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Do any of you tactical genius dakkanoughts out there have any thoughts on what would make a decent gunline CSM army?

Slaneesh Chaos Lord on steed with bikes.

Then take 10 man squads of Noise Marines with 2 blastmasters each.

Oblits, Forgefiends, and Havocs for heavies.

What in particular are you needing help with or what direction are you trying to go?

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Slaneesh Chaos Lord on steed with bikes.

Then take 10 man squads of Noise Marines with 2 blastmasters each.

Oblits, Forgefiends, and Havocs for heavies.

What in particular are you needing help with or what direction are you trying to go?

Just getting some ideas for now, so anything's helpful

Noise Marines are, as Savageconvoy said, probably your best bet to get real gunline stuff going.

The blastmasters are what will put you over the top, after taking shooty heavy support.

In HS, you have the mentioned Havocs, Oblits, and Forgefiends:

Havocs with autocannons (let's face it, that's what you're going to be taking with them) are cheap and have reasonable firepower against MCs, Heavy Infantry, and Light Vehicles. Basically use them as you would use a rifleman dreadnaught; you've got more shots, but it's the same gun. They're a bit fragile, so I'd actually recommend taking some extra bodies in the squad to absorb return fire. They're as cheap as normal marines, so it's not as bad as taking extra vanilla Devs, for instance. Mark of Nurgle is recommended if you're going to mark them at all, that extra 1T keeps random bolter shots from killing them easily, although it does nothing if your opponent fires lascannons or some such into them -- that's why extra bodies may be more economical instead. FW is selling autocannon sets, so you don't need to do long conversions if you don't want to.

Forgefiends. If you really want a long-range gunline, I think the Hades is better than the plasma -- although the plasma is S8, it's pretty short ranged, so you can't really do a stand-off shooting war with it. With 2 Hades, you're basically a GK psyfleman Dread with some different special rules. As with havocs, you've got double the shots of a Dread with 2 TL Autos, but forgefiends are only BS3. So you'll hit with the same number of shots on average, but the variance is much higher than for the dread. Forgefiends have an advantage over other shooty vehicles in that they're daemons, so you can park them out of cover and they'll still have an invuln save that will extend the life of your engine much longer than you think. They are still a big target and have only AV12 though.

Obliterators have been my go-to for HS. They're actually not the best in a shoot-off -- you pay too many points for that, when autocannon havocs would give more long-range firepower for cheaper. What you get with Oblits is the ability to do something other than a gunline. In my games with Oblits, I'm basically always moving them forwards; over the course of the game, they'll fire all their nasty weapons, and more than pay for themselves. Mark of Nurgle and Vets are basically mandatory on them. They're good deepstriking, they're not slouches in combat, they'll force your opponent to dedicate their best weapons to taking them down (MoN + TDA + 2W means bolters basically bounce right off) leaving any of your more vulnerable HS protected. Say you're bringing a vindicator; if they shoot the vindicator, the Oblits live till at least middle-game, where they really start to shine. If they shoot the oblits, then the vindicator wreaks havoc. Obliterators, at least for me, seem to get better as the game goes on.

Other HS choices are good too -- Predators and Vindicators are basically the same as in Loyalist armies, so if you want/have those, they'll function perfectly fine. On Vindicators, taking daemonic possession isn't a bad choice. It keeps your vehicles shooting longer, although it makes them less accurate.

So, after taking any variation of these options, to really get shooting superiority, you want noise marines. There's a noise marine thread a ways back where people go into some different builds with them. For a long-range stand-off gunline, blastmasters are the key. They can attack vehicles if they need to, but they're best at destroying marines in cover. You will win basically any shootout against shooty marine builds, unless they're going Deathwing and getting in-your face shooty. Then just shoot them with TL plasmaguns from your oblits.

HQ: Some form of Slaanesh Lord -- the biker lord is good, a cheap lord with the burning brand is fine too, in a squad that wants to move up the field.

You'll probably want the ADL with Quad-gun. Even if it's just more autocannons, you want to be able to at least contest the skies a bit, although taking heldrakes can refocus enemy fliers' attentions.

So yeah, take NM and lots of shooty HS, and you'll find that CSM can outshoot a lot of armies, especially loyalists with lots of power armored bodies. I'd actually like to see someone take a list like this up against different gunlines to see how it performs.

Gun line lists can only really work as long as you can maximize the force org chart full of shooting units. The more individual units you have to shoot the enemy the better.

Chaos has suffered long in that they could not fill up the force org chart with shooting units. The FA slots were bare compared to standard marines. Attack bikes and Speeders, cheap heavy weapon toting units, are missing from chaos.

The Heldrake gives chaos a chance to compete with shooting lists in the FA slot, but it is expensive. Helbrutes are cheap shooting units in the EL slot.

The key to remember for gun lines is to have more units capable of shooting rather than having more guns in total. What I mean is it is significantly better to have 6 lascannons that can shoot 6 different targets then having 9 lascannons that can only shoot 3 different targets.

 Thariinye wrote:
Obliterators have been my go-to for HS. They're actually not the best in a shoot-off -- you pay too many points for that, when autocannon havocs would give more long-range firepower for cheaper. What you get with Oblits is the ability to do something other than a gunline. In my games with Oblits, I'm basically always moving them forwards; over the course of the game, they'll fire all their nasty weapons, and more than pay for themselves. Mark of Nurgle and Vets are basically mandatory on them. They're good deepstriking, they're not slouches in combat, they'll force your opponent to dedicate their best weapons to taking them down (MoN + TDA + 2W means bolters basically bounce right off) leaving any of your more vulnerable HS protected. Say you're bringing a vindicator; if they shoot the vindicator, the Oblits live till at least middle-game, where they really start to shine. If they shoot the oblits, then the vindicator wreaks havoc. Obliterators, at least for me, seem to get better as the game goes on.

That is an excellent analysis of Oblits, and you covered their main advantage well -- they can move and shoot.

 Thariinye wrote:
Predators and Vindicators are basically the same as in Loyalist armies,

They might look so on the surface, but loyalist predators are different.

-An AC/HB predator costs C:SM 85 points, yet costs CSM 95.
- An AC/LC C:SM predator is 120, yet the CSM one is 115.
- The triple LC loyalist predator is 165, yet the CSM one is 140.

The CSM predators have cheaper las-cannons. The loyalist ones have cheaper heavy bolters.
The CSM predators have vastly better options for addons.

This is some brilliant advice, thank you all for your ideas, this is really helpful

I was thinking of doing a slannesh lord, a slannesh sorc, and 12/5 man units of noise maries with a blastmaster in a rhino as a base.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Thariinye wrote:
Predators and Vindicators are basically the same as in Loyalist armies,

They might look so on the surface, but loyalist predators are different.

-An AC/HB predator costs C:SM 85 points, yet costs CSM 95.
- An AC/LC C:SM predator is 120, yet the CSM one is 115.
- The triple LC loyalist predator is 165, yet the CSM one is 140.

The CSM predators have cheaper las-cannons. The loyalist ones have cheaper heavy bolters.
The CSM predators have vastly better options for addons.

Yeah, you're right about that. I was mostly speaking in that the functionality that they bring to a CSM army is similar to their functionality within a loyalist force, but points cost and the different styles of CSM and loyalists change up the equation a lot, especially when it comes to three lascannons for 140 as opposed to 165 points.

The CSM vehicle addons are generally quite good, although I've never managed to get those dirge casters to really work. Havoc launchers are great, although I wouldn't take them on a 3Las Pred -- it wants to be tank-hunting. Actually, thinking about it, daemonic possession wouldn't be bad on a predator either. Would you run them with daemonic Possession? How about the other upgrades?

I've been running 2 Preds with my "souped up Dakka Pred" config. These guys are stronger than they look.

Autocannon Turret
Heavy Bolter Sponsons
Havoc Launcher
Warpflame Gargoyles

It's all about throwing down tons of rounds and torrenting any type of infantry.

I like Preds and Vindi, with AV13 they are fairly durable.
I'd probably take some flak for this, but most gunline lists can benefit from some IG allies.

dont discount the 4 lascannon havoc squad. Very good for its points.

Autocannons are great, but you dont have to have autocannons.

 Exergy wrote:
dont discount the 4 lascannon havoc squad. Very good for its points.

Autocannons are great, but you dont have to have autocannons.

I second that, for their price they are solid.

Well, a CSM gunline should be a viable option. As said, a Slaanshi Lord on steed or bike leading a Biker unit or some Spawn could be used for counterstrike or harrassing. If you want a cool army, take NM with blastmasters as troops, fill all HS slots, and add one or two Helldrakes for targeting enemy units in the enemy's backfield. An ADL with a quad gun would be mandatory.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, a CSM gunline should be a viable option. As said, a Slaanshi Lord on steed or bike leading a Biker unit or some Spawn could be used for counterstrike or harrassing. If you want a cool army, take NM with blastmasters as troops, fill all HS slots, and add one or two Helldrakes for targeting enemy units in the enemy's backfield. An ADL with a quad gun would be mandatory.

I put that in verse for you.

HQ -
Chaos Lord - MoS, Burning Brand, Lightning Claw, Bike - 145

Troop -
Noise Marines x5 - Blast Master x1 - 125
Noise Marines x5 - Blast Master x1 - 125
Noise Marines x5 - Blast Master x1 - 125
Noise Marines x5 - Blast Master x1 - 125

Fast -
Helldrake - Baleflamer - 170
Helldrake - Baleflamer - 170
Bike x5 - MG x2, Lightning Claw, Melta Bomb, MoS, Icon of Excess - 195

Heavy -
Havok x5 - LC x4, MoN - 170
Havok x5 - LC x4, MoN - 170
Havok x5 - AC x4, MoN - 130

ADL - Quad gun - 100

1750

 Jackster wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, a CSM gunline should be a viable option. As said, a Slaanshi Lord on steed or bike leading a Biker unit or some Spawn could be used for counterstrike or harrassing. If you want a cool army, take NM with blastmasters as troops, fill all HS slots, and add one or two Helldrakes for targeting enemy units in the enemy's backfield. An ADL with a quad gun would be mandatory.

I put that in verse for you.

HQ -
Chaos Lord - MoS, Burning Brand, Lightning Claw, Bike - 145

Troop -
Noise Marines x5 - Blast Master x1 - 125
Noise Marines x5 - Blast Master x1 - 125
Noise Marines x5 - Blast Master x1 - 125
Noise Marines x5 - Blast Master x1 - 125

Fast -
Helldrake - Baleflamer - 170
Helldrake - Baleflamer - 170
Bike x5 - MG x2, Lightning Claw, Melta Bomb, MoS, Icon of Excess - 195

Heavy -
Havok x5 - LC x4, MoN - 170
Havok x5 - LC x4, MoN - 170
Havok x5 - AC x4, MoN - 130

ADL - Quad gun - 100

1750

Well, looks really good. But I'm not sure if 20 Noise Marines will suffice. I'd include another one and take Havocs with autocannons without any mark.

I think CSM should be played shooty since the transport options are not the best (old LR pattern tank, no Drop Pods).

 Thariinye wrote:
Yeah, you're right about that. I was mostly speaking in that the functionality that they bring to a CSM army is similar to their functionality within a loyalist force, but points cost and the different styles of CSM and loyalists change up the equation a lot, especially when it comes to three lascannons for 140 as opposed to 165 points.

I've actually been considering the TL-LC upgrade for 25 points. It really helps the predator against the targets its designed for.

Not just tanks, but other targets are extremely vulnerable to lascannons. To determine the effectiveness of weapons, you can utilize a formula I call RPP to determine its effect on killing models. Paladins, for example, have a RPP value of 77.1336 to bolters (GH are 59.9976), where the same paladin has a RPP value of 7.714286 to lascannons. (GH are 11.99988). In other words, Paladins are awesome until their shot by lascannons -- at which point they become extremely expensive point sinks.

The other thing to note is that the LC on the predator is twin-linked. This increases your chance of hitting from 2/3 to 8/9, or nearly netting you an extra 1/3 of a LC. If a LC upgrade is 20 points, five points for the TL is very reasonable.

 Thariinye wrote:
The CSM vehicle addons are generally quite good, although I've never managed to get those dirge casters to really work.

I've gotten excellent use out of them. The ideal platform for them are rhinos for a shooting based army. In my cases I was playing a Plague Marine army. The PMs are durable enough to drop off at a point and let them stay out of the rhino. I keep it nearby in case I need to redeploy. Since the rhino has an 18" effective movement per turn a single rhino has a 24" dirge area of effect (barring getting stuck on terrain).
There are many targets I want to assault. Sternguard, daemon flamers, etc...

 Thariinye wrote:
Havoc launchers are great, although I wouldn't take them on a 3Las Pred -- it wants to be tank-hunting. Actually, thinking about it, daemonic possession wouldn't be bad on a predator either. Would you run them with daemonic Possession? How about the other upgrades?

I agree with the havoc comment.

Does daemonic possession lower the BS by 1?

DarthDiggler wrote:
Gun line lists can only really work as long as you can maximize the force org chart full of shooting units. The more individual units you have to shoot the enemy the better.

Chaos has suffered long in that they could not fill up the force org chart with shooting units. The FA slots were bare compared to standard marines. Attack bikes and Speeders, cheap heavy weapon toting units, are missing from chaos.

The Heldrake gives chaos a chance to compete with shooting lists in the FA slot, but it is expensive. Helbrutes are cheap shooting units in the EL slot.

The key to remember for gun lines is to have more units capable of shooting rather than having more guns in total. What I mean is it is significantly better to have 6 lascannons that can shoot 6 different targets then having 9 lascannons that can only shoot 3 different targets.

DarthDiggler brings up an important thing about gunlines. I think a big strategy about chaos gunlines is that chaos isn't as one sided as other shooting units. They can still put up a fight, and they shouldn't shy away from it. Chaos should try to own the mid-field, putting every last bolter to bear. Chose units that succeed in the midfield but are capable of fighting in a pinch.

I run a pretty successful PM army and it owns the mid-field. Terminators, dreads, oblits, PMs. The entire army is capable of shooting at some distance, but also at hurting in close. Move everything together like a single giant blob. Some armies will always out shoot you, which is ok because you can punch them to death. Don't be afraid to bash somebody's face in with a bolter.

For a good mid-field army look for anything that can move and shoot. Especially heavies. They aren't as vulnerable to back field strikes if you can get them forward and keep them near support.

At far range I think chaos will get out shot by some as they waste their other talents. Sometimes you just can't out shoot them.

With these ideas in mind, I'm thinking of sitting back with some havocs to take out hard targets, whilst advancing with some CSM's (not decided what kinds yet), and using some bikers with meltas to quickly melt down any vehicles that prove to be a problem.
Good advice, thanks

 labmouse42 wrote:


Does daemonic possession lower the BS by 1?

Yeah, they become BS3, which is still fine for the TL-LC but becomes a bit problematic for any sponson LC. I guess that's why people like it on Vindicators more, as then it's just one more inch of scatter.

ID'ing Paladins is usually the way to go, then they're just more expensive shooty terminators.

With these ideas in mind, I'm thinking of sitting back with some havocs to take out hard targets, whilst advancing with some CSM's (not decided what kinds yet), and using some bikers with meltas to quickly melt down any vehicles that prove to be a problem.

Sounds fine to me. If you're going midfield with troops, I'd recommend either NM or Plague Marines. Neither are slouches in close-range combat. Plague marines get multiple specials at small unit sizes, can shrug off most bolter fire, have defensive grenades, and get a reasonable number of (often) wound-rerolling attacks in CC. Give your champ a PF, get some meltas or plasmas, a rhino, and you're good to go. Noise Marines get sonic blasters for close range dakka, doom sirens to completely troll other marines, and the ability to strike first against most squads. If you give the champ a Lightning Claw, he'll generally win challenges against marine sergeants, and get those nice Boon Table rolls.

I have played roughly 12 games so far since the new codex has come out, and I have yet to see my Nurgle Lord + Bike + Black Mace + Burning Brand + Key, actually fail me...

In the 12 times I have played, I have only lost 3 games because of my opponent doing the smart move of killing said lord off his first turn, and disallowing me my free-placed reserves due to the key.

HS options to me are simply things that can preform multiple rolls and succeed in each. Mauler Fiends for instance.. Mecha Tendrils completely dominate light inf. / Heavy inf. and do surprisingly well against vehicles as well!

Havocs I will only ever take las cannons on simply because I always have my champion manning a Quadgun (Who needs autocannons when you can have las-cheeze + and 4 barreled Skyfire + Interceptor cannon <3)




Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note, I you are playing a game of 4-5k I would suggest bringing 2 Defilers 2 Squads of Lascannon Havocs 2 Maulerfiends

Then fill the rest out as you'd like.

My simple reasoning behind this is that no matter what your opponent decides is more threatening, he's simply going to get unpleasantly touched (in a civil court kind of way) by anything he managed to leave alone during his last turn. IE he kills a defiler, or kills one squads of havocs, Ok, Good on him! But that still leaves everything else =/

It's especially effective if you manage to get first turn, which we don't need to get into. I'm sure you can guess how hilarious that is

The best thing you can do is offer up distractions from your troops choices.. Noise Marines are so bloody effective with 2 Blast-Masters and salvo shots up the ying, it's almost discouraging playing against CSM... Offering up 9 zerkers in a rhino accompanied by Kharn is a great way to provide your Noise Marines cover from the Rhino + D-Line you should have them hiding behind Along with allowing your opponent the ideal situation of "Hmmm if I dont kill that rhino he's going to march right on in here with that big red monstrosity, and them I'm a cow patty..."

 wuestenfux wrote:

Well, looks really good. But I'm not sure if 20 Noise Marines will suffice. I'd include another one and take Havocs with autocannons without any mark.

I think CSM should be played shooty since the transport options are not the best (old LR pattern tank, no Drop Pods).

yea, I did that one in haste, but I think atleast a group of LC is needed for AV13-14 killing.

I find the biggest problem with a Chaos gunline is range. A couple LRBTs can put a hurting on you fast.

My current idea is to use Huron to infiltrate hopefully 2 units of Havocs or maybe even a Vindicator or predator into range and get a nice alpha strike to even the odds. Then you can also deepstrike in a unit or two of Oblits. But I only play at about 1250 right now and it's hard to fill out your troops choice and get a Helldrake in as well. Trying to match IG or Tau in range eats up points fast with a Defiler's battle cannon.

I use two shooty Helbrutes if I play mechanized Chaos. I usually run missile launcher/ reaper and, well, shoot stuff. Most people ignore them... At their peril.
Compliment well with vindi/pred/pred that ive run.

 Wingeds wrote:
My current idea is to use Huron to infiltrate hopefully 2 units of Havocs or maybe even a Vindicator or predator into range and get a nice alpha strike to even the odds. Then you can also deepstrike in a unit or two of Oblits. But I only play at about 1250 right now and it's hard to fill out your troops choice and get a Helldrake in as well. Trying to match IG or Tau in range eats up points fast with a Defiler's battle cannon.

Master of Deception only works on infantry... it seems like you are intending to use it on the vehicles, but you cannot. Still awesome, but with limitations.

I like Huron with a 10 man squad of havoc's toting plasma guns. I usually just build up from that after taking the obligatory Helldrake, Obliterators, and x2 CSM squads in rhino's.

 guinness707 wrote:
I like Huron with a 10 man squad of havoc's toting plasma guns. I usually just build up from that after taking the obligatory Helldrake, Obliterators, and x2 CSM squads in rhino's.

for 5 more points Chosen dont take a heavy slot, can have 5 plasma guns and have +2 attack per model.

If they are gonna be up close you might want to consider it. Havocs have 1 attack, Chosen have 3. big difference.

Ah, you're right Gangrel. Was hoping to outflank a heldrake or two saturday lol. I like the plasma gun idea and the chosen idea. Guess it would depend who you're playing against. Snapfiring the lascannons or autocannons seems like a waste now that I've thought about it more.

See you want a chaos gunline... i think thats were you went wrong lol BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!! CHARGEEE!

hey mate i played with one the other day. it was

HQ slaneesh lord on bike black mace etc etc

Elites

1xhellbrute with ML, TL LC
1x hellbrute with ML , PC

FA

6 bikers with 2x melta guns
1x helldrake with BF

troops

2 squads of 10 Noise marines with 7 sonics and 2x BM
1 squad of 5 with 4 sonics and a BM

Heavies

5 havoks with AC
1 Forgefiend with 2x hades 1x eco
1 pred with AC, and LC sponsons and havok launcher etc

and a ADL with quad gun.

worked ok... just enough armor to keep the opponents switching targets....
Noise marines were amazing......