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Given that most now consider that GW is in it for the money now and not the hobby, I wondered how long they will resist setting up a kickstarter project?

They must be aware of the recent success of projects like Sedition Wars, Zombicide and Mantic's two winners in Kings of War/Dreadball. There are several others just completed and or in progress at the moment. Add to this the speculation about the next big box exclusive game and whether there would be one after the poor response to Dreadfleet.

To me it seems a no brainer to the bean counters at GW. You have made plans for the release but want to ensure a guaranteed return on your investment what better way than to kickstart it. I want to keep away from Warhammer Quest - to near Descent and Bloodbowl - it would be copying Dreadball's KS, so let us suppose it will be Battlefleet Gothic.

It would start with a "standard box" as before Imperial and Chaos, first stretch point would be upgraded components, plastic markers etc, new stretches would add plastic light cruisers , frigates etc. Higher pledges get you these as your "sweet deal" and GW have a guaranteed sell.

Now the interesting bit at the higher levels new fleets are introduced, the money pledged goes a little way towards costs of new moulds required. These new fleets could be add on buys again allowing GW to gauge response and tailor the releases to maximise profit

I know that Kickstarters are supposed to finance new ideas bit but as the recent CMON KS of Rivets showed sometimes the product is already 80% complete and the monies are being asked for to get it into the marketplace

The answer your looking for is never.

Games Workshop has never really shown themselves to be a company embracing new avenues of marketing have they? Just look at how the use the internetz/social media.

Most likely never.

But in theory, if they were worried about a potential new project, perhaps something like a new release of Epic, they could do that with kick starter, guarantee the money...

No. GW's investor information regularly states that their free cash exceeds their investment opportunities, so they're handing it out as dividends instead of increased stock prices. They don't need more free cash for investment because they don't spend what they already have. That, and modern GW hates sales, so would not be offering anything worthwhile to attract pledges.

Never happen.

That, and modern GW hates sales, so would not be offering anything worthwhile to attract pledges.

That's a primary reason right there.

The other reason I suprised no one has mentioned is that GW's tendency to be closed mouth to the point of paranoia about letting their customers know what their upcoming releases are is not condusive to the Kickstarter model.

TR

If GW needed more money to fund a project, they could just not issue a dividend for a quarter....and then spend more money then they would probably get out of kickstarter.
Hell they could just dilute their stock to raise the money (like disney did).

Kickstarter has no real benefit for publicly traded corporations, especially ones who own their manufacturing means on gws scale

 Lightcavalier wrote:
If GW needed more money to fund a project, they could just not issue a dividend for a quarter....

That's cute.

wilycoyote wrote:
Given that most now consider that GW is in it for the money now and not the hobby

let's all expect a private company to operate completely pro bono publico. Yeah, no.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lightcavalier wrote:
If GW needed more money to fund a project, they could just not issue a dividend for a quarter....and then spend more money then they would probably get out of kickstarter.
Hell they could just dilute their stock to raise the money (like disney did).

Kickstarter has no real benefit for publicly traded corporations, especially ones who own their manufacturing means on gws scale

Yeah. I don't think GW lack the money to invest in things, even if they did a loan would be a lot less hassle than kickstarter.

The closest GW would ever come to doing anything like a KS project would be to set up a preorder system on their website where once X number of preorders are reached, they'll produce the product.

A company as large as GW doesn't need Kickstarter funds. They are there to start up businesses and to help propel products that otherwise wouldn't have the necessary funding to be created.

Also, GW would go through incredible amounts of public controversy and hatred, and seeing as there would be next to nobody would support it, it would probably dent them a bit.

Will GW do a KS project,

No basically, as has been said above, they say they've more money than they can invest so 'have' to hand out large dividends,

going to KS to fund a project would make it look like that was not true, and thus unsettle the markets

However, I've no objection to a GW sized company using KS to bring a new project to market, especially if it's a bit different to their current run of stuff. Crowd funding is just that, a way to direct market new stuff. Just because a company is large and/or rich is no reason to say they can't use it.

(I would expect better discounts/freebies from a large rich company than I would from a brand new startup though)

I think that they're too big to do something like this. Imagine Microsoft crowd funding Windows 9!

 AlexHolker wrote:
No. GW's investor information regularly states that their free cash exceeds their investment opportunities, so they're handing it out as dividends instead of increased stock prices. They don't need more free cash for investment because they don't spend what they already have. That, and modern GW hates sales, so would not be offering anything worthwhile to attract pledges.

This. They are a publically traded company, I'm not sure about the exact ins and outs but I can't imagine it being possible. The second reason of course is that they simply don't need it, they have got more than enough capital to launch a new venture if they decide that is what they want to do - sadly for all of us however, with the exception of Dreadfleet, they seem to have been content to continue trotting the same old stuff recently with very little in the way of innovation.

Kirby stated the whole KS vehicle was just a fad...

 Chronepsis wrote:
Kirby stated the whole KS vehicle was just a fad...

I hope he is right on this one, I really do... KS's are out of control atm and I'm not sure this money drain is actually doing any good to the industry. It may be good for a handfull of companies but has a whole I have great concerns about the outfit that... actually produces miniatures and puts their own money upfront.

 Chronepsis wrote:
Kirby stated the whole KS vehicle was just a fad...

He may be right, at least in the way that we cannot see the constant flood of $$ to KS, especially as many of the KS don't deliver on promises and products produced don't meet expectations. We are in the middle of a flood of KS riding a wave of goodwill and fulfilling draughts in the market. Eventually we will reach a place where the market doesn't have any 'new things' which need to be KSed and people will either be stingier with thier money or already tapped out. I have to say I spent more in 2012 on KS than I did from 2007-2011 total. Companies are already ramping up the next KS and they haven't delivered all of my stuff from the first KS. My goodwill is worn thin and my money is sapped. I know I may be sitting out many 'round 2' KS to see final products and pay retail opposed to discount.

I don't think we will see a steady growth and size of KS like we did at the onset with the initial explosion. In fact, I have been seeing way more KSs fail recently and companies trying a second and third time to 'fund' where they make the fund number very low. I think people are getting more critical on what they expect and will support.

Anyways, in regards to GW... Why does KS exist?

*For companies who can't get loans to get funding: GW has money, doesn't need loans, doesn't have to pay interest to make new products. A KS would mean a % to Amazon just to handle the money and a expected 'discount' which cuts into profits. Why bother entertaining a discount or a fee to handle money when you have piles of money on hand?

*To get feedback and tune what you make to be exactly what your customer base wants: I know the small number of online people a KS would actually reach (mostly non-customers, or vets) want to give feedback and control creative direction. GW doesn't need our input and clearly doesn't want it. They make what they want and their designs and releases are 3-4 years in the pipeline sometimes. There is really zero need for community collaboration especially if it was a KS of a specialist release. Heroquest and Bloodbowl don't really need community input.

*Allow people to pre-order with deep discounts in exchange for financial support to cover production: If I need the money to get the product made, then KS makes sense. If I have the money, I can use my own capital, do market research to make sure what I make is wanted and release it, I accept all the risk, I get all the reward. KS is deferring risk for less profit in the end. Why would GW need to do that?

People WANT KS format because of the perceived impact on creation control and the deep discounts. Two things which small niche products can benefit from but GW really has no reason to step into that arena. It can be argued due to fees and discounts they would actually make LESS money than they would with regular releases with no guaranteed gain in sales or customer reach. It makes the entire idea a colossal waste of time for GW.

I wouldn't go near Kickstarting as an avenue unless I really had no other option for startup funds or I needed the market research of real funding drive to help determine what I need to make. You may make a good foundation for a small start up, but you won't get rich Kickstarting.

Never

They hate the internet

Trench-Raider wrote:The other reason I suprised no one has mentioned is that GW's tendency to be closed mouth to the point of paranoia about letting their customers know what their upcoming releases are is not condusive to the Kickstarter model.

Maybe Rick Priestley was too long with Games Workshop, so he made a kickstarter with "Give us half a million dollars and your ideas, and we try to make something out of it, promise!"

Chronepsis wrote:Kirby stated the whole KS vehicle was just a fad...

Like the internet?
Or advertising?

nkelsch wrote:

I wouldn't go near Kickstarting as an avenue unless I really had no other option.

That's the thing mate, small companies that have been doing this for several years depend on their sales numbers to invest on producing new stuff... if the biggest chunk of money from the clients goes into supporting KS's there is suddenly a shortage of money ( as you said you invested more than you normally do and now feel drained)... as such, at least one regarded company is reporting such loss in sales that they either do a KS now or they will die.

Who are these 'most' you refer to?

As for GW using kickstarter, I doubt.

Your argument makes no sense, if they love money so much..why give 10-15% to amazon and kickstarter!?

It wont happen.

 NAVARRO wrote:

 Chronepsis wrote:
Kirby stated the whole KS vehicle was just a fad...

I hope he is right on this one, I really do... KS's are out of control atm and I'm not sure this money drain is actually doing any good to the industry. It may be good for a handfull of companies but has a whole I have great concerns about the outfit that... actually produces miniatures and puts their own money upfront.

I hope you just mean for miniatures.

But as a whole, I hope kickstarting is not a fad, including for miniature games. I hope crowdfunding stabilizes and becomes seen as a legitimate way of funding a project of various descriptions. When used properly, it's a tool that can put a lot of power back in the hands of the consumers and the creatives.

A Kickstarter would be nice/smart for GW: it would drum up interests, and give them an idea of how many people want their project for a new game or a re-release of an old, outdated one. That said, while smart, it won't happen.
GW does know what the Internet is, and in reality, they know it's not going anywhere. But they don't embrace it. They also don't like giving previews anymore. Ignoring dividends (which I have no knowledge on), they won't do KS for the reasons I listed. And then some.

I would love to see GW use KS to see if a full scale reintroduction of the following games was worthwhile:
Mordheim
Necromunda
Warhammer Quest

All those games are over a decade old, and I still play all of them. GW does not feel that there is a market? Kick Start it and find out.

Not gonna happen, but it would be nice.

I have had good luck with all the Kickstarters that I have backed - only one was late, and that was only a few weeks.

Two I am still waiting on - Reaper Bones looks to be on track for release on schedule, and Kings of War, which has been drowned out by Dreadball - I have no idea if it is on track or not. The rule book was on time, and quite nice - I have played about twenty games of it so far.

A friend is waiting on Razor Coast - I would have pledged, but he wants to run. I wanna play for a change.

In the past I have pledged for Zombicide (great game!), for Rappan Athuck (my players took one look at the book and yelled 'noooo!), and for Dwarven Adventurers (only to have one of my players run off with the necromancer, having pounced on it with a glad cry).

I think that game companies latching onto Kickstarter is in part because the banks have become more cautious. And at least one did so because his wife has told him that they were not going to invest that much again.

It is not so much a fad as something that is increasingly necessary.

The Auld Grump

 Fafnir wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

 Chronepsis wrote:
Kirby stated the whole KS vehicle was just a fad...

I hope he is right on this one, I really do... KS's are out of control atm and I'm not sure this money drain is actually doing any good to the industry. It may be good for a handfull of companies but has a whole I have great concerns about the outfit that... actually produces miniatures and puts their own money upfront.

I hope you just mean for miniatures.

But as a whole, I hope kickstarting is not a fad, including for miniature games. I hope crowdfunding stabilizes and becomes seen as a legitimate way of funding a project of various descriptions. When used properly, it's a tool that can put a lot of power back in the hands of the consumers and the creatives.

Just talking about miniatures production.
I believe many other industries are probably considerable bigger and can absorb KS's better...
KS's idea is good but like anything if you abuse it to much it becomes something entirely different.

 NAVARRO wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

I wouldn't go near Kickstarting as an avenue unless I really had no other option.

That's the thing mate, small companies that have been doing this for several years depend on their sales numbers to invest on producing new stuff... if the biggest chunk of money from the clients goes into supporting KS's there is suddenly a shortage of money ( as you said you invested more than you normally do and now feel drained)... as such, at least one regarded company is reporting such loss in sales that they either do a KS now or they will die.

And the small companies have been doing small releases of models one by one. And I support them. But these KS have been going after money where they want your next 6 months of purchases all at once opposed to other companies who are releasing products one by one as they are ready.

My biggest issue is some of the KS companies are not delivering on time, delivering inferior quality based upon what was expected, and once they get your money, go very silent. I am finding myself returning back to 'small companies' who make a product under their own power, release the product with a final picture and if I want it, I buy it at full price. I am finding myself much more satisfied with what I purchase and the discount of pre-funding is not worth the 8+ month lag-time.

It was a great experiment, had a nice explosion and I feel like the wargaming mini industry is 'hungover' right now, and it is hurting everyone. It will eventually correct itself, but I already feel like new KSs trying to make a crapton of money are now failing in spectacular fashion now. I have seen KS who already had stretch goals to 200k and barley pull in 20k. And when there was a KS I am totally satisfied with, I barley got my product to enjoy and they are already begging for round 2!

GW shouldn't go anywhere near this... and my money is going to go more and more to people who have FINAL PRODUCTS ready for immediate purchase regardless of discount.

Agree with all of your post but this quote kind off sums up my feelings towards KS's vs Traditional manufacturers.

nkelsch wrote:


my money is going to go more and more to people who have FINAL PRODUCTS ready for immediate purchase regardless of discount.

Exactly my take on this, I mean if someone takes his own time and money to produce, sculpt, cast, paint a mini for their own stores (and I know that I will receive it in my doorstep in 2 weeks time)... then they have my support and will get my money first.
It's more rewarding for me personally to buy a mini I see on a store, get it asap on my painting table and have fun with it... waiting half a year for a KS is not my idea of fun.

The closest GW sill come to kickstart projects is that mail they sent out in January for some new zero-discout box sets with which we can kickstart our new GW armies.

 Lightcavalier wrote:
If GW needed more money to issue a dividend for a quarter, they could just not fund a project....

Fixed that for you

Long and short answer is no (and no with a lot more o's). GW has no need of a KS campaign because they have already gone through the 'difficult accumulate money' phase of business. KS campaigns are fantastic for small/start-up/one-off companies who can't raise the capital to really hit the market in a big way by other means, all we are doing is shifting the money transactions around.

Big business (GW) uses a model like this:
Spend $1million, develop profitable project, rake in $3million

start-ups/etc use:
Get $1million in debit, develop project, hopefully rake in $3million, pay debtors + a little profit. (rinse and repeat until they have enough to start doing the big business method)

All kickstarter is doing is adjusting the equation so it looks like this:
Rake in $3million, spend $1.5million to pay for production & KS bonuses, profit $1.5million.

Which reduces the risk on the producers and the consumers (i.e. if no-one likes it, they haven't wasted $1million on a failed project, if the project fails, no-one has spent money on a crap product. GW has no need of this kind of strategy, they can crank out any old crap, if people like it, roll in the dough, if they don't, well it's not going to financially shut them down due to their size/etc.

I know my example is very simplistic, but you get the general idea...