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this morning I had an idea with regards to how to reform immigration, and it came from the Romans. what if anyone who could meet certain requirements for becoming a naturalized citizen could join the military and after a tour of duty and an honorable discharge would be put in a kind of "express lane" to becoming a US citizen? even a normally illegal immigrant could take this path if they meet the requirements. the problem with the current system is that building a fence will not help. it is an issue of supply and demand, we are decreasing the supply of coming to the USA but we are not decreasing demand. what we must do is increase the supply, but not in a way that is unpalatable to the average joe on the street ("amnesty" and other such methods) to meet the demand. this is just a wild and wacky idea I just had that I thought I would share because I want to know what people think of it.

Or we could do what we used to do. Let everyone in.

 yeri wrote:
this morning I had an idea with regards to how to reform immigration, and it came from the Romans. what if anyone who could meet certain requirements for becoming a naturalized citizen could join the military and after a tour of duty and an honorable discharge would be put in a kind of "express lane" to becoming a US citizen? even a normally illegal immigrant could take this path if they meet the requirements. the problem with the current system is that building a fence will not help. it is an issue of supply and demand, we are decreasing the supply of coming to the USA but we are not decreasing demand. what we must do is increase the supply, but not in a way that is unpalatable to the average joe on the street ("amnesty" and other such methods) to meet the demand. this is just a wild and wacky idea I just had that I thought I would share because I want to know what people think of it.

Starship troopers did it. They also added the same requirement to procreate.

Because if you now want to include going on a tour of duty to American warzones to the year it took me to get my visa to get here, then Mrs S would have just come over to the UK, to avoid becoming an early widow. So you'd end up with a brain drain of the very immigrants you actually want, qualified and specialist immigrants.

Because you need immigrants to come to the country because it's current population is in decline.

And this would encourage illegal immigration, not decrease it.

Don't they do this now?

Yes, they do do this now.

I like our current plan of making the US a crappier country than Mexico so they don't want to come over here. I'll be Detroit doesn't have any illegals in it at all!

 Ratbarf wrote:
Yes, they do do this now.

They don't.

You have to be a citizen or a legal permanent resident (Green card holder).

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/a/enlcitizen.htm

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Ratbarf wrote:
Yes, they do do this now.

They don't.

You have to be a citizen or a legal permanent resident (Green card holder).

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/a/enlcitizen.htm

I'm pretty sure that's not right...

You'd probably have to do "something" with the immigration office. I'm sure the recruiters would "help" an illegal immigrant if the recruiters want them...

It decreases the 5 year wait to become a Citizen to two years or so.

I'm sorry I think I didn't phrase that first post the right way. what I meant was that this would be an alliterative system for someone who couldn't get in the current legal way, not a completely new system. the current system would also still be in effect, this is just a system for those who wouldn't otherwise be able to come to the USA.

 yeri wrote:
I'm sorry I think I didn't phrase that first post the right way. what I meant was that this would be an alliterative system for someone who couldn't get in the current legal way, not a completely new system. the current system would also still be in effect, this is just a system for those who wouldn't otherwise be able to come to the USA.

So, they don't meet current standards for entry to the US, but we want to fill our military with them? Sounds like one of the worst ideas I've heard lately.

Add in, our military is shrinking. They are involuntarily separating folks now. Re-enlisting is not a given. Recruiting is being slowed down because we don't need the quantities. Why should the US tax payers fund a larger military to allow folks who can't currently become legal residents to enter our country? If it is too expensive to keep it at current levels, how does expanding it with substandard recruits make any sense? How much more is it going to cost to even get these folks up to appropriate levels of physical conditioning and educatio (to include English language skills) to get them through basic training?

Sorry, there is just so much VERY wrong with your proposal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Ratbarf wrote:
Yes, they do do this now.

They don't.

You have to be a citizen or a legal permanent resident (Green card holder).

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/a/enlcitizen.htm

I'm pretty sure that's not right...

You'd probably have to do "something" with the immigration office. I'm sure the recruiters would "help" an illegal immigrant if the recruiters want them...

Wrong. You MUST be a legal resident or citizen to enlist. Recruiters have no trouble making quota, why risk jail time?

yea I guess you're probably right, I just had an idea and wanted to know what people thought of it. and the answer has been unanimously bad. so I'd like to say now MOD PLEASE LOCK THREAD. no use beating a dead horse.

What about those who are too old to sign up for the military? Legal immigrants are required to register for select service upon entering the United States provided that they are not excluded by age.

Or how about the United States does what every other country does and actually enforces its immigration laws. Not just on those who go through the process the legal way and subject themselves to every scrutiny required, but those who enter the country unlawfully or outstay their visas.

Illegal immigrants cost the state of California billions of dollars, now imagine this repeated on a nationwide scale;

Among the key finding of the report are that the state's already struggling K-12 education system spends approximately $7.7 billion a year to school the children of illegal aliens who now constitute 15 percent of the student body. Another $1.4 billion of the taxpayers' money goes toward providing health care to illegal aliens and their families, the same amount that is spent incarcerating illegal aliens criminals. . . .
The Costs of Illegal Immigration to Californians focuses on three specific program areas because those were the costs examined by researchers from the Urban Institute in 1994. Looking at the costs of education, health care and incarceration for illegal aliens in 1994, the Urban Institute estimated that California was subsidizing illegal immigrants to the tune of about $1.1 billion. . .
"Predictably, the costs of illegal immigration have grown geometrically, while the state has spiraled into a fiscal crisis that has brought it near bankruptcy."

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm

According to the Legislative Analyst's office, data from 2008-2009 suggest that California spends $4.2 billion on services for illegal immigrants each year.

http://www.goldenstateliberty.com/2011/04/counting-cost-of-illegal-immigration.html

Illegal immigration costs U.S. taxpayers about $113 billion a year at the federal, state and local level. The bulk of the costs — some $84 billion — are absorbed by state and local governments.
The annual outlay that illegal aliens cost U.S. taxpayers is an average amount per native-headed household of $1,117. . . At the federal level, about one-third of outlays are matched by tax collections from illegal aliens. At the state and local level, an average of less than 5 percent of the public costs associated with illegal immigration is recouped through taxes collected from illegal aliens.

http://www.fairus.org/publications/the-fiscal-burden-of-illegal-immigration-on-u-s-taxpayers

I take issue with the current discussions taking place concerning amnesty for illegal immigrants. It shows contempt for the law of the land that those who felt that the law should not apply to them are rewarded for running down the clock. It also files in the face of immigration law itself. When you wish to enter the United States you cannot have committed a crime against moral turpitude, which is "conduct that is considered contrary to community standards of justice, honesty or good morals.". Ignoring immigration law to enter the United States, avoiding taxes, using false Social Security documents and/or claiming public assistance etc. all fall under this, yet illegal immigrants would be forgiven for this by paying a fine while those who have yet to set foot on US soil could be prohibited for life from entering.

I am not arguing that immigration should not happen. I am an immigrant, I'm still going through the immigration process. What I am opposed to are those who flout immigration laws to enter the US, then plead for special treatment above those who entered the country legally after filling out all the forms, the background checks, the medical, the interview, etc.

 DemetriDominov wrote:
Or we could do what we used to do. Let everyone in.

We haven't done that since the 1800s.

Besides, look how well the "Open door" policy worked for the Iroquois.

PredaKhaine wrote:

 yeri wrote:
this morning I had an idea with regards to how to reform immigration, and it came from the Romans. what if anyone who could meet certain requirements for becoming a naturalized citizen could join the military and after a tour of duty and an honorable discharge would be put in a kind of "express lane" to becoming a US citizen? even a normally illegal immigrant could take this path if they meet the requirements. the problem with the current system is that building a fence will not help. it is an issue of supply and demand, we are decreasing the supply of coming to the USA but we are not decreasing demand. what we must do is increase the supply, but not in a way that is unpalatable to the average joe on the street ("amnesty" and other such methods) to meet the demand. this is just a wild and wacky idea I just had that I thought I would share because I want to know what people think of it.

Starship troopers did it. They also added the same requirement to procreate.

You should probably read the book again. There was no such requirement to procreate in the text, either explicitly or implied.

 Frazzled wrote:

 DemetriDominov wrote:
Or we could do what we used to do. Let everyone in.

We haven't done that since the 1800s.

And neither does any other country that has a functioning government capable of enforcing immigration.

 Hordini wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:

 yeri wrote:
this morning I had an idea with regards to how to reform immigration, and it came from the Romans. what if anyone who could meet certain requirements for becoming a naturalized citizen could join the military and after a tour of duty and an honorable discharge would be put in a kind of "express lane" to becoming a US citizen? even a normally illegal immigrant could take this path if they meet the requirements. the problem with the current system is that building a fence will not help. it is an issue of supply and demand, we are decreasing the supply of coming to the USA but we are not decreasing demand. what we must do is increase the supply, but not in a way that is unpalatable to the average joe on the street ("amnesty" and other such methods) to meet the demand. this is just a wild and wacky idea I just had that I thought I would share because I want to know what people think of it.

Starship troopers did it. They also added the same requirement to procreate.

You should probably read the book again. There was no such requirement to procreate in the text, either explicitly or implied.

Or you could watch the film again...They made a point of having a mixed shower scene where they discussed why they were in the army - one lady said 'because I wanna have babies'.
TBH, I'm impressed I remembered the dialogue.

As regards the budget issue, let's remember that children born in the USA are legal US citizens, so money spent on their education is not being spent on illegal immigrants.

If you dislike that you need to amend the constitution to deny citizenship to people born in the USA.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
As regards the budget issue, let's remember that children born in the USA are legal US citizens, so money spent on their education is not being spent on illegal immigrants.

If you dislike that you need to amend the constitution to deny citizenship to people born in the USA.

This reminds me of a song. Gather around the campfire childrens and lets all sing it together.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
As regards the budget issue, let's remember that children born in the USA are legal US citizens, so money spent on their education is not being spent on illegal immigrants.

If you dislike that you need to amend the constitution to deny citizenship to people born in the USA.

I am aware of that thank you, I didn't see anything in the methodology of the links that indicated that they counted children born in the United States to illegal immigrants as part of their studies.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
As regards the budget issue, let's remember that children born in the USA are legal US citizens, so money spent on their education is not being spent on illegal immigrants.

If you dislike that you need to amend the constitution to deny citizenship to people born in the USA.

Yeah, but that is also a loophole that illegals are using to try and stay in the US.

It creates a bad situation all around and it sucks. The parents did something very wrong, but to punish them would harm their children who are citizens.


We need to enforce the fraking laws of our country, you don't enter legally, you can't benifit from the laws protection. You want our prosperity, obey the laws.

I say that the children of people that entered the country Illegally not be allowed citizenship, or the children may be allowed to keep their citizenship but they must be placed up for adoption or into the care of a guardian that is a legal citizen and the parents get sent back. We need to remove the incentive to come here and have kids that become citizens. I like the second option better.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
As regards the budget issue, let's remember that children born in the USA are legal US citizens, so money spent on their education is not being spent on illegal immigrants.

If you dislike that you need to amend the constitution to deny citizenship to people born in the USA.

Yeah, but that is also a loophole that illegals are using to try and stay in the US.

It creates a bad situation all around and it sucks. The parents did something very wrong, but to punish them would harm their children who are citizens.


We need to enforce the fraking laws of our country, you don't enter legally, you can't benifit from the laws protection. You want our prosperity, obey the laws.

I say that the children of people that entered the country Illegally not be allowed citizenship, or the children may be allowed to keep their citizenship but they must be placed up for adoption or into the care of a guardian that is a legal citizen and the parents get sent back. We need to remove the incentive to come here and have kids that become citizens. I like the second option better.

meh...

I don't understand why it needs to be so difficult.

Just sign the damned guestbook when entering/leaving and keep it that simple. (that is, make getting green card easy to get/maintain).

I said that, but we can't just send parents back and leave their kids stuck here. Although, that would provide pretty strong motivation for the parents NOT to do this to their kids as yet unborn.

But yes, sign the damned guest book. if the line's too long for you thats just too bad.

PredaKhaine wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:

 yeri wrote:
this morning I had an idea with regards to how to reform immigration, and it came from the Romans. what if anyone who could meet certain requirements for becoming a naturalized citizen could join the military and after a tour of duty and an honorable discharge would be put in a kind of "express lane" to becoming a US citizen? even a normally illegal immigrant could take this path if they meet the requirements. the problem with the current system is that building a fence will not help. it is an issue of supply and demand, we are decreasing the supply of coming to the USA but we are not decreasing demand. what we must do is increase the supply, but not in a way that is unpalatable to the average joe on the street ("amnesty" and other such methods) to meet the demand. this is just a wild and wacky idea I just had that I thought I would share because I want to know what people think of it.

Starship troopers did it. They also added the same requirement to procreate.

You should probably read the book again. There was no such requirement to procreate in the text, either explicitly or implied.

Or you could watch the film again...They made a point of having a mixed shower scene where they discussed why they were in the army - one lady said 'because I wanna have babies'.
TBH, I'm impressed I remembered the dialogue.

Allow me to rephrase then: You should probably read the book.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I said that, but we can't just send parents back and leave their kids stuck here. Although, that would provide pretty strong motivation for the parents NOT to do this to their kids as yet unborn.

But yes, sign the damned guest book. if the line's too long for you thats just too bad.

No.. I really mean this.

If you want to live here, sign the guest/book and getting a Green card really should be as easy as going to the DMV.

That way, we know who's here.

Citizenship is really a different ball of wax, but if we can't keep people out (for whatever reason), then make it easy and encourage immigrants to sign that guest book.

 Grey Templar wrote:



We need to enforce the fraking laws of our country, you don't enter legally, you can't benifit from the laws protection. You want our prosperity, obey the laws.

That's not really the way it works though. Even criminals are protected under the law.

Its the principle at the very least.

And I do feel that some things should be taken away from convicted felons of certain crimes. Some/most Constitutional Rights for one.

We shouldn't be cruel to criminals, but they should no longer enjoy any privileges associated with being a citizen if they are found guilty of violating the laws. Or at the very least have them restricted severly.


You lose the right to vote, the right to bear arms, eligibility for public office, any sort of government aid, etc... Until you can prove you have reformed or something.

 Hordini wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:

 yeri wrote:
this morning I had an idea with regards to how to reform immigration, and it came from the Romans. what if anyone who could meet certain requirements for becoming a naturalized citizen could join the military and after a tour of duty and an honorable discharge would be put in a kind of "express lane" to becoming a US citizen? even a normally illegal immigrant could take this path if they meet the requirements. the problem with the current system is that building a fence will not help. it is an issue of supply and demand, we are decreasing the supply of coming to the USA but we are not decreasing demand. what we must do is increase the supply, but not in a way that is unpalatable to the average joe on the street ("amnesty" and other such methods) to meet the demand. this is just a wild and wacky idea I just had that I thought I would share because I want to know what people think of it.

Starship troopers did it. They also added the same requirement to procreate.

You should probably read the book again. There was no such requirement to procreate in the text, either explicitly or implied.

Or you could watch the film again...They made a point of having a mixed shower scene where they discussed why they were in the army - one lady said 'because I wanna have babies'.
TBH, I'm impressed I remembered the dialogue.

Allow me to rephrase then: You should probably read the book.

Does the book have an extremely thin plot, forced along by some insanely random coincidences and completely gratuitous mixed shower scenes?

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
I like our current plan of making the US a crappier country than Mexico so they don't want to come over here. I'll be Detroit doesn't have any illegals in it at all!

The drug users here are helping make Mexico a crappier country by empowering the cartels with drug money and by doing so becoming accomplices to the tens of thousands of murders a year down there.