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Hi Guys

My Blood Angels army is quickly growing Seems I like painting red!

Anyway this is what I have so far:

Reclusiarch (Jump Pack) - Estoban
Chaplain (Jump Pack) - Percius
Captain (Power Fist) - Raldoran
Captain (Jump Pack, Lightning Claws) - Erias the Lost
Astorath the Grim
10x Tactical marines (Plasma/Plasma Cannon) - Squad Lamaan
10x Tactical marines (Flamer/Heavy Bolter) - Squad Targon
5x Assault Marines (Flamer, Power Weapon) - Squad Lornas
5x Death Company (Jump Packs, 2 Plasma Pistols, Power fist) - Squad Pinion
5x Death Company (Jump Packs, Thunder Hammer) - Squad Bical
5x Death Company (Jump Packs, 3x Power Fists, 2x power Weapons, Thunder Hammer) - Squad Heronicus
Death Compant Dreadnought - Laneus
5x Vanguard (2x Plasma Pistol, 3x Power Weapons) - Squad Angelicus
Land Speeder (Heavy Bolter/Assault Cannon)
Drop Pod
Rhino
Rhino
Storm Talon (Assault Cannons, Lascannons) - Stratos
Dreadnought (Assault Cannon) - Ancient Narimor
5x Terminators (Assault Cannon) - Squad Heraldicus
5x Sanguinary Guard - Squad Pelanor
Predator (Autocannon, Lascannons) - Adrius

I have a these in progress:

10x Devastator squad (2x Missile Launcher, Lascannon, Plasma Cannon, powerfist) - Squad Destris
5x Scouts (Bolt Pistols, Heavy Bolter) - Squad Upris
5x Scouts (Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher) - Squad Kegris
5x Assault Marines - Squad Agrakis
Librarian - Ephesius

So what do you think I need?

My main opponent is orks (Big mobs of boys, killa kans, deff dreads, gretchin artilary etc.)

I was thinking a Whirlwind, death company with bolters?

What do you think?

another storm raven, because when your opponent is pissed you have one he can't blow up.....that means you need another.

Perhaps more regular ASM? Oh, and a whirlwind, they are great for TAC lists.

I second whirlwinds, though I think they are much better run in pairs for the redundancy. With BA they can move 12" and shoot plus they have cover ignoring fire. Hard to argue with all that for 90 points : D

I only own one, but I may pick up a second at some point. As I have said, BA are in desperate need of cheap anything.

storm raven is always a good choice, lots of shooty goodness and a pain to shoot down

I'd say go for either more basic assault marines, another storm raven (I'm assuming thats what you actually mean, because currently BA don't have access to the storm talon, only codex marines do, or a Furiouso Dread.

EDIT: I'm also not crazy on whirlwinds. While they seem cool at first, remember that they are basically large blast heavy bolters (that have the option to fire as large-blast ignores cover bolters). I personally feel that most armies don't need more S5 shooting, and that only in the DA codex are the whirlwinds priced cheaply enough to make them worthy of consideration.

cheers all! good advice....

it is a stormtalon (its going in an allied detachment), I can't bring myself to pay fifty quid for the flying van!

A little "no cover save" can go a long way sometimes........

Totally! Given the excessive access that all armies have to cover saves in 6th anything that ignores cover has become much more valuable. Further, given the meta transition in 6th to mass infantry, an anti-infantry tank, even one with relatively average killing power, will find utility against most armies (especially IG! MUAHHAHAHAHA take that "get-down-get-up" blobs!).

To me, the lascannon/whirlwind combo in my lists are why I maintain MLs are totally useless.

I think thats decided then!

My next purchase will be a whirlwind

If I purchase a whirlwind, it will be for my DA army, since its so much cheaper for them.

Whirlwinds are kinda terrible?
I'd rather spent that money on Vindicators or more Assault Marines.

Kangodo wrote:
Whirlwinds are kinda terrible?
I'd rather spent that money on Vindicators or more Assault Marines.

Assault marines are kinda terrible.

Why are Whirlwinds bad? Ignoring cover is great considering just about everyone and their mom has a guard blob for allies.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Assault marines are kinda terrible.

Why are Whirlwinds bad? Ignoring cover is great considering just about everyone and their mom has a guard blob for allies.

Wait.. Have you ever played Blood Angels?
There's a reason that everyone plays Assault Marines in competitive BA-lists.
There is also a reason why competitive lists never play Whirlwinds.

But I will rephrase my statement, especially for you, to: "Whirlwinds aren't bad, 90% of the codex is just a better choice."

I just want to help the OP before he spends almost €50 on stuff he will probably never use after he realises how terrible it is.

Kangodo wrote:

Wait.. Have you ever played Blood Angels?
There's a reason that everyone plays Assault Marines in competitive BA-lists.
There is also a reason why competitive lists never play Whirlwinds.

But I will rephrase my statement, especially for you, to: "Whirlwinds aren't bad, 90% of the codex is just a better choice."

Sounds like you're still playing 5th edition. The only reason people bring AMs anymore is for the discounted transport with a TL lascannon on the top.

I'll give you that AMs were great in 5th, when you could DoA your whole army. And that Whirlwinds were crap in 5th when mech was everywhere. However, things have changed.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Sounds like you're still playing 5th edition. The only reason people bring AMs anymore is for the discounted transport with a TL lascannon on the top.

I'll give you that AMs were great in 5th, when you could DoA your whole army. And that Whirlwinds were crap in 5th when mech was everywhere. However, things have changed.

Hard to "still" play it when I never played 5th edition and got all the information from 6th.

Every tactica and every competitive list will tell you that Assault Marines are good.
Why? Because they move 12 inch and have double Melta after which they can still charge.

Whirlwinds are bad because they are 90 points and do not bring enough to justify those 90 points.

So please, explain to me why they are better than adding a Vindicator or a Priest or even 5 more Assault Marines.
And while you are at it, go to http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/forum/109-blood-angel-army-lists/ and tell every competitive list in there that "they are doing it wrong for 6th!"

 Griddlelol wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

Wait.. Have you ever played Blood Angels?
There's a reason that everyone plays Assault Marines in competitive BA-lists.
There is also a reason why competitive lists never play Whirlwinds.

But I will rephrase my statement, especially for you, to: "Whirlwinds aren't bad, 90% of the codex is just a better choice."

Sounds like you're still playing 5th edition. The only reason people bring AMs anymore is for the discounted transport with a TL lascannon on the top.

I'll give you that AMs were great in 5th, when you could DoA your whole army. And that Whirlwinds were crap in 5th when mech was everywhere. However, things have changed.

I dunno about that, it sounds like you're still in 5th. From my understanding, Razorspam is dead. As for Whirlwinds... well, don't glue the turret on is all I have to say. I'm thoroughly unconvinced by them to say the least.

Kangodo wrote:

Hard to "still" play it when I never played 5th edition and got all the information from 6th.

Every tactica and every competitive list will tell you that Assault Marines are good.
Why? Because they move 12 inch and have double Melta after which they can still charge.

Whirlwinds are bad because they are 90 points and do not bring enough to justify those 90 points.

So please, explain to me why they are better than adding a Vindicator or a Priest or even 5 more Assault Marines.
And while you are at it, go to http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/forum/109-blood-angel-army-lists/ and tell every competitive list in there that "they are doing it wrong for 6th!"

Sounds like someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

Assault marines are weak because they are costly with very little power. They bring a melta per 5 men. Cool. Wait no, the other one; lame. They die like ordinary marines, but for almost double the cost. Don't have long range weapons and are likely to get stuck in assault because they're shockingly weak in assault. When DoA was viable, assault marines were awesome. Now they're just more expensive, faster tacticals, with less shooting prowess.

90 points to ignore cover saves and most armor saves. They can blow through guard blobs and ignore aegis defence lines which as I said, are both very common. Almost every imperial list is bringing guard now, and the whirlwind is decent against xenos too. It's really not hard to make those points back, especially as they start firing from turn 1 unlike everything else you mentioned.

Vindicators are great, so are priests, but assault marines are just below par. The only way I can see them used now is for a 5man melta-suicide unit with a combi-melta on the sergeant, or as I said before, as a discounted TL LC razorback.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

I dunno about that, it sounds like you're still in 5th. From my understanding, Razorspam is dead.

If you notice, I said the only reason to take them. Not the best way. Razorspam is hardly great anymore, but a cheap scoring unit with a TL lascannon isn't horrible.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

I dunno about that, it sounds like you're still in 5th. From my understanding, Razorspam is dead.

If you notice, I said the only reason to take them. Not the best way. Razorspam is hardly great anymore, but a cheap scoring unit with a TL lascannon isn't horrible.

I think you're discounting the value of a jump pack for a measly +2 points (which, unlike what you said earlier, is not double the cost of a Marine, with the only trade-off being a lost bolter). The mobility jump packs offer you is amazing, and is totally worth the additional 2 points. Furthermore, they're actually cheaper than a Tactical Squad in that regard since you won't have to purchase a transport for them. I think you're speaking in absolutes a bit too much, because clearly extremely mobile, scoring Assault Marines with FNP and FC from the likely-attached priest are still pretty useful even if you don't particularly like them.

Also, I never really found DoA lists to be particularly good in 5th because they'd get 1 round of shooting off on me and then I'd charge them back. Off the charge, 5th ed BA were weak and easy to kill.

Whirlwinds are not bad. The BA codex is bad. 90% of the codex is *not* better than said whirlwinds. The BA have many pricey toys that don't do squat in the new reality of 6th edition.

My hybrid mech list usually brings one whirlwind and I'm contemplating a second. The are great for several reasons. BA whirlwinds can move 12" and fire, and can run behind cover and still keep shooting. Ignores cover is an important mechanic with things like DE/Eldar invisbility beast blobs running around. STR 5 template is decent at torrenting wounds and it can be used to "barrage snipe" heavy weapons, special weapons, and sergeants out of squads.

BA ASM routinely get mashed by all kinds things found in 6th now that we lost access to init 5. Our characters were already in the hole from crappy equipment selection and god awful special characters.

Oh yeah, losing I5 was a huge loss for BA (something I called back when 6th first dropped; my BA friend didn't believe this until my Grey Hunters started soundly whooping his Assault Squads, when in 5th they had generally gotten severely hurt before they could attack). That said, BA still have mobility on their side, which should help them to dictate when they want to fight. You can always get some allies to alleviate problems as well (DA or IG typically). Certainly not a top-tier army anymore though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In response to the OP, I'd recommend a Librarian. And if you're fighting Orks usually, then you can't go wrong with a Whirlwind.

Mobility is of limited use vs good players. It just is. I know, because when I borrow my buddy's Necron army, I don't care what the BA do in their movement phase.

You should fielding 60 Assault Marines with Sanguinary Priests and Jump Pack HQ's. It works well against certain armies, but fall flat against strong gunelines.

Fielding a list that only works against certain armies sounds like a poor plan. The 60 ASM scheme is far to vulnerable against many common schemes now.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

I think you're discounting the value of a jump pack for a measly +2 points which, unlike what you said earlier, is not double the cost of a Marine, with the only trade-off being a lost bolter.

Yeah I got that wrong, I was thinking of the upgrade in the armory.
I really don't think that moving 12" is worth losing a heavy weapon, since that's the trade off I'm more concerned about. Also the lack of plasma weapons in assault squads hurts them. That 12" has little effect when it's easy to predict their movement. Similarly, barrage weapons don't care if you move behind cover, they're still going to shoot at you.

60 ASM isn't really a good idea considering almost everyone plays a gunline, or at least a variation on that theme. Getting blown of the table is a common occurrence for my regular BA opponent. Not much makes it into combat, and when it does it's fed a cheap unit to shut it up for an assault phase.

I find assault marines are only good for grabbing objectives. In general they are underwhelming in 6th.

Martel732 wrote:
Mobility is of limited use vs good players. It just is.

Mobility is king. Always has been, always will be. Heck, especially against Necrons. The vast majority of Necron shooting is limited to 24". Smart commanders with fast units can isolate and overwhelm flank Necron units by disallowing the Necron player to shift his firepower enough to bring it to bear on the attackers before they have done their dirty work. On the other end, mobility allows a defending commander to shift resources quickly to counter an attacking player's move.

(Though, Necrons in Nightscythes have the best mobility in the game outside of Eldar bikes. Damn Necrons have an answer for everything )




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
I find assault marines are only good for grabbing objectives. In general they are underwhelming in 6th.

Luckily, grabbing objectives is the point of 5 out of 6 game types in 6th Edition

Reasonable points being made here, shouldn't be ignored. Even if coming from a filthy Necron player.

.... kidding. Maybe.