Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

455_PWR wrote:
"Sexuality is an extremely important aspect of one's identity."

Yup, that's why 90% of the population runs around screaming they are heterosexual..... or wearing pro-hetrosexual t-shirts

I would disagree. Sex used to be a private issue between a couple. So our parents and their parents had no identities? These days people are more open about their sex lives, but it is still irrelevant as to who a person is at their core. We are all equal right? I am who I am no matter who I love.

Getting back on topic, the sexuality of our characters is IRRELEVANT in the gaming world... being one reason why it isn't prevailent on these forums, in our codex/rules, books, etc. If it is important to one or two people, make up your own characters lore and there ya go! I enjoy my sexuality as much as the next guy, but do not force sexuality of any type on my games thank you.

I think what was meant is that for human beings, sex is an incredibly significant part of our lives. Sex, as in sexual activity or ones perceptions of it, not strictly gender, defines one's identity and significantly impacts our relationships with others. We constantly talk about sex. Even broad, sweeping cultural differences can be related to a group's understanding of and beliefs about sexual activity and procreation.

Being a fan of science fiction, I have often wondered how human beings might seem to aliens with different relationships to sex and procreation, such as reproducing asexually or something. Humans would very well seem like bonobo chimps, ing constantly and building their politics and culture on a bedrock of sexual intercourse.

455_PWR wrote:
"Sexuality is an extremely important aspect of one's identity."

Yup, that's why 90% of the population runs around screaming they are heterosexual...

While you intended it to be a sarcastic statement, this is something that is actually quite true. You may not notice it, because you are heterosexual and don't pay attention to what's going on around you, but yes, most of the population DOES effectively run around basically saying "I'm straight and proud of it". And there are plenty of tee-shirts to that extent. Seriously, ever see one of those "my face is up here" tee-shirts certain women wear? It plays off of heterosexual pop culture. And then there's the various smarmy tees that certain men wear, such as "Mustache Rides: $5000 dollars" or some other nonsense. Again, heterosexual pop culture.

 Meade wrote:

 Stormphoenix wrote:
What does someone's sexuality have anything to do with their ability to shoot someone in the face?

A lot. It is a motivating force, let's say.

If you love someone, and just happen to be fighting on the front line with them, you might just fight a little bit harder.

See: Grifen and Magot, a lesbian couple from the Cain series.

I have a lot of complaints about the Cain books, but they're still an example of depicting homosexual characters doing awesome things, while still focusing on the main narrative which didn't involve sexuality.

 Kaldor wrote:
The Black Library authors aren't, generally speaking, good enough that a characters sexuality becomes an issue.

Black Library authors talk about sex/sexuality all the time. It's just usually straight sex. Soldiers banging hookers. People getting/being married, having children. Attempts at seduction... but usually only heterosexual seduction. And so on and so forth.

The sexuality of a character is irrelevant to me. What a character likes to see naked has no relevance at all on whether or not I like the character. Nobility, honesty, self secrifice and most importantly, the ability to drag himself up from the dirt and royally kick some ass are what make a character likeable to me, not the gender of their sexual interests.

Druss the legend is a legend because of his iron code!

"Never violate a woman, nor harm a child. Do not lie, cheat or steal. These things are for lesser men. Protect the weak against the evil strong. And never allow thoughts of gain to lead you into the pursuit of evil."

If he does all that gak, I'm going to think he's awesome, it doesn't matter if his wife is called Rowenna or Rowan.

So, yes I would.

Only if he isnt one of those types of gays who goes arounds and flaunts it. I dont mind gays, but that gets on my nerves.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Only if he isnt one of those types of gays who goes arounds and flaunts it. I dont mind gays, but that gets on my nerves.

But it's okay for straight people to flaunt it (And yes, people flaunt their sexuality ALL THE TIME, regardless of sexuality).

Yes, gay people in WH40k would be a problem for me. Actually, any of that liberal/politically correct crap would be a problem for me.

 verterdegete wrote:
Yes, gay people in WH40k would be a problem for me. Actually, any of that liberal/politically correct crap would be a problem for me.

So I take it that O'Shaserra offends you?

Seriously, dismissing something as "politically correct"? This isn't the '90s.

No problem for me , willow is one of my favorite characters from buffy, a good story is a good story.

Gay characters in 40k , the imperium is like the middle ages on steroids, homosexuality would be seen as a mark of chaos (or slaneesh?)

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
No problem for me , willow is one of my favorite characters from buffy, a good story is a good story.

Gay characters in 40k , the imperium is like the middle ages on steroids, homosexuality would be seen as a mark of chaos (or slaneesh?)

Not really. The few times it's mentioned in BL novels it's made out to not be a big deal.

 Melissia wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
No problem for me , willow is one of my favorite characters from buffy, a good story is a good story.

Gay characters in 40k , the imperium is like the middle ages on steroids, homosexuality would be seen as a mark of chaos (or slaneesh?)

Not really. The few times it's mentioned in BL novels it's made out to not be a big deal.

In fact, I think one of the books (the one about the storm troopers. Terrible, I know) had a lord commissar who was hinted at being gay. They never said anything, but it seemed like it.

On the question at hand; I wouldn't care as long as it is written well.

 verterdegete wrote:
Yes, gay people in WH40k would be a problem for me. Actually, any of that liberal/politically correct crap would be a problem for me.

I didn't realize sexual orientation was a political statement.

Better tell the Log Cabin Republicans that their conservative cards are revoked.

I would have absolutely no problem whatsoever playing a gay or lesbian character in my army if they were good.

And as for Gay and Lesbian culture I have no problem with a person loving whoever they want to regardless of sex as long as I don't have to watch lol.

@ Melissia: The Cain series? Why am I not surprised. Didn't get around to reading that one yet...

The best example of what I was referring to was that movie Alexander that came out a few years ago (with Val Kilmer). There is a homosexual relationship he has with Hephaestion one of his generals. I don't mind stuff like that being written into sci-fi military stories because it adds complexity, and it doesn't have to be the typical flaming queer stereotype... these guys were probably a lot more manly than most people alive today. It doesn't have to be politically correct nonsense. Actually they were very misogynistic, especially the Spartans.

As for the Imperium being like the middle ages, yes and no. The different planets are so far separated from each other, and even if the main culture of the Imperium did not officially approve of homosexuality, there are vast sectors, rogue traders, Inquisitors, etc that can pretty much do what they want as long as they pay the Imperial Tithe and don't worship chaos. Sorry but being gay does not equal worshipping Slaanesh. You can totally be gay for the emperor (I think we all are a little bit... I mean, he's the Emperor. Being gay does not translate into making paintings from your own poo and getting off on hurting yourself.

What is exactly is the point of this thread?

There's three kinds of people who post:

a) people who have no prob with it, drop their opinion

b) people who have a prob with it, drop their opinion

c) people who immediately jump at people in b. I can quite frankly say that I am utterly disgusted by those people. I am not going to call names, everyone who has been reading the thread knows who I am referring too.

It's hilarious how those people pretend being all good and bright shining knights in the dark of homophobia (which is a slowed term to begin with...I don't call homosexuals heterophobe either) but at the same time, immediately jump at other's throats when they DARE disagreeing with their very own personal opinion.

This is NOT a thread about whether homosexuality is right or wrong or sth. It's about whether one would like to read about such characters or not. Everyone who reacts like I described above is just as thick-minded as every conservative they so seem to hate. Even worse: at least conservatives openly state their opinion and do not act like hypocrits because someone disagrees with them.

Actually, I'd say that those people are heterophobe as hell.

The funny thing is: how many people in here jumped at those saying they do not have a problem with it? Do you see any post where people say "OMG how can you like homosexual characters??LOLOLWTF!". There is none. On the other hand, everyone who said the opposite is frowned upon.

Again, that's not valid for all people in here. But the handful of those guys in here are a shameful sight to behold.

And in the end, I fail to see the point of a thread where you either agree with an opinion or get yelled at.

Rather than whining about the thread, can we please either stay on topic? At least remotely so?

 Meade wrote:
@ Melissia: The Cain series? Why am I not surprised. Didn't get around to reading that one yet...

It's a classic. It has some problems with the lore (namely, Mitchel can't write likable devout characters to save his own ass), but it's still one of the better pieces in BL literature.

Oddly enough, the characters who AREN'T Cain are probably developed more than Cain is-- the various Valhallans, including Grifen and Magot, especially.

@All: As a reminder, Rule Two is Stay On Topic and Rule Three is No Spam. Please do not spam the forum with off-topic comments about whether a thread should or should not exist. If you have such concerns, please use the modalert button (yellow triangle) found at the top right of every post or send a PM to a moderator. Please keep in mind that reporting a thread or post does not guarantee moderator action. In any case, please refrain from breaking our few, simple, and reasonable rules. Thanks!

So I would like to refocus my question. I know this is mostly a 40k forum, but I was not thinking about playing a gay space marine because that doesn't matter. I was wondering more for a game like Mailifuex where each character has a back story and is very unique from each other. I would hope that the author would be tasteful in their writing to ensure that the character was not a 2D stereotype. I'm really happy with most of the feed back I have gotten on this topic. Thanks.

Another comparison would be a game like League of Legend or Awesomenauts, if I get the gist of your arguments-- games where each individual character has their own interesting background and history rather than simply being part of an army.

Melissia that is exactly what I wanted to find out.

I think if we can accept Malekith sleeping with his mother in Warhammer, then the notion of someone in a wargaming fictional universe being gay would be a minor footnote. As other's have said though, it would be dependent on the story being about the setting and a pertinent story rather than focusing on the sexuality or devolving into an attempt to shock with badly written erotica.

Perhaps my favorite comic team are The Authority and two of the characters, Apollo and The Midnighter are in a gay relationship. It's well written and drawn and I've never had the slightest problem with the lifestyle choice of the heroes who are busy tearing the arms and legs off neofacist space demons.

Similarly, Devlin Waugh, a popular 2000ad character (the only character in that esteemed comic's long history to knock Dredd off the number 1 popularity spot), takes all the gay stereotypes, campy humor and rolls with them. Great character, very funny without being insulting to gay or straight people.

As long as they aren't oh-so-horribly stereotypical that they become a joke in model form.

Let's do an experiment.

Andrew Ryan was a multi-millionaire who became disillusioned with what he described as the "parasitic" economic and moral aspects of of modern society. He therefore put his considerable fortune to work building the city called Rapture beneath the waves of the North Atlantic. He envisioned a society in which artists, scientists, and business men could realize their genius unfettered by legal or moral constraints, answerable only to their own success or failure in the marketplace. Ryan preferred to have sex with women.

Andrew Ryan was a multi-millionaire who became disillusioned with what he described as the "parasitic" economic and moral aspects of of modern society. He therefore put his considerable fortune to work building the city called Rapture beneath the waves of the North Atlantic. He envisioned a society in which artists, scientists, and business men could realize their genius unfettered by legal or moral constraints, answerable only to their own success or failure in the marketplace. Ryan preferred to have sex with men.

Which character is more interesting?

 Melissia wrote:

455_PWR wrote:
"Sexuality is an extremely important aspect of one's identity."

Yup, that's why 90% of the population runs around screaming they are heterosexual...

While you intended it to be a sarcastic statement, this is something that is actually quite true. You may not notice it, because you are heterosexual and don't pay attention to what's going on around you, but yes, most of the population DOES effectively run around basically saying "I'm straight and proud of it". And there are plenty of tee-shirts to that extent. Seriously, ever see one of those "my face is up here" tee-shirts certain women wear? It plays off of heterosexual pop culture. And then there's the various smarmy tees that certain men wear, such as "Mustache Rides: $5000 dollars" or some other nonsense. Again, heterosexual pop culture.

While you intended it to be a sarcastic statement, this is something that is actually quite true.

I'll remember this the next time I attend a heterosexual pride parade.

You may not notice it, because you are heterosexual and don't pay attention to what's going on around you, but yes, most of the population DOES effectively run around basically saying "I'm straight and proud of it".

So heterosexual people don't pay attention to what is going on around them? And I really can't recall the last time anybody I knew or was even around said, "I'm straight and proud of it."

Seriously, ever see one of those "my face is up here" tee-shirts certain women wear? It plays off of heterosexual pop culture.

Are you suggesting that a lesbian or bisexual woman might not be checking out another woman's breasts? I'm not sure what makes that shirt some kind of heterosexual propaganda other than it most often applies to heterosexuals since they make up the vast majority of the population. The same can be said of your "mustache rides" example. Certainly homosexual men have used that term on occasion. I don't really see how it might not apply.

I don't really see a mainstream attempt at pursuing a so-called "heterosexual" pop culture. If heterosexuality in our culture takes center stage it is probably due to the fact that there are many more heterosexual people than homosexuals, and less due to some hidden agenda to keep homosexuals out of the culture. If anything, today homosexual culture is as much an accepted part of mainstream culture as anything else. If there is a perceived lapse of homosexual culture in science fiction perhaps it is due to fewer homosexuals writing or having interest in science fiction than other genres.

 helium42 wrote:
I'll remember this the next time I attend a heterosexual pride parade.

Happens all the time. They aren't CALLED straight pride parades, but they are that regardless.

And yes, the majority of heterosexuals do NOT understand how they're pushing their heterosexuality in everyone's faces. I say this without judgement of it, it's hardly their fault, considering that they're simply following cultural norms.

 Melissia wrote:
Another comparison would be a game like League of Legend or Awesomenauts, if I get the gist of your arguments-- games where each individual character has their own interesting background and history rather than simply being part of an army.

Ah, there we go, found it again.

For example, would you use this skin for your Taric?

I would. Hehehehe.

 Melissia wrote:
Better tell the Log Cabin Republicans that their conservative cards are revoked.

Heh, of course while homosexual conservatives don't see being gay as a political statement, "mainstream" (which is to say liberal) gay groups do. They seem quite... exercised about it (the election brought out some particularly delightful gems).

Which actually leads to the point that it's frequently forgotten that, while homosexual acts have been around as long as sexual acts have been, the idea of a "gay identity" is a fairly recent development. Several people in the thread have mentioned things like the homosexuality of ancient Spartans, Greeks and so on, but referring to such people as "gay" in the current context is anachronistic. Spartan men who... "initiated youths into manhood" would have had wives as well, and generally held to the ancient historical adage "a woman for children, a boy for pleasure."

Of course, ancient here is really just a reference to the West, where the practice has (mainly) been discarded. In places like Afghanistan, bacha bazi (boy play), involves those that "dress their wives in burqas while dressing young boys in women's clothing for a little dance and sex" (there is a saying that 'even birds fly over Kabul with one wing covering their rear end'). Now, to call such people homosexuals seems a rank slander on homosexuals, but therein lies the problem, for the behavior of Spartans was likely far closer in practice to the modern day Pashtu activities, with their marked differences in power between participants, then the consensual relationships modern people think of.

I don't care to know about the orientation of a character unless that the point of the story, and then I'm not apt to read it.
I think all of this focus on the subject is a load of crap.
Just imagine a world where sexual orientation wasn't an issue, and no one cared what you were.
Much better world.

 Melissia wrote:

 helium42 wrote:
I'll remember this the next time I attend a heterosexual pride parade.

Happens all the time. They aren't CALLED straight pride parades, but they are that regardless.

Do you care to offer an example of a straight-pride parade? Because the only sexuality-oriented parades I have ever heard of were gay pride parades.

 Dentry wrote:
What Fafnir said.

Why should sexual orientation matter? It's okay to read about and indugle in bloodthirsty sociopathic monsters, as long as they're not gay.

On the tabletop, it doesnt at all. Sex is not a factor in the game, nor should it be really. Fluff directly related to the game should leave it alone as well. Wargames are about exactly that, war. Who or what a character likes to get it on with bears no factor in fighting the enemy.

As far as in novels and other works...if it had a real and dramatic impact on the story or the characters life, motivations, etc...otherwise leave it out. Ive read a few scifi works that had sexual scenes in them, and really they felt added in, kinda like giving the basement dweller types something to spank to. The works would have lost nothing, possibly even gained, by leaving it out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 matphat wrote:
I don't care to know about the orientation of a character unless that the point of the story, and then I'm not apt to read it.
I think all of this focus on the subject is a load of crap.
Just imagine a world where sexual orientation wasn't an issue, and no one cared what you were.
Much better world.

Outside of persecution by religious types, women live in that world. Bi or gay women arent scorned nearly as bad bi/gay men are.

 Melissia wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Another comparison would be a game like League of Legend or Awesomenauts, if I get the gist of your arguments-- games where each individual character has their own interesting background and history rather than simply being part of an army.

Ah, there we go, found it again.

For example, would you use this skin for your Taric?

I would. Hehehehe.

Interesting. Would you similarly be accepting if someone used this for the skin of (insert LoL character here)?

 Manchu wrote:
Let's do an experiment.

Andrew Ryan was a multi-millionaire who became disillusioned with what he described as the "parasitic" economic and moral aspects of of modern society. He therefore put his considerable fortune to work building the city called Rapture beneath the waves of the North Atlantic. He envisioned a society in which artists, scientists, and business men could realize their genius unfettered by legal or moral constraints, answerable only to their own success or failure in the marketplace. Ryan preferred to have sex with women.

Andrew Ryan was a multi-millionaire who became disillusioned with what he described as the "parasitic" economic and moral aspects of of modern society. He therefore put his considerable fortune to work building the city called Rapture beneath the waves of the North Atlantic. He envisioned a society in which artists, scientists, and business men could realize their genius unfettered by legal or moral constraints, answerable only to their own success or failure in the marketplace. Ryan preferred to have sex with men.

Which character is more interesting?

Hehe, an excellent point.