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Hello Dakka, first time posting in the Tourney Forums, so here goes. Given the new FAQ on the Baleflamer for the Helldrake now being a torrent weapon with a 360 arc of LOS measured from the base and not the weapon, is the Helldrake now cheesy enough to be auto take in tourney lists wit hall 3 of the FA slots? I don't see any competition for it of the rest of the FA options imo as good as the Helldrake. 510 points for 3 flyers with a torrent 6S AP3 with Soulblaze with 360 LOS ignoring cover AND able to S7 vector strike like a FMC nowhere nears breakign the bank. Even 1000 point games have no problem throwing them in alongside cultists mobs and maybe some termies in MSU or some shooty marines in boxes escorting an assaulty unit with the dirge casters negating overwatch. Any thoughts? As a side note I should add, I have no Tournament experience outside of what I have read during the year or two lurking on the forums and listening to experiences of others via podcasts. I have yet to see anyone address this yet on any source as this is a potentially major change (a unique exception to the rules in how ANY flier or torrent weapon works via the Helldrake). I would love any thoughts on this from other players with experiences of competitive play against these new changes.

It's a great unit. It's expecially great at victimizing marines on foot, of which there are a lot more nowadays than they were in the days of 5th.

That being said, the Heldrake does have some reasonably-common bad matchups.

1. It's not really a good anti-flyer flyer. IG or Necron armies with multiple Vendettas or Night Scythes will tend to win the air war against it. As will Stormravens, particularly BA SRs.
2. It doesn't do much to terminators. Paladin-centered armies, Meganobs, and even just regular marine armies who are careful to position a character in terminator armor so he's nearest the drake can bounce a lot of baleflamer wounds.

it can easily be a decent anti flyer. Vector Striking D3+1 S7 hits is nothing to sneeze at, it potentially hits a flyer with the same firepower as a NS from the crons and THEN it gets to template a ground unit,almost if not completely wiping out a full non Termie unit, especially if its a MSU army, and they have marines and such in 5s. not hard to rape that imo. In purge the alien, thats 2 kill points from one model in one turn. Its literally a zooming Dreadknight thats has HtH and regens, trading the 3 extra S on the attacks for them auto hitting and random number of its. At almost half the points if you take a personal tele on the DK, which most do to abuse the first turn HI and make him a jump MC.


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oh, and the terminators it doesn't just instagib, it has soulblaze. Not terribly awesome, its its there and can possibly be just what it needs to force a morale check and break them. Sure they auto regroup if there loyalists from ATSKNF next turn but against an assaulty squad you just made them run 2d6, effectively canceling out any movement they gained from the last 1-2 turns depending on the roll of the fallback.

If an average 3 S7 hits is nothing to sneeze at, it's nothing to write home about either. There's also the fact that you have to pass completely over your target to get those hits, which isn't hard for an opponent to deny with their own movement (that is, when it's their Flyers you're trying to VS). Heldrake is so-so anti-air. It can help get a HP off in a pinch, but you'll need something more if you actually want to take enemy Flyers down.

It's also not going to be great against elite infantry. Nor is it going to mow down hordes by itself. Nothing wrong with that, just the small price to pay for being extremely good against MEQs. As far as specializations go, you could do a lot worse. Anyway, it still is a specialized unit (and fairly expensive), so I think in most cases taking 3 would be excessive. The armies Heldrakes excel against will still struggle having to face 2. To those same armies, sure, 3 would be even scarier, but the armies Heldrakes are mediocre against will be glad to see 510 points committed to them.

"not hard to rape that imo." Ugh.

Additionally, when you get those hits, they are always hitting on the side armour. On a Vendetta for example, you'll need 5s to glance and 6s to penetrate. So on average you'll cost the Vendetta a single hull point.

When the Vendetta fires at you. 2.25 hits, 1.125 penetrating hits and 0.375 glancing hits. On average it is 50% more effective at removing hull points and much more likely to get a penetrating hit with its AP2 weaponary.

so what, is it one of those "zomg its broken" on paper kinda things, but once the mathhammer hits, its a specialized good unit? My problem is, with the flamer ID everything but termies pretty much (every eldar but the avatar, IG blobs beware, and say goodbye GKs to that 300+ point unit of purifiers or purgation squad camping the cover, or henchamn for that matter other than the crusaders SS). I dont see how ID and no armor save to maybe what, more than 50% of every ground unit in the game is hardly "specialized". And on elite armies that spam Terminators like draigo wing and the like. A forgefiend with 3 Ecto cannons at S8 Ap2 makes termies cry more than plasma spam. granted there only BS3 and its what 225 points for that? It's still a regenerating deamon laughing off anything but multiple dedicated psycannon shots. Also, why compare it to a Vendetta with 3 TL LS at 130 points? It's widely acknowledged that is a dirt cheap for what you get flyer, especially against AA. Hence why IG is still a Majorly Top tier army and allyign them with ANYTHING elite assaulty like Gks is almost as rediculous as Flycrons to deal with.

As a side note, what options would be better for the FA option than the Helldrake? Raptors, maybe?

No, it's still an excellent unit. You just don't use it for taking out flyers and if you come up against a Terminator build it won't perform as well. Against anything in Power Armour it will tear straight through them unless your opponent has some defence against it such as Wolf Guard Terminators at the front of their squads.

I don't think that anyone claimed that the Heldrake is specialised, if not being able to deal with everything extremely well is specialised then the vast majority of units in the game are specialised.

When you say, ok, if I'm against Terminators I'll just use Forgefiends, that doesn't make the Heldrake autotake, and who takes Forgefiends anyway? I was at Throne of Skulls this weekend (albeit not the most competitive tournament in the world) and out of 117 people attending there were 2 Forgefiends, while you couldn't look down a row without seeing a dual Heldrake army.

I compared it to a Vendetta because that is what you're going to be seeing in the air. You're not going to be Vector striking Voidravens all do you know, Vendettas are one of the most common flyers in the game and that is what you're up against. Plus, if you're claiming that a Heldrake is autotake then you're implying that it's dirt cheap too, level playing field based on how you're describing the Heldrake.

Heldrakes are definately an excellent Fast Attack choice, Raptors don't even come close. The only ones that really compete are the Spawn and the possibly the Bikers, although they're used for different roles to the Heldrake so it's difficult to say that they're better.

It was the post above yours claiming it was expensive and a specialized unit, wasn't intending that comment to you rampage. Imo, its pretty cheap compared to a unit of bikers or anything else that fills the same role or the versatility of that role as the helldrake. If you had to pay for the baleflamer (like 20-25 maybe) then id say itd be a investment. But at 170 points stock, its essentially to ground units what the vendetta is to flyers. meaning if its going after a unit, wave goodbye to it or at least half of it. Using GKs as an example, a 10 man of purifiers is roughly 300 or so points with upgrades (full psycannons, halberds, the typical stuff) zooming a helldrake up and wiping 5-8 of them with ease just sits wrong with me in terms of balance. And there is nothing to to protect them from that, as templates ignore cover. So 170 points just omnomed on 200+? As a side question, are MEQs (T4 3+ tac marine type uits) in the Meta? And thus stunts the major effectiveness of the Helldrake which is obviously designed for?

And T6 bikers sounds nice, until you see the price tag...

I wish it had some transport capacity... then it would be really good. I think it is currently one of those overrated units.

overlordweasel wrote: I dont see how ID and no armor save to maybe what, more than 50% of every ground unit in the game is hardly "specialized".

Yes, the Heldrake is good against most ground units. That is its specialty. It won't do well against Terminators or many other 'elite' ground units. It won't put much of a dent in massed infantry. It's not going to do a whole lot to light vehicles, heavy vehicles, or other Flyers. It doesn't score, deliver troops, or have much functionality aside from murdering MSU infantry. The prevalence of MEQs in 40k makes that a very, very valuable quality, but it's just not well-rounded enough to warrant auto-taking 3.

overlordweasel wrote:
It was the post above yours claiming it was expensive and a specialized unit, wasn't intending that comment to you rampage. Imo, its pretty cheap compared to a unit of bikers or anything else that fills the same role or the versatility of that role as the helldrake. If you had to pay for the baleflamer (like 20-25 maybe) then id say itd be a investment. But at 170 points stock, its essentially to ground units what the vendetta is to flyers. meaning if its going after a unit, wave goodbye to it or at least half of it. Using GKs as an example, a 10 man of purifiers is roughly 300 or so points with upgrades (full psycannons, halberds, the typical stuff) zooming a helldrake up and wiping 5-8 of them with ease just sits wrong with me in terms of balance. And there is nothing to to protect them from that, as templates ignore cover. So 170 points just omnomed on 200+? As a side question, are MEQs (T4 3+ tac marine type uits) in the Meta? And thus stunts the major effectiveness of the Helldrake which is obviously designed for?

And T6 bikers sounds nice, until you see the price tag...

Ah ok. I missed that part of the above post. Fair enough.

I agree with you on everything else, but there are things that opponents can do to defend against Heldrakes. Just coming from my Space Wolf background.

I often get Forewarning from the Divination tree, so I can use that to give packs of Long Fangs a 4++ save if I know Heldrakes are coming. I can also put Wolf Guard Terminators at the front of squads to eat AP3 wounds. I can then also use bubblewrap, placing other units like Guardsmen up to prevent you from landing close enough to flame my Long Fangs, yes you can torrent but if you space out well enough remembering the size of your base it's not impossible.

It could also herald the return of the Rhino, I'm seriously considering putting some back into my list.

the problem i see with the helldrake is typical strategies against flyers dont work, gratz you put a wall in front of your units to block the 18 or inches of the template+ the torrent range. I can simply zoom over everything to your back, vector strike S7 Ap3 wounds into the long fangs, then drop the template behind the drake, as its now a turret weapon with 360 degrees LoS, it can even break the flyer limitation of the 45 degree arc downward, so the "stand directly under" doesnt work either. Going in a 90 degree circle and flaming in any direction, ignoring cover. Unmitigated by enemy flyers and this thing becomes a rape train that really doesnt have a threat outside psycannon pallies glancing it to death with rerolls thanks to PE: deamons. tho it still has a 5++ and can regenerate. Maybe you can tell me the math of 16 S7 Ap4 Rending Snap Shots against a helldrake. Statistically, that should at least cause 3 HP?

That's difficult when I've put my Long Fangs quite close to the board edge as I know that Baleflamers shoot like Turrets. They're leadership 9 and only 115pts per squad, I can afford to take the risk of them running off.

As for the maths there.

2.6 hits snap shotting against the Heldrake. 0.8 recurring hull points removed.

So 0.44 glancing hits and 0.44 penetrating hits.

After 5++ save you get 0.29 glancing hits and 0.29 penetrating hits.

So in total you remove 0.59 hull points and your odds of exploding it with 16 shots are 1/20.

The Heldrake is nice, but diminishing returns kicks in pretty quick - I can't ever see needing 3 of them in a standard-sized list. There just aren't that many good targets for a flamer template at a time, usually.

When I've played against them with Tyranids, they haven't been that significant; the Flamer can't hit enough of a spread-out horde to make a huge difference, and it takes a single Heldrake a minimum of 3 turns to run 2 Vector Strikes against a particular monstrous creature.

At the end of the day, it still can't contest objectives, and can only score in 1/6 of the standard missions. You won't win without boots on the ground.

1, certainly. 2, occasionally. But 3? I seriously doubt it.

Interestingly enough if you did take 3 Helldrakes with a comms relay, then starting on turn 2 you can reasonably expect to have all 3 vector strike a Tyranid MC per turn. That would be, on average, 9 str 7 ap 3 hits to an MC per turn. Then flame 3 times. I think you can expect to kill an MC on turn 2, 3, 4, 5 as the game goes on.

I could be wrong, but if that is a Flyrant we're talking about with Iron arm, you still wounding on 6+. So with those 9 hits a turn you're lucky to get 1 wound.

Even if you roll average with Iron arm you are still wounding on 5+.

This doesn't account for FnP either.

Lets say you don't get Iron arm (in the ideal scenario) you get Endurance instead. With those 9 hits, you wound 6. FnP negates 1~2, then you can regenerate one back!

I would actually encourage you to use those 3 Helldrakes to try to take 1 Flyrant out a turn. (not to mention placing units around him ever so nicely to prevent you to "End your turn 1" away from me.

Now you just committed what were they 170+ points a piece (so your 510+ points) to take out my 260 point model.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with most people here. They are great units, but to take 3 would be maybe committing too many points for a unit with (relatively) narrow window of effectiveness.

The heldrake is a good unit, that's for sure, but I would never take 3 in my tournament list. The most I would go is 2 and currently, I am ok with running just 1. Why? Because too many heldrakes actually unbalances your army. They are really good against MEQ armies, but against the Xenos races, they really aren't as effective. None of my Xenos armies - my tyranids, my chaos daemons, my nob-biker green tide orks, my wraithwing necrons, even my Nurgle CSM armies - really fear or even care about heldrakes. And my lists are the type of ones you will probably see at tournaments - in order words, balanced Take-All-Comers builds.

Now if you know that your meta is predominantly MEQ, then perhaps 3 heldrakes will be an auto-take. But I always look at it from the perspective of a true TAC build - take your army anywhere and against any type of army and it will still be able to compete. Triple-heldrakes will totally thrash certain lists, but against other lists, they won't really do much. That is a sign of an unbalanced army - rock, paper, scissors type of matchups is what you encounter when you run 3 heldrakes.

DarthDiggler wrote:
Interestingly enough if you did take 3 Helldrakes with a comms relay, then starting on turn 2 you can reasonably expect to have all 3 vector strike a Tyranid MC per turn. That would be, on average, 9 str 7 ap 3 hits to an MC per turn. Then flame 3 times. I think you can expect to kill an MC on turn 2, 3, 4, 5 as the game goes on.

Given the requirement to completely pass over the unit you're striking, and the inability for a Zooming flyer to turn, it's fairly easy for an MC to avoid a vector strike on the turn a Heldrake arrives from Reserves - don't move completely within 31" or so of your opponent's board edge, or if you do, make sure to fill the space behind you with gribblies to prevent the Heldrake from landing there.

Yes, Heldrakes are auto-take. They're game-breakingly powerful. 3 is overkill (they take up a lot of space and having a flex unit of Fast Attack like Spawn is a good idea), but 2 does all the work of brushing infantry off the board for a mere 340 points, leaving you plenty to build the rest of your army.

Bikes actually put up some very good competition in a competitive CSM list. I would take 1 or 2 Helldrakes because they are good at what they do and having some kind of Flyer distraction is almost a must at Tourneys now.

I think one is really all you need. I also think they are quite good versus light mech and MCs... the Heldrake is stripping off wounds with vector strikes helping your other units finish them all off. The vector strike is just brutal versus lightly armored vehicles such as rhinos and razorbacks... some decent dice and you can pop one in one go then bake whatever falls out. They are really bad news versus MSU.

 Rampage wrote:
That's difficult when I've put my Long Fangs quite close to the board edge as I know that Baleflamers shoot like Turrets. They're leadership 9 and only 115pts per squad, I can afford to take the risk of them running off.

As for the maths there.

2.6 hits snap shotting against the Heldrake. 0.8 recurring hull points removed.

So 0.44 glancing hits and 0.44 penetrating hits.

After 5++ save you get 0.29 glancing hits and 0.29 penetrating hits.

So in total you remove 0.59 hull points and your odds of exploding it with 16 shots are 1/20.

I know that Mathhammers is a religion, a bit like Scientology or something, and i don't want to talk bad about it, but to me a 0.29 hit, its still a 0...

Because there is no such thing in the rule book where you need a result of 0.29 on your dice...

Played 5 games with the Drake, there is only one game where it got destroyed at Turn 3, because i was facing a Tau/Eldar alliance, with lots, and lots of rerollable S10 AP1 weapons.

Its still a game of hazard , there is dices, and sooo many occasions to make Mathhammers results lies, now i know it helps see some kind of result( frankly, wich one i don't see...), but i never based wich unit i take on those mathhammers stuff.

Meh, its good. Its really good, if fct Im glad GW finally put out unit tht can wipe some marines off the table. But then again everyone bitched and moaned about the Executioners 5 plasma cannon shots back in 5th. So meh. I'll take my 2 dakka jets any day of the week. They wipe more marines off the field then anything, dice gods pending that is.

With the 360 degree bale flamer, I'd say that 2 are auto take in any competitive list. Their cost is negligible, their offensive capabilities are diverse and abusive, and their defensive qualities will require opponents to commit considerable resources to getting rid of them. Also, they can score occasionally…

I see the third FA being bikers or spawn (probably spawn for khorne/nurgle, bikers for slaanesh builds).

Helldrakes were worth taking before, now I think the have rocketed to auto-take land.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Rampage wrote:
That's difficult when I've put my Long Fangs quite close to the board edge as I know that Baleflamers shoot like Turrets. They're leadership 9 and only 115pts per squad, I can afford to take the risk of them running off.

As for the maths there.

2.6 hits snap shotting against the Heldrake. 0.8 recurring hull points removed.

So 0.44 glancing hits and 0.44 penetrating hits.

After 5++ save you get 0.29 glancing hits and 0.29 penetrating hits.

So in total you remove 0.59 hull points and your odds of exploding it with 16 shots are 1/20.

I know that Mathhammers is a religion, a bit like Scientology or something, and i don't want to talk bad about it, but to me a 0.29 hit, its still a 0...

Because there is no such thing in the rule book where you need a result of 0.29 on your dice...

Played 5 games with the Drake, there is only one game where it got destroyed at Turn 3, because i was facing a Tau/Eldar alliance, with lots, and lots of rerollable S10 AP1 weapons.

Its still a game of hazard , there is dices, and sooo many occasions to make Mathhammers results lies, now i know it helps see some kind of result( frankly, wich one i don't see...), but i never based wich unit i take on those mathhammers stuff.

A little bit contradictory there, you desribe 0.29 as 0 (as in you're not going to do any damage), yet also state that the mathammer doesn't always hold true. In a sense, you're right with both. Yes you're more likely not to do any damage than you're likely to do something, but as you say the averages don't always hold true, and the reason that the figure I showed isn't 0 is because there is a chance that you'll cause some damage.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

I know that Mathhammers is a religion, a bit like Scientology or something, and i don't want to talk bad about it, but to me a 0.29 hit, its still a 0...

Knowledge is power (hide it well). Like it or not this is a game of probabilities.

At least one Heldrake is an auto take. Two if it is an competitive environment. If you take three I would recommend you take two with the Baleflamer and one with the Hades Autocannon.

They have deamonforge (re roll to wound and penetrate once per game) a 5+ cover save 4+when moved flat out. And vector strike other flyers too dont forget. Still..... 3 is a bit much as previously mentioned there week against terminators thats why you take plenty of plasma in your other squads.(plague marines, bikers, obliterators standard). They are a must have. The same as the aegis defence line. Interceptor rule!!!!!! Wow! Twinlinked heavy4 s7 quad gun w2 t7. 4+ cover save
2+ once you go to ground! Amazing! I love my life.

math-hammer is not some rule to go by or what IS going to happen. It's to show, in number form, the basic percentage or chances an action is Expected to achieve. As an example, if you want to know the exact percentage chance of getting an explode! damage result from a Pen with a single shot from a Lasscannon (S9 AP2) against a Melta (S8 AP1). The melta has a better AP value for the damage roll, but the Lascannon has a better S to pop the armor all assuming max range without the meltas extra D6 at half range. Its mostly for those who are minmaxxing their armies potential for optimum performance in Tournament settings, as typically speaking for casual games you just dont care.


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where does the helldrake get a cover save from? evade takes its ability to use its baleflamer, so that's not exactly a good thing especially since its a deamon that comes with a 5++ anyways. It gets the Jink rule if it decides to hover, but it looses its HtH, and with its 360 arc of LOS, I dont see any reason ever to have to hover unless it will have to go off the board and its the last turn and you don't want it to count as destroyed in a kill point match or cant move the 18". A helldrake that stops zooming just became the #1 target for every heavy weapon in range and say goodbye to that helldrake.

Its mostly for those who are minmaxxing their armies potential for optimum performance in Tournament settings, as typically speaking for casual games you just dont care.

Yes and no. A casual gamer may not bother working out a calculation for it, but they're still using math when they conclude that a Lascannon is a better tool for killing most vehicles than a Missile Launcher. Everyone uses some math to figure out whether one option is better than another in certain situations.

I don't see how this new rule has all of a sudden made the Heldrake an autotake that you need to take in 3's and nothing less. I would take 2 of them if I played Chaos, but I feel the other Fast Attack slot should be filled with Bikers or maybe Spawn. Heldrakes are amazing now I agree, but taking 3 of them is a lot of points that I'd rather spend on other things.