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Until viewing this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505300.page#5249845 I thought that the SoD only effected boltguns/TL boltguns and hurricane bolters but in thread the following point was made.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 kronk wrote:
As Krellnus says, I think AtoMaki is confused.

Bolt Pistols, Boltguns, stormbolters, hurricane bolters, and heavy bolters are all "Bolt Weapons". That does not make them all boltguns, however. Don't confuse fluff with in game rules.

As an aside, post like this reaffirm my observations that 75% of "facts" that follow someone saying "Fun Fact:" are wrong.

Dummm... here it is, right from the core rulebook (nice and big, so everyone can see it):

See any reference to "bolt weapons"? No? Thats fine because there isn't any. Now, do you see any reference to "boltguns"?

The BRB classifies Bolt pistols, Boltguns, Heavy Bolters, Storm Bolters and Avenger Mega Bolters as "Boltguns" and Codex: DA does nothing to overrule this, does this in fact mean that the SoD works on those weapons?

The Standard of Devastation says that all boltguns within 6" will be salvo 2/4.

Under the header "BOLTGUNS" in the BGB (p.56), all bolter weapons are included, including storm bolters and heavy bolters.

So either they meant boltguns as:

1) All weapons under the BOLTGUNS header of the BGB.

2) "Lowercase" boltguns, hurricane bolters, and combi-weapons

To me it seems like the RAW could be either 1 or 2.

The RAI is probably 2 though.

well it seems RAW defines boltguns as any listed in the entry and SoD says boltguns become salvo 2/4

so if SoD then

boltgun = salvo

is stormbolter boltgun? brb says yes so goto above.

I dont figure it would be that bad to do so, It would at least give them some firepower they generally lack, meaning tactical termies would start seeing field time instead of all TH/SS cyclone squads.

I agree that RAI is #2 but, I wouldn't be surprised if GW in its customary fickleness decided, that "why not go #1 for t3h lulz guys?"

I wouldn't be suprised if it was #1. Stormbolter termies are not as survivable as their assault bretheren, and are generally unpopular because 20 bolter shots from a termie squad isnt all that hot when they die to massive firepower or fail their 5++ after some good plasma attacks. eitherway they cost the same as TH/SS cyclone termies so I think using the SoD isnt too much of an OP tradeoff.

sacrifice a lot of survivability for double the firepower seems to be a good trade, though you are paying more for the SoD...

Imagine that deepstriking though, since terminators are relentless they always fire the four shots and they are twin-linked to boot.

so is a hurricane bolter a boltgun now or it it something else? I'm so confused

It's even more confusing with GK psybolts cause apparently assault cannons shoot bolts too. SOOOOOO lost hahahahhaa.

A hurricane bolter is literally 3 tl bolters fired as one weapon, so yes they are affected

How about the preceedant set by sternguard special ammo, which is only for boltguns, not pistols storm bolters etc?

Either could be the case.

All I know is that even if it strictly means 'boltguns' to be only the single shot weapon at 24" and rapid fire at 12" vanilla Space Marine gun of choice we all know and love, a Hurricane Bolter is 3 twin-linked 'boltguns' and will be subject to the rule regardless. Whereas a Stormbolter or a Heavy Bolter are a different weapon that fires the same shells, the Hurricane Bolter is just 6 'bolters' strapped together.

Throw a banner of devastation in or around a Land Raider Crusader and enjoy your 24 shots. Line 3 of them up, stick the banner in the middle one, and advance your AV14 wall of pain towards the enemy, firing 72 shots per turn. And better yet, throw in one of those ridiculous force field generators to give it all a 4++. Ahhh, the Gorgonzola is strong with this one...

Enceladus wrote:
Ahhh, the Gorgonzola is strong with this one...

I seriously laughed out loud. Thanks for making my morning!

 Krellnus wrote:
Until viewing this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505300.page#5249845 I thought that the SoD only effected boltguns/TL boltguns and hurricane bolters but in thread the following point was made.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 kronk wrote:
As Krellnus says, I think AtoMaki is confused.

Bolt Pistols, Boltguns, stormbolters, hurricane bolters, and heavy bolters are all "Bolt Weapons". That does not make them all boltguns, however. Don't confuse fluff with in game rules.

As an aside, post like this reaffirm my observations that 75% of "facts" that follow someone saying "Fun Fact:" are wrong.

Dummm... here it is, right from the core rulebook (nice and big, so everyone can see it):

See any reference to "bolt weapons"? No? Thats fine because there isn't any. Now, do you see any reference to "boltguns"?

The BRB classifies Bolt pistols, Boltguns, Heavy Bolters, Storm Bolters and Avenger Mega Bolters as "Boltguns" and Codex: DA does nothing to overrule this, does this in fact mean that the SoD works on those weapons?

Check in the dark angel codex in the weapons section there is a specific entry for boltguns it is the bolter we all know and love. Because even though i would love my bolt pistols being 4 shot weapons that is simply ridiculous

I doubt it was the intended situation that bolt pistols should be shooting 4 shots.

Boltgun is specifically mentioned as a type of bolt weapon. As there is a more specific instance of a name i strongly believe it should be #2. Anyone arguing #1 seems to be arguing more on a desire than a belief that a Vulcan mega-bolter should be salvo 2/4 along with a bolt pistol. Neither makes one bit of sense, however applying it to the Boltgun subtype does make sense as it is essentially improving rapid fire to double its effectiveness.

 zephoid wrote:
I doubt it was the intended situation that bolt pistols should be shooting 4 shots.

Boltgun is specifically mentioned as a type of bolt weapon. As there is a more specific instance of a name i strongly believe it should be #2. Anyone arguing #1 seems to be arguing more on a desire than a belief that a Vulcan mega-bolter should be salvo 2/4 along with a bolt pistol. Neither makes one bit of sense, however applying it to the Boltgun subtype does make sense as it is essentially improving rapid fire to double its effectiveness.

Exactly my point botlgun is defined in the codex and codex trumps rulebook ergo SoD only effects bolters and hurricane bolters

 captain collius wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
I doubt it was the intended situation that bolt pistols should be shooting 4 shots.

Boltgun is specifically mentioned as a type of bolt weapon. As there is a more specific instance of a name i strongly believe it should be #2. Anyone arguing #1 seems to be arguing more on a desire than a belief that a Vulcan mega-bolter should be salvo 2/4 along with a bolt pistol. Neither makes one bit of sense, however applying it to the Boltgun subtype does make sense as it is essentially improving rapid fire to double its effectiveness.

Exactly my point botlgun is defined in the codex and codex trumps rulebook ergo SoD only effects bolters and hurricane bolters

Except boltgun is NOT defined in the codex.

The Codex tells you to look at the BRB for rules for the Boltgun, so not sure what Codex you are looking at.

Edit: FYI - I do not beleive that option # 1 is what they meant when creating the Banner SoD.

 captain collius wrote:

Check in the dark angel codex in the weapons section there is a specific entry for boltguns it is the bolter we all know and love. Because even though i would love my bolt pistols being 4 shot weapons that is simply ridiculous

There is no specific entry for boltguns. Just a "look at the BRB pal" entry, what lists the boltgun (and the bolt pistol, storm bolter and heavy bolter) too. And we all know what says the BRB...

 AtoMaki wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

Check in the dark angel codex in the weapons section there is a specific entry for boltguns it is the bolter we all know and love. Because even though i would love my bolt pistols being 4 shot weapons that is simply ridiculous

There is no specific entry for boltguns. Just a "look at the BRB pal" entry, what lists the boltgun (and the bolt pistol, storm bolter and heavy bolter) too. And we all know what says the BRB...

^This

Combine the Standard of Dev with the DWA rule on a SB termie squad of 10 men. Not half bad!

Well the entry on boltguns say bolt pistols, storm bolters, etc are variations of boltguns, not boltguns specifically. (Like saying a honda civic and dodge charger are both cars, but only ones fitting a hemi engine in it) so it can be argued both ways.

as for worrying about it deepstriking into my face, I play orks, it just makes the walk shorter so It hasn't ever bothered me...

Paitryn wrote:
Well the entry on boltguns say bolt pistols, storm bolters, etc are variations of boltguns, not boltguns specifically. (Like saying a honda civic and dodge charger are both cars, but only ones fitting a hemi engine in it) so it can be argued both ways.

as for worrying about it deepstriking into my face, I play orks, it just makes the walk shorter so It hasn't ever bothered me...

Not quite an accurate analogy.

Both are cars, true but one is not a variation of the other.

More accurately would be a comparison to say, the GMC Sierra 1500 , 2500 and 3500. All are Sierras but quite different variations from each other.

If boltgun is a generic term for all bolt weapons then I guess I can model all my marines with heavy bolters instead of the boltguns they come with as standard wargear.

Of course that is absurd, but if people are going to try and say a heavy bolter benefits from a rule meant only for bolters, then it's only fair right?

 AtoMaki wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

Check in the dark angel codex in the weapons section there is a specific entry for boltguns it is the bolter we all know and love. Because even though i would love my bolt pistols being 4 shot weapons that is simply ridiculous

There is no specific entry for boltguns. Just a "look at the BRB pal" entry, what lists the boltgun (and the bolt pistol, storm bolter and heavy bolter) too. And we all know what says the BRB...

Yeah second entry down Boltgun. In the DA tactical, veteran, and devastator squads listing Boltgun. Hurricane bolter is three twin-linked boltguns. Ravenwing attack squadron twin-linked boltgun. This is really quite simple don't try to confuse it with a meaningless reference from the BRB.

Dem troll be out troll'n tonight...

 captain collius wrote:

Yeah second entry down Boltgun. In the DA tactical, veteran, and devastator squads listing Boltgun. Hurricane bolter is three twin-linked boltguns. Ravenwing attack squadron twin-linked boltgun. This is really quite simple don't try to confuse it with a meaningless reference from the BRB.

Thank you Captain Obvious, you've found the piece of wargear called boltgun. Problem is, that the rules of the Standard of Devastation don't refer to the wargear (or at least there are no indication that they do), so some people could get the idea that it refers to the category 'boltguns' introcuded by the BRB (replacing the old category "bolt weapons").

This is a prime example how GW can f*ck up even such a simple thing.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

Yeah second entry down Boltgun. In the DA tactical, veteran, and devastator squads listing Boltgun. Hurricane bolter is three twin-linked boltguns. Ravenwing attack squadron twin-linked boltgun. This is really quite simple don't try to confuse it with a meaningless reference from the BRB.

Thank you Captain Obvious, you've found the piece of wargear called boltgun. Problem is, that the rules of the Standard of Devastation don't refer to the wargear (or at least there are no indication that they do), so some people could get the idea that it refers to the category 'boltguns' introcuded by the BRB (replacing the old category "bolt weapons").

This is a prime example how GW can f*ck up even such a simple thing.

Wrong A prime example of looking for greater meaning in a simple thing.

 AtoMaki wrote:


This is a prime example how GW can f*ck up even such a simple thing.

How is it GW's fault people are greedy or bad at reading?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:


This is a prime example how GW can f*ck up even such a simple thing.

How is it GW's fault people are greedy or bad at reading?

Feeding them with stupid/defective wording? We wouldn't have this rather 'bleh'-ish discussion if GW wouldn't screw up the naming of bolt weapons (or at least it could clarify the boltgun as the actual wargear in the description of the SoD). Yes, the intent is clear - they meant the weapon, and not the weapon category - but it helps little when you face some random WAAC DA player in a tournament (or anywhere else, but at least in a casual game, you have the option to ragequit).

Let's be honest, when you have a weapon and a weapon category (what also includes the weapon itself) with the same name, then a piece of wargear that includes only the name, then it just asks for some rulebending.

And I don't even start with the Drop Pod what can fire a Quad Gun .

 captain collius wrote:

Wrong A prime example of looking for greater meaning in a simple thing.

Which is what RAI is vs RAW. The argument is strict RAW on this one.

If boltgun is a generic term for all bolt weapons then I guess I can model all my marines with heavy bolters instead of the boltguns they come with as standard wargear.

Of course that is absurd, but if people are going to try and say a heavy bolter benefits from a rule meant only for bolters, then it's only fair right?

Of course thats absurd, You need to equip them with the Vulcan Mega Bolter for the 15 shots a piece!

you have to admit it was pretty stupid of them to call a boltgun both a piece of wargear AND a generic term for all weapons that fire bolt ammunition. be like calling anything that fires a bullet an M16. now standard US army soldiers are being equipped with gatling guns from aircraft. Not realistic, but the game would allow for it if the rules do (since no one has a carry limit per se.)

so the Rulebook FAQ needs to replace "Boltguns" title with "Bolt Weapons"

We could say that yeah GW really fethed up when making this entry, but until SoD came up everyone seemed to miss this entry as well. So if Millions missed it, you can't expect a small staff of editors (or probably just one) to catch everything.

Or we use the example that the IG codex set with orders... in which case it only applies to the standard boltgun, and not any other version of it.

From Errata:

“If the order is successfully
issued, the ordered unit immediately shoots at any visible
target. All models firing a lasgun gain an additional shot for
the duration of the Shooting phase.”

From FAQ:

Q. Are hotshot lasguns considered lasguns for ‘First Rank Fire, Second
Rank Fire’? (p36)
A. No.

Paitryn wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

Wrong A prime example of looking for greater meaning in a simple thing.

Which is what RAI is vs RAW. The argument is strict RAW on this one.

If boltgun is a generic term for all bolt weapons then I guess I can model all my marines with heavy bolters instead of the boltguns they come with as standard wargear.

Of course that is absurd, but if people are going to try and say a heavy bolter benefits from a rule meant only for bolters, then it's only fair right?

Of course thats absurd, You need to equip them with the Vulcan Mega Bolter for the 15 shots a piece!

you have to admit it was pretty stupid of them to call a boltgun both a piece of wargear AND a generic term for all weapons that fire bolt ammunition. be like calling anything that fires a bullet an M16. now standard US army soldiers are being equipped with gatling guns from aircraft. Not realistic, but the game would allow for it if the rules do (since no one has a carry limit per se.)

so the Rulebook FAQ needs to replace "Boltguns" title with "Bolt Weapons"

We could say that yeah GW really fethed up when making this entry, but until SoD came up everyone seemed to miss this entry as well. So if Millions missed it, you can't expect a small staff of editors (or probably just one) to catch everything.

I would disgree with you you are saying that it is RAW that the heading boltguns makes all of them a boltgun in addition to its other name as say a heavy bolter. I am saying that is a meaningless header to make information in the book more reader friendly and the fact that Boltgun has an entry listed in that list means that that is in fact the only entry for boltgun because by your interpretation i can claim hurricane bolters (which in the DA book are 3 twin-linked bolters) use the Vulcan Mega-bolter statline.

Now also let me say my example is silly in the extreme. But just an extension of your logic.