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Alright I got a peak at the new book and daemons have a new chart thingy to roll on (yea I skipped out on reading the news/rumor forum so this could have already been discussed)


You technically dont roll on it since you use whatever 2D6 roll you get from the winds of magic



And oh boy is it kind of crazy.

At worst, all daemons will have to take a daemonic instability test. And then it gradually "gets better": daemon characters take a wound, losing a bit of the ward save for all units, the 4 chaos gods will now personally ATTACK their hated god on their own roll effect with units being affected on a 6. After all those shenanigans then daemons increase their ward save, non daemon wizards can get daemonically possessed, and a whole new unit of lesser daemons is spawned


Does this put a spanner in daemon strategies? Knowing that in one roll you could screw some of your units over? (or if you're running a Mono god, your entire army) Will this be the daemons "greenskin animosity"? Then again people might not like it if on the first turn their Level 4 wizard gets turned into a herald.......

I wish I had such a table. Animosity is terrible for Goblin armies.

I am picking up a nurgle army with this new book as it looks fun.

Emphasis on the 'fun'. Entertaining yes, not competitive. There is a HUGE amount of randomness added.
Between the winds thing, rolling your gifts and the new thing they added to break tests there is the possibility of one bad roll ending the game for you. It could win you the game as well but a competitive army should be reliable before anything else.

I think I will enjoy playing this book but my VCs are defiantly staying my tourney army because yes, I think the new book is too chaotic.

 jonolikespie wrote:
I am picking up a nurgle army with this new book as it looks fun.

Emphasis on the 'fun'. Entertaining yes, not competitive. There is a HUGE amount of randomness added.
Between the winds thing, rolling your gifts and the new thing they added to break tests there is the possibility of one bad roll ending the game for you. It could win you the game as well but a competitive army should be reliable before anything else.

I think I will enjoy playing this book but my VCs are defiantly staying my tourney army because yes, I think the new book is too chaotic.

Yea, the fact that all the chaos gifts are all random makes chaos daemons really chaotic (almost a complete opposite of their 7th edition book)


Though thank the chaos gods they have a "0" roll for each gift table (allowing you to choose some magic items, hmm an eternal blade on a GUO sounds fun)


I do feel sorry though for those who want to roll with chaos competitively. They might have to shelve them for Warriors of Chaos or cross their fingers and hope the chaos gods are not fickle with them

You can make some real good Squigs out of Horrors of Tzeentch

 Sigvatr wrote:
You can make some real good Squigs out of Horrors of Tzeentch

Daemon players running to Orcs and Goblins? The dark gods truly are fickle!

 Sigvatr wrote:
You can make some real good Squigs out of Horrors of Tzeentch

Especially with the Blue Horrors that come with the Chariot kit. They're so tiny!

It's only too chaotic for the tournament, competitive players.

Stoupe wrote:
It's only too chaotic for the tournament, competitive players.

You say that now!

Wait to see how much butthurt you'll feel after getting thumped silly by;
- Lv4 LoC w/Wand of Whimsy
- HoN BSB w/Lesser Locus of Virulence
- 2-3x Plaguebearer hordes
- 2x Skullcannons

Oh Daemons of Chaos, cheese is truely still thy name!


I honestly am expecting most tournies to ban the Wand and put a 0-1 limit on Skullcannons... (Hell, the Wand has the potential to easily be far, far worse than the old Dark Insanity Bloodthirsters of the previous book.)

It's simply a case of insteasd of most every unit being an outright beatstick, this time round, units are either crap or else still absolutely filthy beatsticks of DOOOOOOOOOM!

Yea I am happy to write them off as too unpredictable for me to play competitively but there is some really fun combinations for mono god lists, like nurgle.

With Epidermis, a herals and a wizard you can get plaugebearers that are S5/T5 and have poisoned attacks the wound on a 5 and do the usual wound on a 6 as well as an additional S4 wound.

Or you can give them regen then up their regen to 3+.

There are undoubtedly some good combos and I am sure people will bring them to tourneys but they might get frustrated when snake eyes at the wrong time turns a win into a nasty loss.

I just got it. I had to buy the store copy cuz they were all out!

I came in knowing some stuff would change and was worried just how "chaotic" it would be from what I heard. But it's not Animosity. It makes it clear it's very warp-like. During instability you can literally take zero wounds even if you just took 234982389 in close combat. You can also have the entire unit sucked out of the game. Winds of magic is the same. Most times it's some kind of hit taking place. On an 11 you can point to an enemy caster anywhere on the board, make them take a LD test or DIE with no saves. Not only that, they create a Herald in their place. On a 12 you summon 2D6+3 core troops of your choice...

In fact, there's a lot of that. The magic is all WoC. Exactly the same except for signature abilities. Signatures are all the same. If you do dmg, you roll a D6 per wound and add a new core or special if you succeed in the roll. These troops aren't worth victory points! They just poof out of thin air. This means that spell casting Horrors could conceivably keep growing.

The biggest concern is that you roll randomly for gifts. HOWEVER, you can always choose a weapon from the BRB (kind of like choosing a signature spell if you don't like result). Some stuff is like impact hits D3 (25pts). +2A (50pts). +1dice on every dispel attempt (75pts). There's 4 really wacky items at the 75pt lvl. +D3 WS/S/I/A every round weapon... One that slowly starts creating the Inevetible City wall by wall on the map. Etc.

Bloodletters, slight nerf. 6+ armor.

They have a cannon.

Beasts cost 60 and can challenge

Bloodcrushers are -5pts, +1W and a better save. Pretty solid in the MC universe considering they have a ward.

Core are all different. Heralds can buy one of 3 upgrades. They combine basically the old ones and the old standards. So now they can all have a magic standard. Some weird ones. Horrors can swap their Str for a random D6. Bloodletters get Frenzy. Daemonettes (which seem really solid) pass all dangerous terrain tests, look out sir tests, and...characteristic tests (suck it, uber spells!). Again, you can only buy one upgrade.

Epidemius and Masque are better. A plague army with him can get really sick. But waaaay more expensive. So are all the other named heroes.

Lords. Ah, Lords. They are 50-75 cheaper.

Khairos is 60pts cheaper. 4+ ward. Lost daemonic robes, +2 to cast. But he can do all the old stuff.


I foresee a lot of FAQs because it's some really strange stuff.

I didnt really think Daemons could become anymore broken. I was really hoping they would become balanced like Warriors of Chaos, but that was a false hope.

Just having skimmed through the book, it is clear that little has changed. The Reign of Chaos table is quite ridiculous. Taking a Great Unclean one with the D6 on it, can make it all the better also getting a 6 gets essentially a second roll free(what would be 25pts) then take Bloodletters for core, 6+ is in noo way a nerf of any kind. Still having killing blow magic attacks at weapons skill 5.

Im also not sure why the Drones were even added, as it is clear the better choice is the Skull Cannon. A movement 7, 4 wound Chariot Cannon, with a S10 D6 wounds flaming attack weapon, that can move AND shoot. Why take anything else? Also the Bloodcrushers(which are 10 points less than Skullcrushers?) are Special, so it eliminates the need for the Drones.

Apparently you did just skim the book. The reason for multiple MC is because:

Heroes can't join units of different gods. And different gods' units don't get Banner reroll and they can't use the general's LD.

Great Unclean Ones don't have a D6. Balesword is D3. GUO also lost FOUR wounds. Though they got better combat stats for some reason.

If you took a GUO and Bloodletters as Core you would probably lose right there. You'd be taking instability tests on LD7 with no reroll.

The 6+ armor on Bloodletters is a buff... They are more expensive and lost strength.

The cannon is like an Ironblaster or Hellcannon.

I think the army is viable. I think it will turn people off because it has so many ways to randomly explode in your face, but all the gods are very strong. Maybe Tz feels a bit the weakest because there's no Loremastery and because they just don't have that many units, and the ones they do, 2 of them and their whole spell lore can give Regen to the enemy.

Getting Epedimius and a Nurgle Soulgrinder(s) with attachments to get your bonuses will be in play. But he gives the bonuses to every Nurgle.

Daemon Princes from WoC are still cheaper than DoC... And they get vastly more points to customize. But the gifts from DoC have the potential to be much better. But a WoC DP doesn't take instability...

I can't wait to see a Wand of Whimsy LoC go on the rampage...
A Lv4 wizard that after a single game turn will likely be at +2/3 stregnth & attacks? By the time he's hitting combat he could easily be a 9 or 10 attack w/S9 or S10!

I dread to think just how silly this combo will get.

Experiment 626 wrote:
I can't wait to see a Wand of Whimsy LoC go on the rampage...
A Lv4 wizard that after a single game turn will likely be at +2/3 stregnth & attacks? By the time he's hitting combat he could easily be a 9 or 10 attack w/S9 or S10!

I dread to think just how silly this combo will get.

Did it last night. Playing ogres, stole pann's on turn one, and gatewayed one cannon, other blew it's self up and the LOC did awesome.

 Acardia wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
I can't wait to see a Wand of Whimsy LoC go on the rampage...
A Lv4 wizard that after a single game turn will likely be at +2/3 stregnth & attacks? By the time he's hitting combat he could easily be a 9 or 10 attack w/S9 or S10!

I dread to think just how silly this combo will get.

Did it last night. Playing ogres, stole pann's on turn one, and gatewayed one cannon, other blew it's self up and the LOC did awesome.

Just out of curiosity, how many additional charges did the Wand pick-up by the end of the game?

Since this is moving to a more general "lets talk about daemons", I changed the title

Yea Whimsy Wand does seem a no brainer on a LoC. He is surprisingly a combat monster for a tzeentch model (then again he is a greater daemon)

Even 2 charges on it means you have a S8 LoC running around


Skull cannons, a no brainer to me but not too overpowered imo. Its the ogre thundercannon all over again. A cannon is a cannon!


I am a bit curious to know though what to do with Nurgle Heralds on Palaquins/Epidemius since you cant hide them. Do you still stick them in a unit and hope they can pass their ward saves when cannons start flying?

The Epidemius problem is one I am currently trying to work out myself. I like the idea of just tossing him in the unit of plaugebeares and hoping my opponent doesn't have cannons but he still wont get a look out sir against spells.

I'm pretty sure he can't get the save with beasts of nurgle but the giant flies will get him one, only putting him with them completely defeats the purpose of them.

 jonolikespie wrote:
The Epidemius problem is one I am currently trying to work out myself. I like the idea of just tossing him in the unit of plaugebeares and hoping my opponent doesn't have cannons but he still wont get a look out sir against spells.

I'm pretty sure he can't get the save with beasts of nurgle but the giant flies will get him one, only putting him with them completely defeats the purpose of them.

Yea, the giant flies have a non flying movement of.....1

Sigh monstrous cavalry is so hard to hide without (good) monstrous cavalry to hide them in

Remember, every single non Hero/Lord unit DoC has is LD 7 (furies are 2...) and if you don't have a general or BSB of that same god, they don't get inspiring presence or reroll.

If you have a varied army, you better make sure those units never have to take an instability test. Even then they will randomly have to do it because of winds of magic.

Wand of Whimsy isn't all that. The bearer has to cast or dispel. If you're sticking him in combat he has limited choices. And then it's on a 5+. The Eternal Blade is much more reliable, though it's a 75pt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OH, forgot to mention this last night. There is a "hint" that Skaven rat god is none other than a major Daemon of Nurgle. Take a look at the map of the Realm of Chaos. That's how I interpreted it. Also they show the Eye of Terror...

DukeRustfield wrote:
Remember, every single non Hero/Lord unit DoC has is LD 7 (furies are 2...) and if you don't have a general or BSB of that same god, they don't get inspiring presence or reroll.

If you have a varied army, you better make sure those units never have to take an instability test. Even then they will randomly have to do it because of winds of magic.

Wand of Whimsy isn't all that. The bearer has to cast or dispel. If you're sticking him in combat he has limited choices. And then it's on a 5+. The Eternal Blade is much more reliable, though it's a 75pt.

The Wand is stupid.
Just take Lore of Metal which is full of nothing but Augments/Hexes/Direct Damage. (and is easy to cast with +4 to boot). And as a Lv4, he'll be your go-to chicken for all your dispels. (so he'll generate a tone of poential charges unless you get unlucky).
That charge-counter can absolutely sky-rocket, especially against say VC's who will be looking to cast lots of cheap spells to support their otherwise lackluster units, or else anyone lacking a Lv4 of their own. (I know, I know, that's like expecting the Leafs will win the Stanley Cup! )

Plus it's a paltry 25pts. You're either being nice by not taking it, or just plain silly.


Due to how the BSB works, I doubt you'll see much in the way of 'pantheon armies' anymore. More likely everyone will take hordes of their prefered Core choice, (or rather, for tournies Plaguebearers or Daemonettes), and then the corresponding Herald to match.


Daemons still have a couple brutal powerbuilds, and I firmly expect them remain a top tier army.
They simply have alot more terd choices and rules this time 'round...

It's not a paltry 25 pts. DoC doesn't have paltry. They get 3 boons max. 50/25/25. And that's the only combination that can do that and only Greater Daemons can do that. Otherwise they only get 2 max. (50/50, 25/25, 50/25, or a really lucky 75/25). So whether it costs 25pts or 509823, it's half their boons. The point category for DoC isn't really as meaningful as other heroes. You get 2 boons, roll to choose, or get a cheaper WEAPON from the BRB.

Get something sucky, like dispel ability on your Bloodthirster, tough luck.

I'm baffled by people complaining about the randomness of the army. If you don't get a useful power, you get a magic sword. The kicker is you choose at the start of the game, so you are tailoring the daemons for your opponent.
The only downside to the wand is that you've got to be tzeench.

A buffed up great daemon of tzeench isn't really any better than a blood thrister with a sword of swiftness.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
I'm baffled by people complaining about the randomness of the army. If you don't get a useful power, you get a magic sword. The kicker is you choose at the start of the game, so you are tailoring the daemons for your opponent.
The only downside to the wand is that you've got to be tzeench.

A buffed up great daemon of tzeench isn't really any better than a blood thrister with a sword of swiftness.

-Matt

Because I wouldn't consider a magic sword on my GUO all that useful. I'd much rather him get +2 wounds or something, only I can't simply buy that for 50 points, I have to pay the points and then hope I get it.

 jonolikespie wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
I'm baffled by people complaining about the randomness of the army. If you don't get a useful power, you get a magic sword. The kicker is you choose at the start of the game, so you are tailoring the daemons for your opponent.
The only downside to the wand is that you've got to be tzeench.

A buffed up great daemon of tzeench isn't really any better than a blood thrister with a sword of swiftness.

-Matt

Because I wouldn't consider a magic sword on my GUO all that useful. I'd much rather him get +2 wounds or something, only I can't simply buy that for 50 points, I have to pay the points and then hope I get it.

Nobody can buy 2 wounds for 50 points. I pay 55 points for 1 wound.
Why do you want 2 wounds anyway? Isn't 6 enough? If you are worried about cannons, you should be spending 75 points on the portable cannon ball blocker.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
I'm baffled by people complaining about the randomness of the army. If you don't get a useful power, you get a magic sword. The kicker is you choose at the start of the game, so you are tailoring the daemons for your opponent.

Not amazingly. You're choosing a weapon at the most. It's not like you're getting a whole new magic item allowance to choose from. I.e., magic armor and enchants and banners and such.

The difference between the Greater Daemons is really very slight now. It almost comes down to their marks and those couple of unique items (and what the rest of the army is).

I mean, Tzeentch is no longer a great caster army. At all. The Herald can get a whole +1 to cast if he's with Horrors he locuses (if he buys it). Blue Scribes absolutely suck now. Changeling was made a lvl 1. The +2 to cast is gone. The ability to reroll a die only belongs to Khairos and it's based on a magic item (can be destroyed, etc). Spell destroyer is gone. Spell breaker is gone. Power Vortex is gone. Loremaster is gone. Avoiding first miscast is gone. Rerolling a 1 on channel is about it. You can't even get mass horror units to try and get a zillion dice as the min still costs 130, which is way more than a Herald. Ironically, mindless horrors are the best casters Tz has to offer other than a full lvl 4 GD--and their miscast penalty got nearly doubled and they lost their 4+ ward. Though you need less horrors to get a higher lvl than you used to. But since they only know one lore, 1 unit and a Herald will already know all the spells. They might have to FAQ that. Khairos is the only thing that makes the army even possibly good at magic and he's much more fragile. Out of all the gifts, there's only a few that aren't pure combat-related, and you can only randomly get those. And a few of them are horrific (sorcerous lodestone).

Khorne, Nurgle and Slaanesh are very powerful combat armies. Tz is a mediocre combat army and mediocre caster army IMHO.

Meh, its just like other 8th edition books. Its just at the mercy of the Winds roll.

1/36 chance of taking Instability tests, 1/36 chance of getting a free unit. Sure, thats fine.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
I'm baffled by people complaining about the randomness of the army. If you don't get a useful power, you get a magic sword. The kicker is you choose at the start of the game, so you are tailoring the daemons for your opponent.
The only downside to the wand is that you've got to be tzeench.

A buffed up great daemon of tzeench isn't really any better than a blood thrister with a sword of swiftness.

-Matt

Because I wouldn't consider a magic sword on my GUO all that useful. I'd much rather him get +2 wounds or something, only I can't simply buy that for 50 points, I have to pay the points and then hope I get it.

Nobody can buy 2 wounds for 50 points. I pay 55 points for 1 wound.
Why do you want 2 wounds anyway? Isn't 6 enough? If you are worried about cannons, you should be spending 75 points on the portable cannon ball blocker.

-Matt

Your vampire is not a greater daemon though. GUOs are supposed to be ridiculously hard to kill, they are cheaper now but a single cannon shot can do it is the point I was trying to make. I want to play Nurgle to play an army that might not be all that killy but is very hard to kill itself, a magic sword doesn't help me at all there.

As for the portable wall thing, I really hate that. It really feels like it is only in there to sell terrain kits and I would refuse to use it on that basis alone. I don't want to see 9th introduce buy-able terrain like in 40k.

All of DoC is there to sell units. Their entire lore attributes and winds attributes randomly create new units. Not to mention you create buildings.

Epidimius, IMHO, is much better for a Nurgle army than GUO. And he just makes them insanely killy.

Well I got the wand of whimsy up to 4 charges before I hit combat, he took out a pair of stegadons with ease. Running lore of metal was pretty effective. Had wand+ dispel bonus, exalted, but I rolled the 6 and also got ASF. Perfect set up to run.

I tried Mono-TZ Changing, Scribes, dual soul grinders,ect passed on the warpfire chariots. the whole shebang.

4 units of 15 horrors to start the game with, ended up with 3 units over 30. I didn't cast a lot with the LOC though, he was under becalming most of the game. But stole comet on turn 2, and that's where things went bad for the lizzies. Each of his busses stuck on a grinder and comets dropping on him. Since Scribes rolled comet.

I tend to roll on heavens for scribes since range is 24 for everything.