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Had a quick question about the good old boon rules. If a champion makes a kill in a challange and the opponent kills him as well do you (A) get to roll on the boon table? (B) and if you do roll does spawnhood, dark apotheosis, and bloated counteract the kill made by the opponent? Thanks in advance for the help.

I got into a pretty lengthy discussion about this before. There were good arguments on both sides, and iirc then the outcome was there would be no roll on the table, so no daemon prince, or spawn, etc. But I would absolutely allow it I was asked.

You roll on the boon table immediately after the opposing character is killed. It might come down to who's turn it is to help decide the order of things. Simultaneous deaths have always been touchy with things that immediately happen.

If going at the same init, you are killed the same time you kill the opposing.
What is killing? To me RAaC would be killing, so you would no longer have the model on the field.

I tend to concur; if the model is dead, it's not going to be able to benefit from the Boon.

If the aspirant was transformed into a daemon prince or spawn then it'd have more wounds - I think there is also one boon that restores all lost wounds as well.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If the aspirant was transformed into a daemon prince or spawn then it'd have more wounds - I think there is also one boon that restores all lost wounds as well.

Of course if they both die at the same initiative the Boon will have no effect as the model is no longer on the table.

I thought the effect of the boon happens immediately though.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I thought the effect of the boon happens immediately though.

immediately upon slaying the opponent, which happens when the model is removed, which is the same time as the model that would get the boon is removed, so he is not around to receive that boon as both models are removed at the same time.

I don't know... I'll have to read the rules to make sure bro.

I'm a Chaos collector but I think I would allow it if I was on the opposing side. The idea of your failure cursing you to spawndom or success resurrecting you as a daemon prince is the kind of thing the Chaos gods love and I think that the rarity of the these circumstances would make it worth letting them have the roll, as far as serious games go though I'm pretty sure you're supposed too accept the character is dead.

Reason I ask is both arguments have weight. As a dead model is removed but the boon roll would be very true to the fluff. Besides the odds are so astronomical that ya roll one of the three chances. The dark gods really gatta be smiling on you to luck out like that.

Rolling on the boon table... I dont see any requirement about being alive at the time or on the board.

 Tomb King wrote:
Rolling on the boon table... I dont see any requirement about being alive at the time or on the board.

^100% true.

Gift Of Mutation happens before deployment, therefore no models would be on the table.

I don't see anywhere in the rulebook that you can't roll on the boon table without a model on the board, infact this happens frequently with gift of mutation.

The problem is that when it asks you to "replace" a model with a DP OR Chaos spawn.

You can't replace something that is no longer there.

This would be a super cool event, rewarding a champion who has just killed an important enemy hero with daemonhood but there wouldn't be any set of circumstances where I'd let an opponent do this on their side of the board.

Boon table is cool enough, replacing a non-existant hero with an even more power daemon prince is just pure cheese.

No one is saying you cannot roll for a boon on a model not on the table. The argument I'd you cannot roll a boon for a dead model.

 Happyjew wrote:
No one is saying you cannot roll for a boon on a model not on the table. The argument I'd you cannot roll a boon for a dead model.

A rule states to do something when this happens. There are no rules that state that model has to be alive. Your argument is based on a standard you set without rules to back it up.

The model has been removed. BIt difficult to apply the results to a model that has been removed.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The model has been removed. BIt difficult to apply the results to a model that has been removed.

Boon 32 restores the models wounds.

After the model was removed as a casualty. The model has been removed, find permission to place the model back

Page and para

nosferatu1001 wrote:
After the model was removed as a casualty. The model has been removed, find permission to place the model back

Page and para

When a model is slain when is it removed? The boon table happens immediately when an enemy character is slain.

 Tomb King wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
After the model was removed as a casualty. The model has been removed, find permission to place the model back

Page and para

When a model is slain when is it removed? The boon table happens immediately when an enemy character is slain.

Slay a model, then roll on the table. So it's the step after killing a character. A which point, the character is already dead from the previous action.
Rolling on the table isn't simultaneous, it's the step just after.

It say immediately... We can argue what is the definition of 'immediately' and how to properly apply the term all day and that is fine by me. To me it means as soon as the enemy character is slain which occurs prior to removing the Chaos champion.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It say immediately... We can argue what is the definition of 'immediately' and how to properly apply the term all day and that is fine by me. To me it means as soon as the enemy character is slain which occurs prior to removing the Chaos champion.

If they die at the same exact time, they'd both be removed at the same time. There would be no model/rule to trigger as the Chaos Lord has been RMAaC.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It say immediately... We can argue what is the definition of 'immediately' and how to properly apply the term all day and that is fine by me. To me it means as soon as the enemy character is slain which occurs prior to removing the Chaos champion.

The underlined is not true.

The two characters are removed simultaneously at the remove casualties step.

Once you remove casualties then you get to roll as that is when the enemy character is slain.

Remember we are talking about two characters in a challenge killing each other at the same initiative value.

yeah i'm on the camp of you cant roll the boon after the model is dead

HOWEVER narratively speaking a hero coming back as a daemon is pretty sound for chaos - karn the betrayer was slain and brought back and in order for a hero to become a daemon their mortal soul is forfeit (ie they die)

Plus it doesn't say at the end of combat. It just says if your model with the champion of chaos rule kills another model roll. Like I said before you only have 1 chance to survive and 2 to be elevated into a demon prince or a spawn. It really needs to be errated just to solve the debate.

 scythewing wrote:
Plus it doesn't say at the end of combat. It just says if your model with the champion of chaos rule kills another model roll. Like I said before you only have 1 chance to survive and 2 to be elevated into a demon prince or a spawn. It really needs to be errated just to solve the debate.

The underlined does not matter, because even if you get those results that model is still not on the table at the time of the result.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It say immediately... We can argue what is the definition of 'immediately' and how to properly apply the term all day and that is fine by me. To me it means as soon as the enemy character is slain which occurs prior to removing the Chaos champion.

Except, of course, that isnt what the rules say.

They are slain when you Remove Casualties

Why on earth would the chaos gods award a looser with a boon.