well lytchguard do their job but worse.

I would drop them and proxy them for crypteks in casual games. Since without an assault transport they suffer getting into combat, which other races assault troops tend to have. A nightscythe at best comes in on turn 2 giving you a potential turn 3 assault plus your stuck just standing their turn 2. Deepstriking leaves you with potential mishaps and nothing to do when you arrive, the lack of any gun or deepstrike protection hurts this as a competitive solution as well.

For a cheaper price you could run wraiths who have an extra wound, an extra attack, a lower invuln save, a higher strength(if you opt for shields), are fearless, have options to strike first in CC, and are jump infantry. Lytchguard just dont compare.

Now they're not ideal, but Trazyn with them makes them effectively Scoring.

Hmm, from the looks of it, it would seem the most effective way to get them in AND have them survive a full turn just sitting there would be to deep strike a monolith (and pray it doesn't mishap), face the door away from the enemy, and have the Lychguard walk out. That way, you would have a mountain of AV14 sitting between them and any guns hoping to shoot them for that one turn they'll be standing there with their thumbs up their metal asses. THEN on your next turn, you move the Monolith over, walk the Lychguard forward, and pray you get a decent assault roll.
...
But all that is a lot of points, just to do what other units in your army could do more effectively (hell, even Praetorians would have a better run).

So I guess to use Lychguard properly, you either have them babysit vulnerable units in defensive mode... or leave them out entirely.

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:

If Wraiths weren't so much better and 5 pts less then perhaps Lychguard would be used. Personally I think GW should made these guys have +2 save, then people would be able to use even the Warscythe with confidence or go for the Sword & shield for a more defense build.

With a 2+ they would be too good, essentially Str5 T5 terminators that get back up for the same cost.

The problem is that wraiths are just so much better with more attacks, wounds, a crazy invuln, 12" move and oodles of special rules.

Punisher wrote:
But in the end they will die in the same manner that most deal with terminators, weight of fire, and they will go down quicker to it.

Wrong. T4 2+ dies much faster then T5 3+/5+ RP to rate of fire weapons. Throw a Res Orb in (which is a given for LG) and it's not even close:

Bolters versus Terms or LG:

12(1÷2)(1÷6)=1 , so 12 Bolter Hits on average will kill a Term.

18(1÷3)(1÷3)(1÷2), so 18 Bolter Hits on average will kill an LG. Keep in mind these are hits, not shots, and the LG are 50% more resilient.

Also, your Pariah analogy is rather lacking. Pariahs were unusable. Pariahs couldn't use Monoliths, Night Scythes, didn't have WBB (RP), and couldn't attach Royal Court options, or get invulnerable saves. Their was also no such thing as Trazyn in the previous Codex that could make Pariahs scoring.



As far as how to use LG, the big menu items have been hit:

1.) Get them mobility, either Monos, Nigth Scythes, Veilteks (or Obyron) or some combination there of.
2.) Get them a Res Orb. They will attract the attention, might as well make the most out of it.
3.) Trazyn. Makes them scoring. Keeps them from being swamped. Doesn't die.

 skoffs wrote:
Hmm, from the looks of it, it would seem the most effective way to get them in AND have them survive a full turn just sitting there would be to deep strike a monolith (and pray it doesn't mishap), face the door away from the enemy, and have the Lychguard walk out. That way, you would have a mountain of AV14 sitting between them and any guns hoping to shoot them for that one turn they'll be standing there with their thumbs up their metal asses. THEN on your next turn, you move the Monolith over, walk the Lychguard forward, and pray you get a decent assault roll.
...
But all that is a lot of points, just to do what other units in your army could do more effectively (hell, even Praetorians would have a better run).

So I guess to use Lychguard properly, you either have them babysit vulnerable units in defensive mode... or leave them out entirely.

Naw this doesn't work either, because to pull something through the portal it has to be done at the beginning of the movement phase and the turn the monolith deepstrikes it isn't on the board at the beginning of the movement phase. So the earliest this strategy can occur is; deepstrikie mono on turn 2, portal lytchguard on turn 3, then move monolith and potentially assault on turn 4. It's not that quick and leaves the lytchguard doing nothing for most of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Wrong. T4 2+ dies much faster then T5 3+/5+ RP to rate of fire weapons. Throw a Res Orb in (which is a given for LG) and it's not even close:

Bolters versus Terms or LG:

12(1÷2)(1÷6)=1 , so 12 Bolter Hits on average will kill a Term.

18(1÷3)(1÷3)(1÷2), so 18 Bolter Hits on average will kill an LG. Keep in mind these are hits, not shots, and the LG are 50% more resilient.

Also, your Pariah analogy is rather lacking. Pariahs were unusable. Pariahs couldn't use Monoliths, Night Scythes, didn't have WBB (RP), and couldn't attach Royal Court options, or get invulnerable saves. Their was also no such thing as Trazyn in the previous Codex that could make Pariahs scoring.



As far as how to use LG, the big menu items have been hit:

1.) Get them mobility, either Monos, Nigth Scythes, Veilteks (or Obyron) or some combination there of.
2.) Get them a Res Orb. They will attract the attention, might as well make the most out of it.
3.) Trazyn. Makes them scoring. Keeps them from being swamped. Doesn't die.

They are only a little more survivable, on average it takes 14 bolter shots to down 1. If you include a res.orb sure that goes up to 18 but the res.orb shoots their price way up and they become a lot more expensive than the terminators (but I agree, the only way to make them effective is to use a res.orb, it's one of the few units that the res.orb reliably makes its points back in). Plus they are more vulnerable to ap3 weapons such as rockets. Also when the whole squad is wiped it doesn't get it's RP rolls so not every model will have a chance to use them(its hard to factor that mathematically in but it's still worth noting).

My point was that the pariahs crippling downside was the fact they were super slow which is the same as the lytchguard, so they had no way to get into combat, which is what people have trouble doing with lytchguard. And their wargear was similar, all models wielding warscythes, and their stat lines were extremely similar, str5 t5 3+save. Sure the lytchguard have the RP but at the cost of 4 additional pts as well as all of the special abilities(which is how pariah were still used back in the day), as well as no gun(if the lytchguard had that gun then they would be viable, but they dont).

They are only a little more survivable, on average it takes 14 bolter shots to down 1. If you include a res.orb sure that goes up to 18 but the res.orb shoots their price way up and they become a lot more expensive than the terminators (but I agree, the only way to make them effective is to use a res.orb, it's one of the few units that the res.orb reliably makes its points back in). Plus they are more vulnerable to ap3 weapons such as rockets. Also when the whole squad is wiped it doesn't get it's RP rolls so not every model will have a chance to use them(its hard to factor that mathematically in but it's still worth noting).

Fair enough. Point I was trying to illustrate is they eat a pretty reasonable amount of bog standard bullets, as T5, 3+ and RP are perfect for the task.

My point was that the pariahs crippling downside was the fact they were super slow which is the same as the lytchguard, so they had no way to get into combat, which is what people have trouble doing with lytchguard. And their wargear was similar, all models wielding warscythes, and their stat lines were extremely similar, str5 t5 3+save. Sure the lytchguard have the RP but at the cost of 4 additional pts as well as all of the special abilities(which is how pariah were still used back in the day), as well as no gun(if the lytchguard had that gun then they would be viable, but they dont).

Right on. What I was hinting at is if Pariah's were "Necrons" in the old Codex, even at 45 (or more) points a piece, they would have been much better. You could have attached a Veil Lord with them and really increased their mobility.

As for the LG, NS, Monos and Veils are their mobility. The key with using them effectively is looking a few turns ahead and getting them to vital locations ahead of your opponent. Also, their are a variety of cryptek and lord options that synergize with them quite well. Quaketechs for instance, while not necessarily in the same unit as them, but slowing down their targets alongside them, can really help them catch their prey.

Oh boy...this thread again.

Lychguard are best used, in my humble opinion as mobile backfield hunters, while being paired with wraiths... The strategy works as so.

Obyron + S/B Lychguard (number is up to you, i go with an arbitrary 7)
x2 units of 6 Wraiths
x3 Annihilation Barges
Likely Zandrehk
Whatever else you want

Now, Turn one, move the wraiths aggressively up the board, trying to spread the enemy out.
Turn 2, deep strike lychguard behind enemy lines, preferably towards his strongest shooting unit (devs, havocs, heavy weapons teams, snipers, biovores, Tervigons ect)
Proceed to mulch your chosen target on your turn

Your opponent is now faced with an exceedingly hard job of target priority.

Focus the wraiths? They sacrifice a backfield unit a turn for sure, as the lychguard carve through their targets, and wraiths likely weather the fire, and tie up other units.

Focus the Lychguard? They have at least 12 wraiths in their faces, along with the shooting components of your army.

Try and deal with both? Best of both worlds, neither unit dies, laugh as you slaughter your opponent.

Try and deal with the Annihilation Barges absolutely blasting the hell outta their army? Well that was a poor choice too.

Lychguard as I run them hunt backfield units with heavy weapons, that rely on 3+ armor to stay alive. They don't counter TEQ, they get bogged down by GEQ

They almost always get their points back for me

 iGuy91 wrote:
Oh boy...this thread again.

Lychguard are best used, in my humble opinion as mobile backfield hunters, while being paired with wraiths... The strategy works as so.

Obyron + S/B Lychguard (number is up to you, i go with an arbitrary 7)
x2 units of 6 Wraiths
x3 Annihilation Barges
Likely Zandrehk
Whatever else you want

Now, Turn one, move the wraiths aggressively up the board, trying to spread the enemy out.
Turn 2, deep strike lychguard behind enemy lines, preferably towards his strongest shooting unit (devs, havocs, heavy weapons teams, snipers, biovores, Tervigons ect)
Proceed to mulch your chosen target on your turn

Your opponent is now faced with an exceedingly hard job of target priority.

Focus the wraiths? They sacrifice a backfield unit a turn for sure, as the lychguard carve through their targets, and wraiths likely weather the fire, and tie up other units.

Focus the Lychguard? They have at least 12 wraiths in their faces, along with the shooting components of your army.

Try and deal with both? Best of both worlds, neither unit dies, laugh as you slaughter your opponent.

Try and deal with the Annihilation Barges absolutely blasting the hell outta their army? Well that was a poor choice too.

Lychguard as I run them hunt backfield units with heavy weapons, that rely on 3+ armor to stay alive. They don't counter TEQ, they get bogged down by GEQ

They almost always get their points back for me

I guess one problem that I would have with that(maybe others as well), is that with that strategy you could just as easily perform it with a 3rd squad of wraiths. Wraiths are jump infantry so they can deep strike without the need for obyron. The wraiths will come at a significant discount and have similar survivablity as well as combat potential(especially against the units you are targeting) and you wouldn't need to have obyron in the list.

Why did nobody tell me they can deep strike? I've NEVER heard of them being able to do so before.

Because it is usually best to start them on the table. Remember if you go in reserves, the unit may not arrive till T4, and can't assault till T5, so having that to a full unit of wraiths would suck.