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I would agree that the heading does not make it so, but the further definition does cause a moment for pause as it says they are all boltguns, just variations of the original.

RAI, im not really saying it works, but I dont try to RAI anymore these days GW seems to prove what we think works one way doesnt always mean the case in their logic either (Seeker missiles vs flyers?) They could very well see it being fair and balanced since a vulcan mega bolter would go from 15 shots to 4 for all I know. I simply agree with what my opponent wants if its not too outlandish. (I hate spending all my game time dealing with odd rules, I have orks to move)

The thing is, people are referencing what essentially equates to a fluff piece to support option #1, and only a portion of it at that. "Boltguns" is the heading, but if you continue reading, it states stormbolters, bolt pistols, etc are considered VARIATIONS of Boltguns. Key word is "variations", meaning, not the same but similar.

Furthermore, if you look in the weapon list in the BRB, there is only one entry entitled "Boltgun", and that is all that the banner effects, if it doesn't use that statline, its not a Boltgun per the rules.

Since the Banner of Devastation does not say "Boltguns and their variations", then RAW, it only impacts Boltguns, not the various subtypes.

I agree it does not affect all the other types of boltgun, however saying that Boltgun and boltgun are not the same thing is a terribly weak argument when considering how many stupid errors are in the da dex

I'm sticking to just boltguns like the ones used by so many tac marines. It's so simple it's dumb. Common sense tells you what it iS and any other deviation from that is just plain silly.

Question you should ask yourself is this. Are there any other salvo weapons in the game? If so what are they? Noise marines come to mind. It's not a pistol, a hurricane bolter, nor a storm bolter.

Boltguns, hurricane bolters and combi-weapons are all I will have affected.

Lungpickle wrote:
I'm sticking to just boltguns like the ones used by so many tac marines. It's so simple it's dumb. Common sense tells you what it iS and any other deviation from that is just plain silly.

Question you should ask yourself is this. Are there any other salvo weapons in the game? If so what are they? Noise marines come to mind. It's not a pistol, a hurricane bolter, nor a storm bolter.

All the contrary arguments so far are arguments from RAI, not RAW, or raw emotion arguments/ appeal to common sense. Since we're talking about the rules of a game here, common sense does not apply, unless you are appending a house rule. A literal reading of the rules is open to both 1. All Boltguns and 2. Bolter only interpretations.

Until an FAQ comes out we have no legitimate recourse except for prior agreement between players.

That said, Salvo 2/4 storm bolters go a long way towards making DW and terminators more competitive.

Someone more in the know could probably point out specifics that I can't remember, but in the past, there's been precedent pointed out where GW uses a capitalized word to indicate a category and the lower case to indicate the individual item.

With that in mind, the codex's lower case use of the word 'boltgun' would indicate exactly that...the actual, specific boltgun (S4/AP5, rapid fire) weapon. This would cover TL boltguns (like hurricane bolters) and combi-bolters.

Anything else is, IMHO, someone simply looking for an exploit and too far into the simplistic use of the word. If it covered all of those weapons, it'd cost a lot more than it does.

As pointed out in so many YMDC threads before, no one really intends to use this RAW interpretation, YMDC is about what RAW means specifically. The rules for the forum state that RAI is thrown out and we deal with strict RAW.

for my orks, killing 8 ork boyz vs 3 (utilizing cover) means practically nothing so I would let them have the rule. they're going to get eaten in assault anyways. I also agree that it makes tactical termies better, though i doubt it makes them that much more competitive than standard assault DW. you still have to be near the banner to work if i recall correctly.

@kwcm: you may be right, except the BRB refers to the generic term of boltgun in lowercase and the specific boltgun is capitalized, so that puts us back to square one. Now if the DA codex (dont have one in front of me) references all boltguns as "Boltguns" then we have an instance where all standard boltguns are specifically capitalized and lowercase represents the general term.

Paitryn wrote:
@kwcm: you may be right, except the BRB refers to the generic term of boltgun in lowercase and the specific boltgun is capitalized, so that puts us back to square one. Now if the DA codex (dont have one in front of me) references all boltguns as "Boltguns" then we have an instance where all standard boltguns are specifically capitalized and lowercase represents the general term.

Unfortunately, the only time "boltgun" is capitalised is when it is part of a list. If, "boltgun" refers to the list, then since DA SM bikes come with a twin-linked boltgun, I can model them as Vulcan mega-bolters, right?

Put it another way, try pulling the boltpistol is a Salvo 2/4 weapon at any tournament. Does anyone seriously reckon it'll be ruled as to effect anything other than the standard bolter.

All 'boltguns', look in wargear summary of the codex, one entry for boltgun. Codex trumps BRB. Problem solved.

Yes GW could tighten up their wording sometimes, but some people are just looking to capitalise on semantics.

It is however, slightly more debatable, as to the hurricane bolter. But I'm not getting into that one.

I think you will find most tournaments will give you their interpretation if asked before you play.
To me I think it clearly means your standard bolter and its variants ie combi, twin linked and hence hurricane bolter which clearly states 3 twin linked bolters!

Our first club tourney for DA isnt until May, so I'm hoping this is FAQ-clarified before then; otherwiswe I will be ruling it as bolters and bolter-parts of combis AND hurricane bolters (as they ARE bolters, fired as one weapon) are affected, nothing else. Uses SM FAQ on "bolter" for precedence.

If you want to use a FAQ for reference, use Guard. A lasgun is a lasgun. A Hotshot lasgun is not a lasgun (For FRFSRF). Therefore a boltgun is a boltgun but a stormbolter is not a boltgun. As said before it was even referenced in the entry that storm bolters are variations of boltguns.

Hurricane bolters, while not specifically boltguns, are described as 3 TL boltguns. Therefore that has some leway. Storm Bolters and Heavy Bolters have none. They are the same way as the hotshot lasgun.

Hence SM FAQ, where Sternguard dont get to use special ammo as a SB is not a Bolter. That is the most directly comparable one to use, as it references the weapons we're talking about.

At this point I don't think anyone is actually arguing that storm bolters and pistols are effected.

Probably not all i will point out to hurricane bolters is the way the DA Codex is written says it is 3 Twin-linked Boltguns that are fired as a single weapon. It seems to allow the SoD to work with them.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Our first club tourney for DA isnt until May, so I'm hoping this is FAQ-clarified before then; otherwiswe I will be ruling it as bolters and bolter-parts of combis AND hurricane bolters (as they ARE bolters, fired as one weapon) are affected, nothing else. Uses SM FAQ on "bolter" for precedence.

Remember though that the SM FAQ on "bolter" was written before 6th edition.

Not that it matters much since we are not 100% clear on what RAW says, restricting the banner to "bolters and bolter-parts of combis AND hurricane bolters (as they ARE bolters, fired as one weapon)" Is the least advantageous, and ethical, way to play it.

RIP pure Deathwing, then.

Why in the world would you want your Vulcan Mega-bolter to be Salvo 2/4?!? It's a vehicle weapon so you can always move and fire 15 shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
RIP pure Deathwing, then.

Why? Just use a different standard.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
RIP pure Deathwing, then.

Not at all, pure DW is still quite strong

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
RIP pure Deathwing, then.

Not at all, pure DW is still quite strong

QFT Deathwing company standard SoR SoF all work

Real men need no flags. XD

The real question is if this rule can be used on hurricane Bolters, combi-bolters and twin link Bolters then why are people saying "oh yeah they are all salvo 2/4 and they keep all their special rules hur hur". NO! The rule says your Bolter is now salvo 2/4. Your hurricane bolters are not 6/12 twin linked they are now 2/4 salvo non-linked, your combi-bolter and twin linked Bolters are now just salvo 2/4 (Not 2/4 twin linked).

If people are going to read super far RAW and interpret this rule as affecting everything bolter'ish then you get to swallow the good with the bad.

Darkwater wrote:
The real question is if this rule can be used on hurricane Bolters, combi-bolters and twin link Bolters then why are people saying "oh yeah they are all salvo 2/4 and they keep all their special rules hur hur". NO! The rule says your Bolter is now salvo 2/4. Your hurricane bolters are not 6/12 twin linked they are now 2/4 salvo non-linked, your combi-bolter and twin linked Bolters are now just salvo 2/4 (Not 2/4 twin linked).

Not quite.

Salvo 2/4 only replaces the Weapon type. It keeps its special rules.

A bolt pistol is a "boltgun"
Character with dual boltpistols standing still gets 8 shots! Lots of chances for a 6

 Exergy wrote:
A bolt pistol is a "boltgun"
Character with dual boltpistols standing still gets 8 shots! Lots of chances for a 6

No, as once you fire the Salvo 2/4 instead of the pistol the weapons are no longer fired as the pistol type and Gunslinger has no effect.

Darkwater wrote:
The real question is if this rule can be used on hurricane Bolters, combi-bolters and twin link Bolters then why are people saying "oh yeah they are all salvo 2/4 and they keep all their special rules hur hur". NO! The rule says your Bolter is now salvo 2/4. Your hurricane bolters are not 6/12 twin linked they are now 2/4 salvo non-linked, your combi-bolter and twin linked Bolters are now just salvo 2/4 (Not 2/4 twin linked).

This isn't really an accurate statement. Hurricane Bolters for Dark Angels aren't some 6/12 entity. They are simply three twin-linked boltguns that all fire at once.

Darkwater wrote:
The real question is if this rule can be used on hurricane Bolters, combi-bolters and twin link Bolters then why are people saying "oh yeah they are all salvo 2/4 and they keep all their special rules hur hur". NO! The rule says your Bolter is now salvo 2/4. Your hurricane bolters are not 6/12 twin linked they are now 2/4 salvo non-linked, your combi-bolter and twin linked Bolters are now just salvo 2/4 (Not 2/4 twin linked).

If people are going to read super far RAW and interpret this rule as affecting everything bolter'ish then you get to swallow the good with the bad.

They are 3 twin linked bolters, fired as one weapon. Now, what is the profile of a salvo bolter again?

Hurricane bolters are the only thing i can see maybe working outside of the normal bolter. I would allow my opponent to salvo them if he wanted, but would not do so myself. I look at the strict wording of the Imperial guard order FAQ and the sternguard FAQ as my light here, as others have mentioned.

Where do I look in my codex to see the stats on my hurricane bolters?