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Hi

Just wanted to know your opinions on what the best type of Leman Russ is.

I was thinking battle tank as it's the cheapest and quite well rounded but I'd quite like to know which is best against horde armies
(Tyranids and Orks mostly)

Thanks

Likely the Bolterboat Punisher.

That much Str5, and 9 shots of it is AP4 will put a huge dent in hordes.

Punisher will put quite a few wounds in. Especially with sponson bolters and hull bolter.

Standard battle tank isn't horrible against these. Although don't bother putting any other guns on it as they will have to snap fire when firing ordnance.

I wouldn't bother with any other variants for the job of horde control. I mean you could go eradicator if your worried about cover saves, but I'm not a fan for point cost.

I would even think about a basilisk for something that I think that can do the same job even better determining on your list needs. It's all situational

If the horde's coming at you, the Punisher or standard Battle Tank are solid choice, if there tends to be a lot of cover, the eradicator isn't terrible.

Almost every russ aside from the vanquisher can hurt hordes, but those three are your best choices. Punisher can get a little pricy however, but if you're fighting 'nids, throwing pask in there will make it a bit more expensive, but re-rolling all failed wounds on those large beasties, and BS4, is a worthwhile investment.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
If the horde's coming at you, the Punisher or standard Battle Tank are solid choice, if there tends to be a lot of cover, the eradicator isn't terrible.

Almost every russ aside from the vanquisher can hurt hordes, but those three are your best choices. Punisher can get a little pricy however, but if you're fighting 'nids, throwing pask in there will make it a bit more expensive, but re-rolling all failed wounds on those large beasties, and BS4, is a worthwhile investment.

I'd say the battle tank is one of the worst against hordes. 1 shot per turn that will catch maybe 4? With a 50%-ish hit rate?

A bolter-boat punisher is probably the best choice, if you're wanting to keep it cheap and cheerful you could go exterminator, but don't expect miracles from it.

My problem with Pask in the Punisher is that with a 24" range on the main gun, you're not going to get a lot of uses out of the re-roll wounds considering he has to stay still to use it. So effectively 50pts for BS4? Not sure if that's a worth while investment.

If you want to exclusively kill hordes, the eradicator would be a good choice. I'm assuming that the hordes have a 4+ or worse save, so the main gun would be pretty effective. It ignores cover, which is the main way that hordes try to up their resilience. Also, it is the only large blast weapon that can use sponsons to full effect. Blasts may have trouble against properly dispersed units, but this is harder to achieve for a horde army.

I would probably just go for a bolter bolt eradicator, although you would have to get your AT power from elsewhere in case you come across tanks or MCs.

I also say Eradicator, if it is absolutely only for hordes. Ignoring an Aegis/KFF/Gargoyle screen is definitely a bonus. You directly counter strategies that the horde player has grown comfortable using in every single game.

 Griddlelol wrote:


I'd say the battle tank is one of the worst against hordes. 1 shot per turn that will catch maybe 4? With a 50%-ish hit rate?

A bolter-boat punisher is probably the best choice, if you're wanting to keep it cheap and cheerful you could go exterminator, but don't expect miracles from it.

My problem with Pask in the Punisher is that with a 24" range on the main gun, you're not going to get a lot of uses out of the re-roll wounds considering he has to stay still to use it. So effectively 50pts for BS4? Not sure if that's a worth while investment.

With the number of shots a punisher turns out, that BS4 can significantly increase the number of hits you're getting on the enemy. Also, given that Tyranids are fond of deepstriking MCs, the pask-punisher can form a nasty surprise for a Trygon popping up in your backfield. I won't say it's totally cost efficient, but for me, that BS4 often results 8 more hits or more. A couple turns of that even against gaunts or boys will pay back the cost of admission by the end of the game.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that. I'm not convinced BS4 is worth 50pts, even on a punisher (however a Vanquisher makes excellent use, considering it rarely has to move).
I do often take SW allies, and a punisher is quite often a target of Prescience, so I can see your logic behind wanting it to be more accurate. It's just that for the 100pt RP the punisher not only gets better accuracy than BS4, but I also have an ATSKNF blob and amazing psychic defence.

I don't think many 'nid players use Trygons any more either, but that could just be my personal experience (I've seen 1 since 6th dropped).

I've been running pask a bit recently, and, interestingly enough, the biggest problem I've been finding about him isn't his price, but that he needs to remain immobile.

In the case of a bolter-boat punisher, you're not going to need to stay still for the +S against vehicles, though. As such, you've got to sort of just look at it by killing power. 50 points gets you an extra 5 hits per point. 10 points per S5 hits is actually the most efficient way to get S5 hits in the codex, and it's also a lot easier to sneak in 50 points for pask than 200 points for another bolter boat punisher. Plus, you still always have the option of sitting still and S6 spamming the HELL out of vehicles at very close ranges (probably one of the better anti-flier units in the codex).

 Ailaros wrote:
I've been running pask a bit recently, and, interestingly enough, the biggest problem I've been finding about him isn't his price, but that he needs to remain immobile.

That was kinda my point; with a Punisher, you don't want to be immobile with the relatively short range. So in essence you're paying 50pts for BS4 and on occasions the other bonuses when you finally get to sit still. I feel that 50pts is too much for that. I'd much rather it be cheaper and mobile.

The Eradicator does nasty things to hordes. Str6 AP4 ignores cover large blast murders Orks and Nids.

Griddlelol wrote:with a Punisher, you don't want to be immobile with the relatively short range. So in essence you're paying 50pts for BS4 and on occasions the other bonuses when you finally get to sit still.

But you only need to sit still when shooting at vehicles.

If you're using it to shoot at hordes, then you're not going to be spending much time shooting it at vehicles, and therefore you don't need to keep him immobile. You're using pask for his BS4, not his +1S.

Indeed, I personally feel 50pts is too much for a BS upgrade.

It really starts to make the punisher a juicy target too. Especially as it has to get relatively close to bring its full fire-power to bear. I'm not entirely comfortable with investing that many points into something either.

Griddlelol wrote:Indeed, I personally feel 50pts is too much for a BS upgrade.

Where else in the codex can you get 5 S5 hits for only 50 points?

Griddlelol wrote: I'm not entirely comfortable with investing that many points into something either.

I would normally agree, but in this case, we're talking about an AV14 chassis, which makes this less of a deal.

Plus, look at it holistically. You're spending 250 points, yes, but for something that has 3HP of AV14 and puts down 20 S5/6 hits per turn. You get what you pay for, even if it does make you a bigger target.

 Ailaros wrote:

Where else in the codex can you get 5 S5 hits for only 50 points?

Not much when you put it that way. A chimera...maybe. Still, it's an unfair comparison. For those 50pts I could bring two medusae instead of two baslilisks. I could have 3 plasma vet squads rather than 3 melta vets. Are 5 str:5 hits that important in the context of a 1500-1850pt list? Whereas an extra 12" range on 3 squads, or 2 ap2 blasts compared to ap3 is a big deal.

I would normally agree, but in this case, we're talking about an AV14 chassis, which makes this less of a deal.

Plus, look at it holistically. You're spending 250 points, yes, but for something that has 3HP of AV14 and puts down 20 S5/6 hits per turn. You get what you pay for, even if it does make you a bigger target.

250pts is a lot to spend on something like that. It's more vulnerable than a land raider, but considerably more offensive. I don't think it's difficult to get into the rear arc of a LR, and when the effective range is 24" it's going to be quite easy for opponents to get melta, or even plasma in a position to take advantage of AV:11. I can see the desire to take it, I'm just not keen on loading up points on an immobile target. Or an over-costed mobile target.

I've had good luck with executioners destroying hordes, but I'm pretty sure the math should prove the opposite. People always talk about max 2" spread, but in a game, rarely will a horde player be able to get a perfect 2" spread on every model. And I'm saying that as a horde player. Sometimes you just have to bunch up to get through an area. Which is why ony 4 hits from a russ against a horde player sounds ridiculous. You really think a green tide player can spread out over a 100 models so that you can only hit a max of 4?

So yeah, executioners, punishers, LRBT's, and Demolishers could all pull anti horde duty fairly well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, you only need one spot bunched up to do a lot of damage. I've gutted hordes by finding a single spot where my small blast hit 5 guys, got a couple of direct hits and a few scatters and picks up 2 to 3 apiece, and before you know it, you've got roughly 20 plasma wounds, all wounding on 2's.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Indeed, I personally feel 50pts is too much for a BS upgrade.

Not true at all. Going from BS 3 to BS 4 adds 33% more firepower, and on a tank that costs at least 200 points you're only paying 25% more points for that 33% more firepower. Even ignoring the other bonuses Pask's BS 4 alone makes him a good upgrade on a LR Punisher.

The stock Russ is good because of its usefulness against horde and MCs. The Punisher...yeah it makes quite a mess out of large squads, I have seen it do work against MEQs as well. The Eradicator IMO is overlooked far too often, taking that pesky cover-save away from horde armies has saved my life on a few occasions. A mix of the aforementioned Russes could do you good IMO, gives you versatility on the battlefield instead of limiting you to one train of thought.

Side note, with the stock russ don't bother with the sponsons...With lumbering behemoth being FAQd out of the game, they are pretty useless IMO, just save yourself the points for other things like plasma guns and flamers.

 Xadakk wrote:
The stock Russ is good because of its usefulness against horde and MCs. The Punisher...yeah it makes quite a mess out of large squads, I have seen it do work against MEQs as well. The Eradicator IMO is overlooked far too often, taking that pesky cover-save away from horde armies has saved my life on a few occasions. A mix of the aforementioned Russes could do you good IMO, gives you versatility on the battlefield instead of limiting you to one train of thought.

Side note, with the stock russ don't bother with the sponsons...With lumbering behemoth being FAQd out of the game, they are pretty useless IMO, just save yourself the points for other things like plasma guns and flamers.

Your first point is wrong on both levels.

The vanilla russ is worse at dealing with MCs than most other variants, as the most it can peel off is a single wound, while the Punisher, Exterminator, and Executioner are all better due to volume of fire and being able to peel off multiple wounds.

For horde duty, a properly spaced out horde will only allow for 4, maybe 5 models to be hit at the absolutely maximum. The Punisher and Exterminator come out on top again due to volume of fire and being able to effectively use sponsons to accentuate their main gun.

As an old vanilla russ fan from 5th, its a sad day, but the numbers speak for themselves.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Xadakk wrote:
The stock Russ is good because of its usefulness against horde and MCs. The Punisher...yeah it makes quite a mess out of large squads, I have seen it do work against MEQs as well. The Eradicator IMO is overlooked far too often, taking that pesky cover-save away from horde armies has saved my life on a few occasions. A mix of the aforementioned Russes could do you good IMO, gives you versatility on the battlefield instead of limiting you to one train of thought.

Side note, with the stock russ don't bother with the sponsons...With lumbering behemoth being FAQd out of the game, they are pretty useless IMO, just save yourself the points for other things like plasma guns and flamers.

Your first point is wrong on both levels.

The vanilla russ is worse at dealing with MCs than most other variants, as the most it can peel off is a single wound, while the Punisher, Exterminator, and Executioner are all better due to volume of fire and being able to peel off multiple wounds.

For horde duty, a properly spaced out horde will only allow for 4, maybe 5 models to be hit at the absolutely maximum. The Punisher and Exterminator come out on top again due to volume of fire and being able to effectively use sponsons to accentuate their main gun.

As an old vanilla russ fan from 5th, its a sad day, but the numbers speak for themselves.

I see where you come from. I feel like the range is where you get hit. Having to get within 24 inches makes me feel like you get one or two turns of shooting in before it smashes you apart. Having range IMO is something in my experience that has served me quite well. Now, i have little experience with the Punisher aside from sticking Pask in and throwing it towards any transports i can find. We don't have a single 'Nid player at my local store.

Ill admit i completely forgot about the Exterminator.

Ever since Lumbering Behemoth disappeared i feel like the stock LRBT is harder to use...but then again that may just be me.

Honestly, I've never played a game where the horde player spends the extensive amount of time needed to space things out perfectly. In fact, most of them tend to bunch up to get cover saves, rather than spread out in the open; it's faster, and seems to keep roughly the same number of models alive from templates, and gives them saves against direct fire weapons.

But then that might just be my experience; the spacing only becomes key in the later turns when there's fewer forces on the field, or if they're running a small, elite force, like draigowing.

The pask punisher. That thing has earned it's heafty points back in gauntson more than one occasion.

As for the short range, I usually stick it in my troops as a area-denial tank to keep hordy stuff from overrunning my gunline. It frees up the heavy weapons teams to fire larger targets, and gives an extra turn or two to keep shooting before the green tide or gaunt swarm crashes into your gunline. Think of the punisher as more of an escort for your troopers, and less of a full-blown assault tank like a demolisher.

Any large blast doesn't do bad if you've got a nice firing lane, but it's a perk, and not something to rely on.

Of course, if you don't opt to take a punisher, you could try to free up the points for two eradicators with heavy bolter sponsons. The nova cannon will help clear out infantry that gets a cover save while those bolters dakka away, but I find that they don't chew through the enemy fast enough to make a difference.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
Honestly, I've never played a game where the horde player spends the extensive amount of time needed to space things out perfectly.

This is a pretty dangerous assumption to make when you're considering weaponry options.

"Oh, well Tank X would be good if my opponent plays poorly."

See what I mean?

 TheCaptain wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
Honestly, I've never played a game where the horde player spends the extensive amount of time needed to space things out perfectly.

This is a pretty dangerous assumption to make when you're considering weaponry options.

"Oh, well Tank X would be good if my opponent plays poorly."

See what I mean?

On the flip side, the horde player only needs to screw up his spacing in one spot, and I can make him pay dearly for it.

Hence why I'm confused how people are only getting 4 to 5 models in a large blast. You mean to tell me with a 100+ infantry on the table (and to be honest, anything less is not a horde) you couldn't find a SINGLE spot where the opponent bunched up? Especially in a tourney scenario, with terrain and enemy models throwing a wrench in that horde player's plans. You just don't have the time to properly space every model down to the individual level. Granted, you can get pretty close eyeballing it, but if you have enough terrain, bunching up will happen. You also have to count instances like tankshocking, deepstriking, and botched regrouping rolls after an assault, where you don't have a choice in the matter.

Of course now I'm just playing devil's advocate more than anything. I'm just saying any horde player who seriously believes he can have 150+ infantry models on the table and still space them perfectly without killing his time limit or screwing himself on terrain is either insane or full of it. You either spend the time to perfectly space your models (and make it to round 3 tops) or you say "screw it, I'll eyeball it" (and get punished by your friendly neighborhood IG player as a result)

But to be fair, if I have to choose between two similar weapons, and the only difference is one is consistent and the other is a gamble, I know I'll pick the consistent choice every time (unless the risky unit's payoff is just insanely worth it)

So yeah, just trying to show the reasoning behind people who use blast template weapons for anti horde. I know they've never let me down.

 TheCaptain wrote:
"Oh, well Tank X would be good if my opponent plays poorly."

Except it's not necessarily poor play. If you're playing in a tournament with a time limit then you don't have time to perfectly measure every single model and make sure it's exactly 1.9999" away from any other model, you have to make some sacrifices to play fast enough to finish the game. Failing to space everything out properly might just be the price you have to pay for getting to the end of the game before time runs out.

And of course there's the other factors that make perfect spacing less than inevitable. If you have transports your disembarked passengers aren't going to be perfectly spaced out when I wreck them. If I have lots of non-blast weapons spreading out at maximum coherency means giving up cover saves and potentially costs you more casualties than bunching up under blast templates. If there's lots of terrain on the table having the huge footprint of a maximum-coherency unit means you're constantly slowing down with difficult terrain rolls. Etc.

So it's not really fair to assume that every single good player will always space every model out at maximum coherency.

 Peregrine wrote:


So it's not really fair to assume that every single good player will always space every model out at maximum coherency.

Not always, no.

But a good player will space their models when the situation calls for it; especially if they're expecting said unit to get hit by a blast next turn.

 TheCaptain wrote:
But a good player will space their models when the situation calls for it; especially if they're expecting said unit to get hit by a blast next turn.

But, again, you don't always have that choice. If you're facing severe time constraints you can't do it, you just have to take the damage and hope you roll well on your cover saves. You might want to do it, you might know perfectly well that it's the right thing to do, but the clock doesn't magically run slower just because you brought a horde army.

And of course there's the non-blast factor. If you're facing both a LR Punisher and LRBT it's no longer an obvious case of "a good player will always spread out". The threat of the non-blast weapons can often force you to bunch up behind cover or lose half your unit with no save, and it isn't realistic to assume that even a good player can perfectly (and quickly) do the math and always make the exact ideal decision on spacing vs. cover. So even though you might be a good player and know all about the importance of spacing you're still going to have to accept taking more than the bare minimum hits from blast weapons.

In short: you can't just look at one unit in isolation and how you'd react to that unit, you have to consider the entire context of the game. And when you do you find that even good players don't always have their models at maximum coherency.

As a newcomer to Guard, this thread interests me a great deal.

I must say though that the best all round tank I've used is the Executioner. While very expensive it has earned it's points back in 8/10 test games I've used it in so far against Orks and a Cultist heavy CSM list. The two games it failed on is where it killed itself.

The second tank I've found useful is the Pask Exterminator. While the tank is good for throwing high volumes of dice, it's a great all rounder for facing aircraft and medium tanks.

I've not tried the Punisher yet, but with the my two Ex-Tanks doing so well, I'm loath to part with one of them.

The two tanks I don't like are the standard Russ and the Demolisher. The snap firing heavy bolters hinder more than help. Against MEQ these two tanks are ok, but again, I prefer the Executioner - more templates.

Puscifer wrote:
As a newcomer to Guard, this thread interests me a great deal.

I must say though that the best all round tank I've used is the Executioner. While very expensive it has earned it's points back in 8/10 test games I've used it in so far against Orks and a Cultist heavy CSM list. The two games it failed on is where it killed itself.

The second tank I've found useful is the Pask Exterminator. While the tank is good for throwing high volumes of dice, it's a great all rounder for facing aircraft and medium tanks.

I've not tried the Punisher yet, but with the my two Ex-Tanks doing so well, I'm loath to part with one of them.

The two tanks I don't like are the standard Russ and the Demolisher. The snap firing heavy bolters hinder more than help. Against MEQ these two tanks are ok, but again, I prefer the Executioner - more templates.

Remember, the main turret on the Executioner doesn't have gets hot! only the sponsons. If you're getting low on HP's, stop firing the sponsons, unless absolutely necessary. You should only be rolling two "gets hot!" rolls every time you fire, not 5.

If I remember correctly, an Executioner with plasma sponsons should only be losing a hullpoint once every 4 turns. Having one blow itself up should be incredibly rare, as I wouldn't push the tank to blow up unless it was a serious emergency, as in "I'm going to lose the game if I don't just absolutely destroy this target with this Executioner salvo." I've never lost one to meltdowns, it's either lived to the end because it nearly tabled my opponent, or got blown up turn 1 because the guy saw what it did to the last player.