Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Had a discussion with a necron player about the results if i rolled a with a SAG while firing at him.

SAG states:
The tunnel opens a hole into the warp itself, and a ravening cloud of sentient daemonic ichor gushes out into the material realm. Any model hit by the gun this turn is removed from play. Vehicles take an automatic penetrating hit.

To me, this says "They go poof" or "Warped into another dimension"

We werent playing a game so no dice were thrown or time loss, but the argument went that even if i "poofed" his entire immortal squad (except one, since he must have 1 remaining) he could still roll dice to stand them back up. I do not know the wording on necrons for this action, but the wording for just says removed, not obliterated. The same goes for invul saves. Since im technically warping you into another reality/dimension/area/whatever, you dont get an invul save either right?

The argument was never resolved, and seeing as i like to run big meks with SAGS and hes one of the more frequent players in the group im bound to have this issue arouse during a game eventually.

It comes down to whether you believe there is actually a difference between "removed from play" and "removed from play as a casualty".

Personally, I don't think there's a difference and thus I think the reanimation protocols/everliving should be allowed.

We are a friendly group so i'd allow it anyway just to avoid the insanely huge argument from slowing our game down, but often i have to be a dick and go with RAW because, as orks, a lot of our stuff is funky if you dont play the rules and totally shaft us.

An example, off topic though, is vehicles and combat speed. It says i can fire 1 weapon normally if i move 6 or less (7 with RPJ) and the rest are snaps. Technically since vehicles have relentless, that means i can fire Ordance weapons. That one took me awhile to proove

BRB has a section for vehicles about what happens when they shoot ordinance. A quick sum up is yes you can move and fire it, but no matter how you move if you fire the ordinance weapon everything else must snap fire.

Yea i know i was just using that as an example of having to point out this rule overriding that rule etc etc to help me orkyness out.

Even if, per OP, i allowed invul saves and necron reanimations after rolling 6s, its still one hell of a devastating hit as any single model that fails to pass these rolls is byebye regardless of their power. Im just tryin to get clarification for tourny-rule situations.
Only unit i know off off the top of my head that has instakill immunity is ghazzy.

Removed from play doesn't allow reanimate, just like how jaws works.

Ghaz would still be removed if he was under the blast and you rolled double 6's. In fact, no saves are even taken, if you're under the blast you go away, you don't get a save.

Exactly how i thought about it, since no hits are actually taken technically.

Removed from play does allow you to come back, sometimes. The SW FAQ says you can come back from Lukas the Trickster's stasis field, and the SoB FAQ gives St.Celestine blanket permission to come back after anything that removes her from play. Then again, I'd imagine an Emperor-powered avenging angel can do just that.

As a necron player myself, I stick to strict wordings from the Codex. Meaning, the RP/EL rule only activates on the instance the model is "removed as a casualty". This game seems to heavilly rely on how they word everything, as it can change how something works completely or break the rule entirely. When they make the effort to add and specify "as a casualty" it means just that, if the death dealing weapon/model in question says "removed from play" or any variation of such where it doesn't actually do any damage to the model, they just go away.

tl;dr: RAW its debatable because of the choices of wording made by GW while HIWPI and hopefully many more would go the rout of they don't get to come back.

I mean heck, the RP fluff says they repair themselves on the battlefield; but that don't mean squat when the entire model gets ported into the warp or into the vacuum of space to float forever....so even RAI backs up the assumption they don't get to come back...

Spetulhu wrote:
Removed from play does allow you to come back, sometimes. The SW FAQ says you can come back from Lukas the Trickster's stasis field, and the SoB FAQ gives St.Celestine blanket permission to come back after anything that removes her from play. Then again, I'd imagine an Emperor-powered avenging angel can do just that.

Lukas is a bad example - his ability removes from play as a casualty.

rigeld2 wrote:
Lukas is a bad example - his ability removes from play as a casualty.

Then I stand corrected. St.Celestine is the only one able to come back no matter what in that case.

Spetulhu wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Lukas is a bad example - his ability removes from play as a casualty.

Then I stand corrected. St.Celestine is the only one able to come back no matter what in that case.

Thawn can as well, his rule is worded the same way as St. Celestine.

Also, take note of the fact that it removes vehicles as well, RAW.

Spetulhu wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Lukas is a bad example - his ability removes from play as a casualty.

Then I stand corrected. St.Celestine is the only one able to come back no matter what in that case.

Something could be read into the fact that they worded Jaws and Lukas's last laugh differently and clarified that Lukas can allow models to come back while they never FAQ'd jaws to say that models such as Necron with RP/EL could come back.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Lukas is a bad example - his ability removes from play as a casualty.

Then I stand corrected. St.Celestine is the only one able to come back no matter what in that case.

Thawn can as well, his rule is worded the same way as St. Celestine.

Also, take note of the fact that it removes vehicles as well, RAW.

Then may have the same wording but he doesn't have the FAQ allowing it.

Actually i found my answer in the FAQ, surprisingly. Need to read this better in the future

Q: Are models that are immune to instant death (such as those with Eternal Warrior) removed from the table when hit by a shokk attack gun that rolls a "Raargh" result?
A: Yes, unless they are gargantuan creatures or super-heavy vehicles (see warhammer 40k apoc book).

So, theres my answer lol. Anything and everything simply disappears, regardless of their power unless theyre apoc level stuff or a vehicle (since i doubt this QnA removes the codex vehicles auto pen hit for simply disappears as well)

No invuls, no revives, no nothing. I imagine the Sisters chick can still come back since thats a very unique rule.

Vineheart01 wrote:
Actually i found my answer in the FAQ, surprisingly. Need to read this better in the future

Q: Are models that are immune to instant death (such as those with Eternal Warrior) removed from the table when hit by a shokk attack gun that rolls a "Raargh" result?
A: Yes, unless they are gargantuan creatures or super-heavy vehicles (see warhammer 40k apoc book).

So, theres my answer lol. Anything and everything simply disappears, regardless of their power unless theyre apoc level stuff or a vehicle (since i doubt this QnA removes the codex vehicles auto pen hit for simply disappears as well)

No invuls, no revives, no nothing. I imagine the Sisters chick can still come back since thats a very unique rule.

It still removes vehicles.
Poorly written ftw.
A vehicle is a model, so it takes a pen and is RFG simo.

Vineheart01 wrote:
Q: Are models that are immune to instant death (such as those with Eternal Warrior) removed from the table when hit by a shokk attack gun that rolls a "Raargh" result?
A: Yes, unless they are gargantuan creatures or super-heavy vehicles (see warhammer 40k apoc book).

That question is a bit silly in the first place. Eternal warrior only protects you from Instant Death, which the SAG 66 doesn't cause - no wounds were inflicted.

Spetulhu wrote:

Vineheart01 wrote:
Q: Are models that are immune to instant death (such as those with Eternal Warrior) removed from the table when hit by a shokk attack gun that rolls a "Raargh" result?
A: Yes, unless they are gargantuan creatures or super-heavy vehicles (see warhammer 40k apoc book).

That question is a bit silly in the first place. Eternal warrior only protects you from Instant Death, which the SAG 66 doesn't cause - no wounds were inflicted.

Thats the origin of all the confusion and bull around the SAG 66. Yes it doesnt actually say they take Str D hits, but it doesnt exactly say it simply vanishes.

Bet hes going to bring up "Reanimation isnt invul save" but to me its the same damn thing since its either prevents death or reverts it on the same lousy dice roll. Big diff.
EDIT: Actually i'd say reanimation is worse than invul unless you can get invul and reanimation (which i dont think necron have any...or atleast i havnt seen one) because if i blast you before you can shoot me, you cant shoot back even if you stand back up. Invul save you just go "Ha! Iz dat all ya got ye git?" and can attack afterwords.

EDIT2: What would be the point of auto-Pen hit on vehicles if its getting removed anyway? Thats what makes me think it doesnt instantly remove them, however AP2 even against a landraider means 5+ its gone anyway, 4+ if its open topped vehicle instead. Good odds to make it go away anyways.

Vineheart01 wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:


EDIT2: What would be the point of auto-Pen hit on vehicles if its getting removed anyway? Thats what makes me think it doesnt instantly remove them, however AP2 even against a landraider means 5+ its gone anyway, 4+ if its open topped vehicle instead. Good odds to make it go away anyways.

A vehicle is a model so it is removed. A vehicle is a vehicle so it takes a pen as well.

When it gets removed, whatever is inside of it gos too ...

Mmmm while it makes sense i could see that causing issues. If it didnt have the "vehicles automatically take a pen hit" in there i would say yea vehicles too but .... eh i dont think it does. I'd agree on the crew if it was open topped lol

Vineheart01 wrote:
Mmmm while it makes sense i could see that causing issues. If it didnt have the "vehicles automatically take a pen hit" in there i would say yea vehicles too but .... eh i dont think it does. I'd agree on the crew if it was open topped lol

It simply does both RAW, it's hard to try to say it cannot as it says it does both. :Shrug:

the way its worded in the codex, its "but, vehicles take an automatic pen hit" since it says it after every model vanishes.

Vehicles dont have invul saves so the question in the FAQ doesnt apply either

Vineheart01 wrote:
the way its worded in the codex, its "but, vehicles take an automatic pen hit" since it says it after every model vanishes.

Vehicles dont have invul saves so the question in the FAQ doesnt apply either

"Any model hit by the gun this turn is removed from play. Vehicles take an automatic penetrating hit." Pg 35 C:Orks

Is a vehicle a model?
Yes, so apply both results.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Vineheart01 wrote:
the way its worded in the codex, its "but, vehicles take an automatic pen hit" since it says it after every model vanishes.

Vehicles dont have invul saves so the question in the FAQ doesnt apply either

"Any model hit by the gun this turn is removed from play. Vehicles take an automatic penetrating hit." Pg 35 C:Orks

Is a vehicle a model?
Yes, so apply both results.

RAI that seems like they meant to say Any non vehicle model hit...

because saying any model hit in the first sentence makes the second sentence wasted ink.

 DeathReaper wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Vineheart01 wrote:
the way its worded in the codex, its "but, vehicles take an automatic pen hit" since it says it after every model vanishes.

Vehicles dont have invul saves so the question in the FAQ doesnt apply either

"Any model hit by the gun this turn is removed from play. Vehicles take an automatic penetrating hit." Pg 35 C:Orks

Is a vehicle a model?
Yes, so apply both results.

RAI that seems like they meant to say Any non vehicle model hit...

because saying any model hit in the first sentence makes the second sentence wasted ink.

Similar to what was done with the KFF. It effects vehicles twice over due to it's poor wording.

Sure it may be intended to pen it, but this is orks so I have no idea

The KFF was different, it said "All units within 6 inches... get a 5+ cover save, [Vehicles are obscured.]"

Obscured for vehicles was a 4+ in 5th, so vehicles got a better effect than everything else.

For the SAG Double6 the second sentence is literally not needed as the rule reads as if vehicles get removed. no need for them to take a penetrating hit.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The KFF was different, it said "All units within 6 inches... get a 5+ cover save, [Vehicles are obscured.]"

Obscured for vehicles was a 4+ in 5th, so vehicles got a better effect than everything else.

For the SAG Double6 the second sentence is literally not needed as the rule reads as if vehicles get removed. no need for them to take a penetrating hit.

Orks was a 4th ed codex.

Think we're sayin the same thing tho

Ork was on the cusp of 5th, but that really does not matter as the SAG Double6 literally is wasted words for the second sentence if any model hit was to be removed.

agreed the second sentence is completely wasted ink if its not "but" or "however" in addition to the all models.

Quite frankly i dont care bout the vehicle part, i use this thing against infantry or bigger infantry (elites without 3-4+ invuls) because of the crappy BS im bound to miss a single target but hit a large mob (except last night where i rolled scatter left 12 inches which was off the table lol)

EDIT: Actually, side question, if i use an Ammo runt would i reroll the power as well since "technically" its a second shot replacing the first?

I play orks as well, love the KFF and so far my typical 'odd roll' is the double-5 'Zoink, teleport in assault'... So I like the Junka with a deffrolla, heh...

Anyway, about double-6 it's pretty clear to me a vehicle isn't straight-out removed, it suffers a pen instead. SAG's effects table is full of unclear cases, so don't try to strictly RAW that thing. it's a bit of a mess. We're orks, we slam a rivet in it, shoot a lawyer and move on.
On infantry/big monsters, no saves or invul saves are taken as this causes no wounds. How does it work on Necrons? Not sure, I'd discuss it with the necron player early in the game for safety's sake. And remember the double-1 result is similar.

Now about the ammo runt, I don't remember if I saw it in a FAQ or in a discussion, but it was clear the runt gives no provision to reroll the effect of the SAG. You only reroll the scatter and distance. That makes the runt pretty useful:
-Step one: place large blast
-Step two: check for SAG's effect
-Step three: Decide if it's worth using the runt. Effect stays the same.

That's how our Local game club ork players play it (including myself)