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I don't see why them being gay/bi/lesbian would convince me to not read about them.

Actually, I think I would want to read about Grifen and Magot. They're hilarious and badass.

 kenshin620 wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Lots of people play Dark Angels.

Darn it, you beat me to it

And do you realize the amount of people that are convinced some SoB are lesbos? Then again those are also the types to make any female warrior at least bi....

Either she's fanservice to these people, or they think she should get raped and "put in her place".

I wish I was making this up.

It DOES matter to a lot of people. Up until a couple decades ago, it wasn't even common for gay/lesbian characters to SURVIVE their stories, never mind actually be positive characters.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
It DOES matter to a lot of people. Up until a couple decades ago, it wasn't even common for gay/lesbian characters to SURVIVE their stories, never mind actually be positive characters.

Was old literature full of homosexual people dying?

Yes.

Let's not get dragged in to some nonsensical quote pyramid. The functional question of this thread is as follows:

Cogs wrote:
Would you be interested in reading fiction about a character and if the character was strong in the game would you add him or her to your lists?

 BryllCream wrote:
I haven't read any of those books

You've never read Les Miserables and you consider yourself well-read? Ignoring the [in]famous Brokeback Mountain (and the film adaptation) and the Goldfinger 007 novel, or the Christian church's long use of "they died because they're gay" influencing writers to do the same, I could point out the Motion Pictures Film Code, which actually made it illegal to depict homosexuals without killing them.

What if one or two lines simply described the character defending his/her [same sex] loved one against some awesome threat as part of their rise to glory? You people keep talking about how "it always is just done for marketing", but it doesn't HAVE to be.

For example, a guardswoman who fought off a Tyranid warrior single-handedly to save her wounded lesbian lover and eventually rose up to the rank of captain / general / etc because of her ferocity and tactical prowess, or an Eldar farseer/autarch who held a choke point by himself in order to prevent the enemy army from reaching the shelter where his male lover was-- and did it successfully to such an extent that even generations afterwards there are still stories of the death that he wrought upon them in that valley/tunnel/etc.

weeble1000 wrote:
i am indifferent, except to say that I would love to live in a world where it simply wouldn't occur to anyone to ask this question.

There should be nothing "special" about an individual's sexual orientation, and ideally that would be reflected in popular culture.

I kind of feel the same way... but at the same time, this attitude is often used as an excuse to exclude people based on the same attributes that shouldn't matter.

Comic books, for example, are mostly written and drawn by men-- and for many of them, if they never thought about equality issues, they'd never include women in their comics unless they needed them for what they percieved was "womanly things", which for a long time was associated with little more than being a victim in series that had any action. If they never thought "well gak, I have no female characters, I should include some", we'd not even have TOKEN female characters, never mind ones actually doing anything, thus having the equality in writing set back even further than with our current status.

Same with homosexuality. Many people just don't think about it. And that's fine really, it's not a big impact to many peoples' lives... but it still makes for a culture of exclusion when there is nothing written about the group you belong to. It gives the impression of "you're irrelevant because you're homosexual and not heterosexual" or "you're not allowed to be a badass because you're a woman" or "only white people can be action heroes". And that really isn't the impression we want to give.

So it's much healthier for a person to say "I just realized that I haven't written any [minority] characters in to my story... so I think this character who doesn't die horribly and ends up doing awesome things will be [minority], without changing any other part of them." than to just not think about them and unintentionally exclude them.

tl;dr: Writers should think about what they write MORE, not less.

 btr75 wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Lots of people play Dark Angels.

And Ultramarines too.

Actually I could say Space Marines, period, really, given how Space Marines reproduce they're basically a male-only species, much like the Asari in Mass Effect are female-only.

[/tries to get through this without viciously mocking the Space Marine reproductive cycle]

 Dentry wrote:
Just don't talk about it. We don't want any problems.

Yeah, but even by not talkingabout it, you're causing problems by marginalizing the minority. So it's better to man up, as it were, and face the music-- and just plain learn to write better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlexHolker wrote:
But that does not automatically make them homosexual.

I am not going to be able to respond to this without posting something tasteless.

About Space Marines, I mean.

Suffice it to say, don't think too deeply on the method of Astartes reproduction.

Which is really just a cop-out. Writing bland, monotonous, homogeneous characters just to avoid offending someone will end up offending everyone.

 gunslingerpro wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Which is really just a cop-out. Writing bland, monotonous, homogeneous characters just to avoid offending someone will end up offending everyone.

Not what I said. At all.

Writing characters that are homosexual only in passing, as per your example, is just as likely to receive those criticisms I stated as the 'bland, monotonous, homogenous' characters you refer to.

I strongly disagree with such defeatist sentiments.

Actually it does. If you're going to be criticized anyway, it is better to be inclusive than exclusive.

 draugadan wrote:
The problem is the whole concept of defining people by their sexual orientation.

That's not even really what's being talked about here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gunslingerpro wrote:
Not when criticism affects your livelihood, i.e. the success of your game/novel.

Again, according to you, you're going to be criticized no matter what. Why be exclusive? It just lessens the value of your work.

If you're going to be criticized either way, it won't effect your livelihood to be inclusive.

455_PWR wrote:
"Sexuality is an extremely important aspect of one's identity."

Yup, that's why 90% of the population runs around screaming they are heterosexual...

While you intended it to be a sarcastic statement, this is something that is actually quite true. You may not notice it, because you are heterosexual and don't pay attention to what's going on around you, but yes, most of the population DOES effectively run around basically saying "I'm straight and proud of it". And there are plenty of tee-shirts to that extent. Seriously, ever see one of those "my face is up here" tee-shirts certain women wear? It plays off of heterosexual pop culture. And then there's the various smarmy tees that certain men wear, such as "Mustache Rides: $5000 dollars" or some other nonsense. Again, heterosexual pop culture.

 Meade wrote:

 Stormphoenix wrote:
What does someone's sexuality have anything to do with their ability to shoot someone in the face?

A lot. It is a motivating force, let's say.

If you love someone, and just happen to be fighting on the front line with them, you might just fight a little bit harder.

See: Grifen and Magot, a lesbian couple from the Cain series.

I have a lot of complaints about the Cain books, but they're still an example of depicting homosexual characters doing awesome things, while still focusing on the main narrative which didn't involve sexuality.

 Kaldor wrote:
The Black Library authors aren't, generally speaking, good enough that a characters sexuality becomes an issue.

Black Library authors talk about sex/sexuality all the time. It's just usually straight sex. Soldiers banging hookers. People getting/being married, having children. Attempts at seduction... but usually only heterosexual seduction. And so on and so forth.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Only if he isnt one of those types of gays who goes arounds and flaunts it. I dont mind gays, but that gets on my nerves.

But it's okay for straight people to flaunt it (And yes, people flaunt their sexuality ALL THE TIME, regardless of sexuality).

 verterdegete wrote:
Yes, gay people in WH40k would be a problem for me. Actually, any of that liberal/politically correct crap would be a problem for me.

So I take it that O'Shaserra offends you?

Seriously, dismissing something as "politically correct"? This isn't the '90s.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
No problem for me , willow is one of my favorite characters from buffy, a good story is a good story.

Gay characters in 40k , the imperium is like the middle ages on steroids, homosexuality would be seen as a mark of chaos (or slaneesh?)

Not really. The few times it's mentioned in BL novels it's made out to not be a big deal.

Better tell the Log Cabin Republicans that their conservative cards are revoked.

Rather than whining about the thread, can we please either stay on topic? At least remotely so?

 Meade wrote:
@ Melissia: The Cain series? Why am I not surprised. Didn't get around to reading that one yet...

It's a classic. It has some problems with the lore (namely, Mitchel can't write likable devout characters to save his own ass), but it's still one of the better pieces in BL literature.

Oddly enough, the characters who AREN'T Cain are probably developed more than Cain is-- the various Valhallans, including Grifen and Magot, especially.

Another comparison would be a game like League of Legend or Awesomenauts, if I get the gist of your arguments-- games where each individual character has their own interesting background and history rather than simply being part of an army.

 helium42 wrote:
I'll remember this the next time I attend a heterosexual pride parade.

Happens all the time. They aren't CALLED straight pride parades, but they are that regardless.

And yes, the majority of heterosexuals do NOT understand how they're pushing their heterosexuality in everyone's faces. I say this without judgement of it, it's hardly their fault, considering that they're simply following cultural norms.

 Melissia wrote:
Another comparison would be a game like League of Legend or Awesomenauts, if I get the gist of your arguments-- games where each individual character has their own interesting background and history rather than simply being part of an army.

Ah, there we go, found it again.

For example, would you use this skin for your Taric?

I would. Hehehehe.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8489/8249508041_094e86f6c7_b.jpg

I'm fairly certain that IS the normal skin for most female characters in these types of games. And yet I still sometimes play them.

 helium42 wrote:
Do you care to offer an example of a straight-pride parade?

Any parade where they show straight couples. Which is just about every single one of them, really. The overwhelming majority of parades are planned with heteronormative values in mind. Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade just to throw out a random example. Heterosexuality is celebrated every day, on TV, in books, in games, in the media, and yes, in parades as well.

The fact is, homosexuals are an oppressed minority. Therefor they DO have a need for this kind of thing, to try to express that "it's okay to be homosexual". However, heterosexuals do not have that need. Because heterosexuality is the norm, no one is questioning whether or not it's okay to be heterosexual-- it's assumed.

 Buzzsaw wrote:
the idea of argument through moral superiority

Funny, most of the people trying to claim homosexuals are evil are trying to use that.

I'm not, however, condemning people. I am expressing the desire that writing becomes more inclusive so that more people can enjoy it.

Cogs wrote:
As this has developed I am now wondering more why is it that most characters in these games are white males?

Lazy writing and misplaced marketing ideologies.

edit: [/puts on flame-retardant suit...]

 Manchu wrote:
a business person ought to consider taking advantage of that market.

Sure, that's easy to say in theory, but in practice, it frequently doesn't work that way.

The simple fact is, in the context of table top games, you might as well call your Space Marines female... because under all that power armor, how could you know?

That would be a valid objection if they were not specifically stated not to be in the lore.

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
a business person ought to consider taking advantage of that market.

Sure, that's easy to say in theory, but in practice, it frequently doesn't work that way.

I don't think you're right about that. Remember that "consider" does not mean "take action."

Given the pointlessly misogynistic nature of the overwhelming majority of many attempts to market towards women, I don't even give them that much credit.

 Manchu wrote:
No one determined to find out that they are right every turned out to be wrong in their own eyes.

Amusing that you would say that; I would say the same about you.

But more importantly, marketing as a practice has a long history of making people out to be idiots, especially women. History is absolutely rife with it.

AAA titles are rarely noted for their quality writing.