Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/05 20:13:37
Subject: Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver
Oklahoma
|
I would agree that the heading does not make it so, but the further definition does cause a moment for pause as it says they are all boltguns, just variations of the original.
RAI, im not really saying it works, but I dont try to RAI anymore these days GW seems to prove what we think works one way doesnt always mean the case in their logic either (Seeker missiles vs flyers?) They could very well see it being fair and balanced since a vulcan mega bolter would go from 15 shots to 4 for all I know. I simply agree with what my opponent wants if its not too outlandish. (I hate spending all my game time dealing with odd rules, I have orks to move)
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/05 20:50:46
Subject: Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
|
The thing is, people are referencing what essentially equates to a fluff piece to support option #1, and only a portion of it at that. "Boltguns" is the heading, but if you continue reading, it states stormbolters, bolt pistols, etc are considered VARIATIONS of Boltguns. Key word is "variations", meaning, not the same but similar.
Furthermore, if you look in the weapon list in the BRB, there is only one entry entitled "Boltgun", and that is all that the banner effects, if it doesn't use that statline, its not a Boltgun per the rules.
Since the Banner of Devastation does not say "Boltguns and their variations", then RAW, it only impacts Boltguns, not the various subtypes.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/05 20:58:10
Subject: Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
|
I agree it does not affect all the other types of boltgun, however saying that Boltgun and boltgun are not the same thing is a terribly weak argument when considering how many stupid errors are in the da dex
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/05 21:53:05
Subject: Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Dakka Veteran
|
I'm sticking to just boltguns like the ones used by so many tac marines. It's so simple it's dumb. Common sense tells you what it iS and any other deviation from that is just plain silly.
Question you should ask yourself is this. Are there any other salvo weapons in the game? If so what are they? Noise marines come to mind. It's not a pistol, a hurricane bolter, nor a storm bolter.
|
In a dog eat dog be a cat. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 00:02:46
Subject: Re:Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Death-Dealing Dark Angels Devastator
California
|
Boltguns, hurricane bolters and combi-weapons are all I will have affected.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 02:24:55
Subject: Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran
|
Lungpickle wrote:I'm sticking to just boltguns like the ones used by so many tac marines. It's so simple it's dumb. Common sense tells you what it iS and any other deviation from that is just plain silly.
Question you should ask yourself is this. Are there any other salvo weapons in the game? If so what are they? Noise marines come to mind. It's not a pistol, a hurricane bolter, nor a storm bolter.
All the contrary arguments so far are arguments from RAI, not RAW, or raw emotion arguments/ appeal to common sense. Since we're talking about the rules of a game here, common sense does not apply, unless you are appending a house rule. A literal reading of the rules is open to both 1. All Boltguns and 2. Bolter only interpretations.
Until an FAQ comes out we have no legitimate recourse except for prior agreement between players.
That said, Salvo 2/4 storm bolters go a long way towards making DW and terminators more competitive.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 03:01:30
Subject: Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Furious Raptor
Fort Worth, TX
|
Someone more in the know could probably point out specifics that I can't remember, but in the past, there's been precedent pointed out where GW uses a capitalized word to indicate a category and the lower case to indicate the individual item.
With that in mind, the codex's lower case use of the word 'boltgun' would indicate exactly that...the actual, specific boltgun (S4/AP5, rapid fire) weapon. This would cover TL boltguns (like hurricane bolters) and combi-bolters.
Anything else is, IMHO, someone simply looking for an exploit and too far into the simplistic use of the word. If it covered all of those weapons, it'd cost a lot more than it does.
|
I out with in both 40k and WHFB.
Co-host of the HittingOn3s Podcast
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 04:51:35
Subject: Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver
Oklahoma
|
As pointed out in so many YMDC threads before, no one really intends to use this RAW interpretation, YMDC is about what RAW means specifically. The rules for the forum state that RAI is thrown out and we deal with strict RAW.
for my orks, killing 8 ork boyz vs 3 (utilizing cover) means practically nothing so I would let them have the rule. they're going to get eaten in assault anyways. I also agree that it makes tactical termies better, though i doubt it makes them that much more competitive than standard assault DW. you still have to be near the banner to work if i recall correctly.
@kwcm: you may be right, except the BRB refers to the generic term of boltgun in lowercase and the specific boltgun is capitalized, so that puts us back to square one. Now if the DA codex (dont have one in front of me) references all boltguns as "Boltguns" then we have an instance where all standard boltguns are specifically capitalized and lowercase represents the general term.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 11:08:44
Subject: Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Powerful Phoenix Lord
|
Paitryn wrote:@kwcm: you may be right, except the BRB refers to the generic term of boltgun in lowercase and the specific boltgun is capitalized, so that puts us back to square one. Now if the DA codex (dont have one in front of me) references all boltguns as "Boltguns" then we have an instance where all standard boltguns are specifically capitalized and lowercase represents the general term.
Unfortunately, the only time "boltgun" is capitalised is when it is part of a list. If, "boltgun" refers to the list, then since DA SM bikes come with a twin-linked boltgun, I can model them as Vulcan mega-bolters, right?
|
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 13:28:28
Subject: Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Death-Dealing Devastator
|
Put it another way, try pulling the boltpistol is a Salvo 2/4 weapon at any tournament. Does anyone seriously reckon it'll be ruled as to effect anything other than the standard bolter.
All 'boltguns', look in wargear summary of the codex, one entry for boltgun. Codex trumps BRB. Problem solved.
Yes GW could tighten up their wording sometimes, but some people are just looking to capitalise on semantics.
It is however, slightly more debatable, as to the hurricane bolter. But I'm not getting into that one.
|
White Scars 2000 points
Guard 3000~ points
Grey Knights 875 points |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 13:36:45
Subject: Re:Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Sister Vastly Superior
canada
|
I think you will find most tournaments will give you their interpretation if asked before you play.
To me I think it clearly means your standard bolter and its variants ie combi, twin linked and hence hurricane bolter which clearly states 3 twin linked bolters!
|
They say you never appreciate what you have until it is gone. I fear that isn't true for your mind. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 13:43:47
Subject: Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Our first club tourney for DA isnt until May, so I'm hoping this is FAQ-clarified before then; otherwiswe I will be ruling it as bolters and bolter-parts of combis AND hurricane bolters (as they ARE bolters, fired as one weapon) are affected, nothing else. Uses SM FAQ on "bolter" for precedence.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 15:07:25
Subject: Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Foolproof Falcon Pilot
|
If you want to use a FAQ for reference, use Guard. A lasgun is a lasgun. A Hotshot lasgun is not a lasgun (For FRFSRF). Therefore a boltgun is a boltgun but a stormbolter is not a boltgun. As said before it was even referenced in the entry that storm bolters are variations of boltguns.
Hurricane bolters, while not specifically boltguns, are described as 3 TL boltguns. Therefore that has some leway. Storm Bolters and Heavy Bolters have none. They are the same way as the hotshot lasgun.
|
"Ask not the Eldar a question, for they will give you three answers, all of which are true and terrifying to know."
-Inquisitor Czevak
~14k
~10k
~5k corsairs
~3k DKOK |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 15:32:36
Subject: Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Hence SM FAQ, where Sternguard dont get to use special ammo as a SB is not a Bolter. That is the most directly comparable one to use, as it references the weapons we're talking about.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 15:34:15
Subject: Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
At this point I don't think anyone is actually arguing that storm bolters and pistols are effected.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 15:35:56
Subject: Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Fireknife Shas'el
|
Probably not all i will point out to hurricane bolters is the way the DA Codex is written says it is 3 Twin-linked Boltguns that are fired as a single weapon. It seems to allow the SoD to work with them.
|
8000 Dark Angels (No primaris)
10000 Lizardmen (Fantasy I miss you)
3000 High Elves
4000 Kel'shan Ta'u
"He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which." -Douglas Adams |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 16:34:05
Subject: Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Captain of the Forlorn Hope
|
nosferatu1001 wrote:Our first club tourney for DA isnt until May, so I'm hoping this is FAQ-clarified before then; otherwiswe I will be ruling it as bolters and bolter-parts of combis AND hurricane bolters (as they ARE bolters, fired as one weapon) are affected, nothing else. Uses SM FAQ on "bolter" for precedence.
Remember though that the SM FAQ on "bolter" was written before 6th edition.
Not that it matters much since we are not 100% clear on what RAW says, restricting the banner to "bolters and bolter-parts of combis AND hurricane bolters (as they ARE bolters, fired as one weapon)" Is the least advantageous, and ethical, way to play it.
|
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 16:51:43
Subject: Re:Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran
|
RIP pure Deathwing, then.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 17:42:13
Subject: Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
Why in the world would you want your Vulcan Mega-bolter to be Salvo 2/4?!? It's a vehicle weapon so you can always move and fire 15 shots. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why? Just use a different standard.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/06 17:42:50
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 18:08:24
Subject: Re:Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Not at all, pure DW is still quite strong
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 19:12:12
Subject: Re:Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Fireknife Shas'el
|
QFT Deathwing company standard SoR SoF all work
|
8000 Dark Angels (No primaris)
10000 Lizardmen (Fantasy I miss you)
3000 High Elves
4000 Kel'shan Ta'u
"He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which." -Douglas Adams |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 21:05:10
Subject: Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries
Ft Hood TX
|
Real men need no flags. XD
|
Retribution of Scyrah: p/eVryos, Garryth, Kaylessa. 50/150 painted.
Space Marines Salamanders (Sons of Vulcan) 500/2000 painted. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 21:34:24
Subject: Re:Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Fresh-Faced New User
|
The real question is if this rule can be used on hurricane Bolters, combi-bolters and twin link Bolters then why are people saying "oh yeah they are all salvo 2/4 and they keep all their special rules hur hur". NO! The rule says your Bolter is now salvo 2/4. Your hurricane bolters are not 6/12 twin linked they are now 2/4 salvo non-linked, your combi-bolter and twin linked Bolters are now just salvo 2/4 (Not 2/4 twin linked).
If people are going to read super far RAW and interpret this rule as affecting everything bolter'ish then you get to swallow the good with the bad.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 21:46:03
Subject: Re:Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Captain of the Forlorn Hope
|
Darkwater wrote:The real question is if this rule can be used on hurricane Bolters, combi-bolters and twin link Bolters then why are people saying "oh yeah they are all salvo 2/4 and they keep all their special rules hur hur". NO! The rule says your Bolter is now salvo 2/4. Your hurricane bolters are not 6/12 twin linked they are now 2/4 salvo non-linked, your combi-bolter and twin linked Bolters are now just salvo 2/4 (Not 2/4 twin linked).
Not quite.
Salvo 2/4 only replaces the Weapon type. It keeps its special rules.
|
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 22:21:19
Subject: Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
|
A bolt pistol is a "boltgun"
Character with dual boltpistols standing still gets 8 shots! Lots of chances for a 6
|
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++ |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 22:25:04
Subject: Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Captain of the Forlorn Hope
|
Exergy wrote:A bolt pistol is a "boltgun" Character with dual boltpistols standing still gets 8 shots! Lots of chances for a 6
No, as once you fire the Salvo 2/4 instead of the pistol the weapons are no longer fired as the pistol type and Gunslinger has no effect.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/20 23:56:38
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 22:40:12
Subject: Re:Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
|
Darkwater wrote:The real question is if this rule can be used on hurricane Bolters, combi-bolters and twin link Bolters then why are people saying "oh yeah they are all salvo 2/4 and they keep all their special rules hur hur". NO! The rule says your Bolter is now salvo 2/4. Your hurricane bolters are not 6/12 twin linked they are now 2/4 salvo non-linked, your combi-bolter and twin linked Bolters are now just salvo 2/4 (Not 2/4 twin linked).
This isn't really an accurate statement. Hurricane Bolters for Dark Angels aren't some 6/12 entity. They are simply three twin-linked boltguns that all fire at once.
|
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/06 22:49:43
Subject: Re:Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Darkwater wrote:The real question is if this rule can be used on hurricane Bolters, combi-bolters and twin link Bolters then why are people saying "oh yeah they are all salvo 2/4 and they keep all their special rules hur hur". NO! The rule says your Bolter is now salvo 2/4. Your hurricane bolters are not 6/12 twin linked they are now 2/4 salvo non-linked, your combi-bolter and twin linked Bolters are now just salvo 2/4 (Not 2/4 twin linked).
If people are going to read super far RAW and interpret this rule as affecting everything bolter'ish then you get to swallow the good with the bad.
They are 3 twin linked bolters, fired as one weapon. Now, what is the profile of a salvo bolter again?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/07 01:03:04
Subject: Re:Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Been Around the Block
|
Hurricane bolters are the only thing i can see maybe working outside of the normal bolter. I would allow my opponent to salvo them if he wanted, but would not do so myself. I look at the strict wording of the Imperial guard order FAQ and the sternguard FAQ as my light here, as others have mentioned.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/07 02:57:18
Subject: Re:Standard of Devastation
|
 |
Death-Dealing Dark Angels Devastator
California
|
Where do I look in my codex to see the stats on my hurricane bolters?
|
|
 |
 |
|