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If so, which weapons and when? Also, I run more veteran oriented lists, can they be useful in vet squads?

As a general rule, no. Veterans are usually moving (in a transport, so you can't move most of the squad and keep the heavy weapon stationary), and snap fire heavy weapons are not cost effective.

If your going for a gunline with lots of infantry squads its a very good idea to have HWT in your infantry squads for the long range fire support, otherwise if your using veterans then no they arent really a good idea. As Peregrine noted the veterans should be moving forward in transports thus making them snap fire and thats usually a waste of points.

I like having autocannon squads overlooking open terrain. They can kill av13 vehicles and troops fairly well.


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I like having autocannon squads overlooking open terrain. They can kill av13 vehicles and troops fairly well.

I found that 1 unit of mortars is horrible. 3 indirect fire blasts is pretty decent at allocating out a heavy weapon or special weapon.

Having a scoring unit with indirect fire is never bad, especially with how short those mortar crew are, they can hide behind all kinds of stuff.

-Matt

Heavy weapons teams? Yes. There are some things that are hard to handle without a bunch of lascannons. Not impossible, of course, but they do offer you a lot of up-front killing power against the scariest targets in the game. Also, they give you the option to sit still and shoot effectively.

Heavy weapons squads? Well...

 Ailaros wrote:
Heavy weapons teams? Yes. There are some things that are hard to handle without a bunch of lascannons. Not impossible, of course, but they do offer you a lot of up-front killing power against the scariest targets in the game. Also, they give you the option to sit still and shoot effectively.

Heavy weapons squads? Well...

Can you continue on squads? Like or dislike?

Dislike.

They concentrate more killing power into fewer squads, but that's actually the opposite of what you want. You want to focus your killing power on the ENEMY'S squads, not have your killing power focused onto a few, super fragile carrier units of your own, ripe for your opponent to kill off. Basically, you're doing your opponent a favor by reverse providing concentration for their guns.

I mean, think about it. Side A has 9 guns on 9 squads. Side B has 9 guns on 3 squads. Side A only needs to be able to focus on 3 squads, and side B has no guns. Side B has to kill literally everything to stop side A from shooting. Put another way, side A can have 1/3rd of the ability of side B to focus its killing power, and still be on equal terms with side B.

Of course, it's not quite that simple, and for whatever gains you make in anti-concentration durability you largely lose by having to pay increased carrier costs, but the problem still stands.

Yes, HWSs are the cheapest way to get more guns, but they're also the fastest way to lose guns due to enemy action.

In a world where first blood is a secondary objective, that's a bad thing.

Of course, this does ignore the fact that a PIS has a carrier cost of 50 points per heavy weapon, while a HWS has a carrier cost of only 15 points. So that's 70 points per lascannon, or 105 points for three.

Ailaros absolutely has a point. But as he said, "it's not quite that simple," and I wanted to provide some detail into that part of the argument.

Personally, I can't say I'm a fan of either option. HWTs are just depressing all around.

I prefer the old heavy weapon setup myself. Especially for HWT in 10 man squads. It used to take up 1 guardsman effectively, now it takes up two. It looks out of place too having a 60mm base in a group of 8 28mm bases.

Eldar still have the rules for 2 person artillery, why did they ruin it for imperial guard?

It used to be that 3 could fire lasguns while 3 fire the heavy weapons. If you take one >s6 hit you would lose one crew member and still have your gun. Now you take a single >s6 wound and you lose the gun and both guys because it's instant death! I want to use a house rule where instant death doesn't apply to a heavy weapon team.

Eldar have exactly the same kind of weapons without this nerf.

Well, and for the carrier cost, think of it this way. Which of these two would you rather have?

PCS
PIS
PIS
HWS - 3x lascannons

or...

PCS - lascannon
PIS - lascannon, plasma gun
PIS - lascannon, plasma gun

For the same price?

It doesn't even get better as you scale, because this...

PCS
PIS
PIS
HWS - 3x lascannons
HWS - 3x lascannons
HWS - 3x lascannons

Is basically the same cost as...

PCS - lascannon
PIS - lascannon, meltagun
PIS - lascannon, meltagun
PIS - lascannon, meltagun
PIS - lascannon, meltagun
PIS - lascannon, meltagun

It would be tough to argue that the HWSs are better at killing tanks, but it's certainly going to be much, MUCH easier for your opponent to shut down 3 HWSs than an entire infantry platoon.

Well each time you want to shoot tanks your entire infantry platoon is shutdown as well if you put hwt in the pis

What else were you going to do with them?

Plus, one of the few things that infantry gained by 6th edition was the loss of by-unit movement rules. It's possible to move most of an infantry squad forward and leave the model holding the lascannon still. In that way, the lascannon can fire at full BS, AND the PIS can move around.

Oh cool, what page is that on? That sounds nice


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And even if they have to move they can still fire snapshots?

I always have greater success then failure with HWS. I run a straight up horde army with no vehicles other than a Vendetta or two and HWS for the most part always hold my line. A squad or two in even decent cover with a CCS nearby to give them orders with a clear fields of fire allows me to control a good chunk of the board, and that without putting down a defense line. Have even better success of putting down a mortar team on an objective on my side of the board since they should be out of sight and still allow my to put rounds down field. Now they do have the downside of instant death but that is why if you do bring them there should be multiple squads and not just one or two.

 Panzer1944 wrote:
I always have greater success then failure with HWS. I run a straight up horde army with no vehicles other than a Vendetta or two and HWS for the most part always hold my line. A squad or two in even decent cover with a CCS nearby to give them orders with a clear fields of fire allows me to control a good chunk of the board, and that without putting down a defense line. Have even better success of putting down a mortar team on an objective on my side of the board since they should be out of sight and still allow my to put rounds down field. Now they do have the downside of instant death but that is why if you do bring them there should be multiple squads and not just one or two.

I just realised with instant death, you lose one HWS model and you have to take a morale test.... That's ridiculous lol

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, and for the carrier cost, think of it this way. Which of these two would you rather have?

PCS
PIS
PIS
HWS - 3x lascannons

or...

PCS - lascannon
PIS - lascannon, plasma gun
PIS - lascannon, plasma gun
It would be tough to argue that the HWSs are better at killing tanks, but it's certainly going to be much, MUCH easier for your opponent to shut down 3 HWSs than an entire infantry platoon.

Or you could do a comparison where the HWTs aren't paying 130 points of lasguns. Just because you have to buy a PCS and two PIS doesn't mean you can't do something useful with them.

foxyfennec wrote:
I just realised with instant death, you lose one HWS model and you have to take a morale test.... That's ridiculous lol

It is true but if you are running them with your CCS to issue orders not a huge deal breaker. As long as they don't run off the board you would just order them "GBITF" and they are good to go.

Corollax wrote:Or you could do a comparison where the HWTs aren't paying 130 points of lasguns. Just because you have to buy a PCS and two PIS doesn't mean you can't do something useful with them.

But you can't take HWSs without buying a platoon first. Looking at just the price of HWSs is pointless.

And yes, you could spend more points to take HWSs AND better-armed platoons, but then you have to give more points to the platoons player to spend at his discretion. I mean, which would you rather have...

PCS - lascannon
PIS - lascannon, meltagun
PIS - lascannon, meltagun
HWS - lascannon
HWS - lascannon


PCS - lascannon
PIS - lascannon, meltagun
PIS - lascannon, meltagun
Vendetta
Marbo


They cost the same, but one is decidedly better than the other.

There's just no way to get around the fact that the carrier costs of more PISs are largely neutralized by the carrier costs of the HWSs.

I miss the 4th edition codex because it still had room for 2 man heavy weapon teams

I kept insisting that the new 2 man bases had 2 wounds because the codex said they were 2 guardsmen and people in my local store were like "no, it's one unit with one wound" lol

The next codex sure showed them!! mwahahahaa

Now they just need an FAQ entry for immunity to instant death. I emailed customer support. Follow me!! Email into battle!!

I have been up all night and drank a lot of caffeine :(


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 Ailaros wrote:

Corollax wrote:Or you could do a comparison where the HWTs aren't paying 130 points of lasguns. Just because you have to buy a PCS and two PIS doesn't mean you can't do something useful with them.

But you can't take HWSs without buying a platoon first. Looking at just the price of HWSs is pointless.

And yes, you could spend more points to take HWSs AND better-armed platoons, but then you have to give more points to the platoons player to spend at his discretion. I mean, which would you rather have...

PCS - lascannon
PIS - lascannon, meltagun
PIS - lascannon, meltagun
HWS - lascannon
HWS - lascannon


PCS - lascannon
PIS - lascannon, meltagun
PIS - lascannon, meltagun
Vendetta
Marbo


They cost the same, but one is decidedly better than the other.

There's just no way to get around the fact that the carrier costs of more PISs are largely neutralized by the carrier costs of the HWSs.

I am too anal for this.

If I add heavy weapons to my PIS I will remove a special weapon from each of them. Because it feels like a wasted special weapon. I'll be far away with my autocannons!!!

First world problems.

That is the thing... a HWS can be effective, but you as the player have to use it right, place it right, and support it right. it is the same with anything in the IG Codex really. Naked by themselves out in the open is just being dumb and your setting yourself up for failure.

Placing them in cover or behind a ADL makes them just as effective as a HWT in a PIS, because the HWT has to be up at the ADL to shoot 'over' it, otherwise it will block their LoS. This takes away the advantage of placing them in a PIS, as the advantage is to have 4+ guardsmen standing in front of it taking shots and not blocking LoS. A CCS with a Regimental Banner helps both because of the Ld re-roll, but the PIS should have a better Ld because it has at least a Sergeant and /should/ have a Commissar. Orders helps both, specially 'Bring it Down!' and 'Fire on my Target!' to make them TLed against MCs/Vehicles and to ignore Cover saves.

Personally, if I /really/ want to make my HWSs effective I make sure I get a Lord Commissar for one HQ slot and a CCS in a second. I give the Lord a Camo Cloak and a bolter or just leave him naked in cover (such as firing my ADL weapon). I make sure I have at least one HWT within 6" of him, preferable two, and thus make use of his 'Aura of Discipline' to make them Ld 10 for Orders, Moral checks, and pinning. If you want to be risky, you could attach him to a squad, giving them Stealth (if you sprung for the Cloak), but I feel the Execution rule risk outweighs the reward.

For a mere 165+pts (ADL/Icarus LC + Lord Commissar + Cloak) I have made my HWSs effective and as durable as I can make them. Plus I now have a BS 5 on my AA and instant cover save for my list... which if your foot guard you are already looking to have. So really, the Lord Commissar points is the only real 'carrier' cost at this point. I would only get the Lord Commissar if I had 3+ HWSs... I feel he can only really cover 3-4 squads effectively. At that point, I really start considering Creed for his 4 Orders a turn to make them effective.

I feel foot Vets with Forward Sentries with a LC and 3 plasma guns is a under used, but effective, unit that is cheaper than Plasma Vets in Chimeras. Named characters like Harker and even Bastonne can increase their effectiveness even more. But if you want to do attacking Chimeras, they probably shouldn't have a HWT, though tossing on a AC makes use of that 4th fire port (out of 5) and gives you some tactical flexibility... if you got the points to blow. Most IG lists can make use of those points in a more effective manner.

In the end, if supported right and used properly, yes. They can be very effective. Anything can be if you put the effort into it.

Because I have more heavy weapons teams than squads for them to go in I use both. I find HWS are high risk high reward. Its a lot of gun in one place and allows you to fire and maneuver in the same turn, but conversely if your enemy wants them dead they will die. However this is the imperial guard, if the enemy wants anything we have on the table dead it will probably die, the trick is to get their deaths to mean something.

I plop mine next to some Russes or artillery and they generally get targeted less. When they are getting shot at, thats more PIS surviving to grab objectives. When they aren't getting shot at they are almost always hurting something.

Great unit? By no means. But they can be effective.

I like mortar teams. Hide them out of sight and harrass/pin/kill light to medium infantry. Cheap and scoring. Able to snipe out special weapons sergents etc. Anything else is pants for the reasons already given.

 jamin484 wrote:
I like mortar teams. Hide them out of sight and harrass/pin/kill light to medium infantry. Cheap and scoring. Able to snipe out special weapons sergents etc. Anything else is pants for the reasons already given.

I am all for using mortars as they look awesome however, while they are cheap scoring that's not something the guard usually has problems with. I've always wanted to use mortars for the authentic military feel they give my list but could never justify the cost of actually buying them.

I have enough spare laying around however that I could probably just buy some 60mm bases, some guardsmen and make a ton of mortar teams

You could also take a psyker battle squad with a mortar HWS - cast weaken resolve on a scary unit, then blast them with the mortars. That's a pinning check at Ld2!

 Colonel Dakura wrote:
You could also take a psyker battle squad with a mortar HWS - cast weaken resolve on a scary unit, then blast them with the mortars. That's a pinning check at Ld2!

All those scary units are generally immune to pinning anyway. Also you're taking mortars and a PBS just to pin a unit? Wouldn't those 185pts be better spent on I don't know a Medusa or a Basilisk to kill the unit, rather than just potentially stop it moving for a turn?

In my local meta there is a lot more light infantry in sixth, that is often not fearless and camps objectives. Three small blasts can really knock holes in units like that. That means my bassies can target other, more worthwhile targets. I also really like the feel and look of Mortars as EmilCrane said, and am perhaps blind to their weaknesses because I like taking them so much.

My HWTs go with the platoon and take LC, behind an aegis.My HWS take AC and sit in cover. No my opponent can shoot at a HWT with AC that will GtG and GBITF. Worst case I loose some AC. They take heat off other units by providing a unit that can more readily be dispatched. If they are ignored I get to plink away with AC all game. I gonna be tryin probably 2 mortor squads soon. What can I say I love indirect fire and artillery. It's demoralizing to the opponent to be receiving indirect blast rounds every turn.

Not to mention barrage weapons' wounds are originating from the center of the blast, so your opponent can forget his cover save most of the time as well.