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Following on from the 'has GW priced people out?' thread, a lot of it hinges around the entry cost and what size of army is pretty much required in order to take part in the gaming community. So I thought it might help to try and narrow that down first.

From your experiences, what point size games are played in your local clubs, and what's the minimum sized army you'd feel you need to take part in the club?
How many points would you need to take part in events from time to time?

I appreciate I could, if I wanted, play a 50 point game with a friend at home, but if I were planning on walking into a store/club/event to play with strangers, what would I need to have available?

I'm going to suggest 1000pt for 40K, it seems to be the min size required for Warhammer World events, and a commonly banded figure on forums. So what do people think?

40k : 1000pts is a good size i'd say. Its large enough that you can take a few different units instead of just the 1hq, 2 troops min. Also avoids some of the more powerful SC etc being brought but doesnt stop you taking say a LR if you feel like it.

For fantasy: I've only been playing fantasy for a while but I'd say 1500 pts is a decent size for a small game of fantasy, at 1000 I generally find its abit too small and can actually make certain armies alot harder to play, for instance Vampire counts.

Just my own opinion, plus i find games at this points level don't take very long so theres the added benefit of having a few games

For 40k, since I have no clue about fantasy:

Absolute minimum to play the game seriously: 1000 points. Anything less and you're barely covering the minimum troops + HQ and not really experiencing the full game. Besides limiting your own enjoyment you're also going to have a hard time finding people who are interested in playing anything smaller than 1000 points.

Minimum to easily play pickup games: 1500 points. Sure, some people will go down to 1000 but if that's your absolute maximum point total then you're not going to be playing if someone wants a 1250-1500 point game. 1000 points can be fun, but it does put some real constraints on what you can bring and not everyone has a convenient army ready to go at that point level (for example, they might want to use a character that just eats up too high a percentage of their army at 1000 points). Expanding to 1500 points opens things up a lot more and makes it a lot easier to meet people halfway when they brought a large army that day.

Minimum to have options: 2000-2500 points. Let's be honest here, 40k is a game of list optimization and unless you spend a lot of time studying the game your first 1000 points are not going to be a well-optimized army. If you're trying to play an X point game with only X points of models available you're going to be locked into a single list, and it's not going to be a good list. What you ideally want is to have more points than you really need so you have the ability to choose a well designed list instead of being forced to throw everything you own on the table and hope it works. A 2000-2500 point collection is enough to cover the most common game sizes (even a "large" game usually caps at 2000 points) with some options left over.

The absolute, positive minimum level in 40k would be 500 points.

1000 for both systems, leaning to 1500 for WHFB.

I know if someone asks me to play anything less than 1500 in WHFB I'll turn them down unless I am playing a friend who is still building his army/learning the game. It's just too small for my VC to put together an effective list.
Even then though that is the bare minimum, I can fit in what I need to play, I don't get any of the fun stuff till 2000 so when someone sets up a 1850 tourney near me I still think 'really.. what can I take in that small a game?'

I've played quite a few more games of 40k at 500 or 1000 points than at 1500 or higher. But then, I was playing on vassal, where that still wound up being a three or four hour game...

Plus 1 for 500pts... Then again I play space marines so it might be different for others

500pt games, without HQ choices or at least remove the compulsory/minimum points rule on them.

500pts have traditionally been used to represent outflanking units of troops away from the main battle, perhaps an all cav encounter between scouting forces in a mountain pass or two rival advance parties of fast attack troops seeking an artifact ahead of their parent armies.

I second the 1000 pts for 40k and 1500 for Fantasy. With fewer points, the gameplay is rather poor.

This being said, one way for beginners to play is to join mega battles. They can bring any size force they like and still participate.

Several questions in one. Here,

Club play.
The OP asked about participating in a club. For that around here folks seem to be asking for 1250 or higher, so I'd say 1000 points would be enough to get folks to give you a pickup, but you really want to have 1250-1500.

Event play:
Depends on the event, but I think you're going to need in the range of 1500-1750 for most events.

Fun play
Minimum for an interesting game using standard rules is a different matter. I'd say maybe 750, though if you and your opponent agree to use minimum size squads and leave the big vehicles/characters/etc at home. I could see an engaging game happening at the 500 point level. GW has at various times published guidelines for small games with names like "40k in 40 minutes" or "Combat Patrol" so it's not an unknown concept.

Of course if you want to play old style kill team ( not the gutted version in "battle missions") then you can go even smaller....

Our group, games didn't become "real" in 40k until they hit 750 points. That's usually when you start to see more than just the compulsory parts of the force org.

1500 sounds okay for fantasy, but I recall having plenty of fun and depth of play at 750 points in the escalation league. So happpy in between of 1300 sounds about right.

40k: 1000 pts. Yes you can play below this but its generally less fun.

Fantasy: 1500pts. Yes you can play below this but it is rather boring.

Can't believe I didn't come up with this yet...40k: Combat Patrol. 400 pts.

Heh, most popular thing at the store lately has been 200 pt kill team with the new GW KT pack. Fast and fun!

I can't really find a game in my local under 1500 points

I have been playing 40K in an escalation campaign. We started at 500 points and your HQ was fixed at the start (but able to gain more abilities in the game). I have had some of my most memorable games at that point level. Is it balanced? Hell no, but it was a blast.

500pts can be fun. 40k in 40 minutes is what they used to call it.

You would be surprised how fun it can be for organized play to play on 4x4 boards and use 500points. Usually with a smaller Force org like 1HQ, 1E, 1FA, 1 HS or something.

Can you break it? can it be unbalanced? sure, but you can do that at 1000 and 1500 too.

We regularly run 400pts tournaments at the store I help out at, and they work well. You can gert a force together surprisingly cheaply for this, as a battleforce is generally enough with minimal addition.

My advice, go with alternative models. Much cheaper, thus making points requirements less of a burden. This is certainly much easier in fantasy, but it can be done to some extent in 40k as well, specially so with IG.

Been a while since I played either, but I generally find 40K doesn't really become fun until about 1000 points, and WHFB until about 1500, with 1500-2000 being optimal for 40K and 2000-2500 being optimal for Fantasy.


With that said, 40K still works between 500-1000, though it's not terribly exciting, IMO. Fantasy is just... not good below 1500 and awful below 1000.

This is, of course, all my opinion, and I've never played Kill Team rules, but it looks like that might make 40K work sub-1000. I don't know first hand, though.

My personal minimums are 1500 40k and 2k fantasy. Anything less isn't worth it to me.

I have no input on WFB, but 40K balances nicely at 1500.

If you go below 1500 some armies gain unfair advantages and conversely if you go above 1500 some armies gain unfair advantages.

But to answer the question more directly... 500 points is going to be the absolute least.

I would follow the School League points values as good minimum points levels to play at:

Warhammer - 800 points
Warhammer 40,000 - 600 points
Lord of the Rings / The Hobbit - 500 points.

These let you play quick, fun games with small armies that don't take long to get together.

I played in a 600 point tourney a couple weeks ago, it was a great time and for a Thursday night a whole lot of fun. The last couple games I have played have been a mix of 2000/1850 pts and 500pts with a new player. They were enjoyable in their own ways, so I really don't think you need a large army to have a good time.

500 points is possible, 750 is when it actually becomes enjoyable.

I've played in 40k tournaments from 500pts to 2500pts. I find 1500 to be the most enjoyable: you start to be able to field some synergy and stop most of the gaps, without feeling like you're missing out.

600-750pt tournaments can be fun - we had a 4 game tourney in a single club night which was a raging success, and there is also a regular 750pt 'hobbyist' tournament that runs regularly. It can be fun for some armies, but the balance swings wildly (I find my Tau do much better at lower points levels than high).

At my club, if you show up with 1500pts of 40k, or 2500ptsof fantasy, you'll find a game.

When my gaming group (4 strong) started out we played 500pts games to learn the rules. stepping up to 1000pts then 1500pts.

In reality 1000pts provides you with options and a good game. Anything under this for experienced players will be too quick and a bit low on unit options.

Local clubs near us play at 1500pts.

All the above relates to 40K.

Fantasy we started at 1000pts, stepping up to 1500pts once we got to grips with the basics. Then we stopped playing as most people prefer 40k.

As was said earlier 1000 for 40k/1500 for WHFB is a good size for a minimum army. I would lean more towards 1500/2000 though, but I really dislike small games.

My whole group has always used 500pts as the baseline army size when starting a new army. Buy 500pts, start playing.

We never run into issues with not being able to include the two tropps and HQ minimum. I can see it maybe being an issue with a Grey Knight Paladin army, but that's definitely the exception. In my experience, it lets you bring a HQ, troops, and something fun. Hell, I've fit a Land Raider in a 500pt game, though that was back in 3rd edition.