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So getting back into 40k, dropped out of the hobby after 4th ed and having played some games i've started working on a competitive list to focus on collecting. I'm running Wolves and am looking for your thoughts on the predator with Autocannon and Sponson Heavy bolters at 85 Pts which will sit behind an aegis with 2 squads of Long Fang ML spam. Does this seem viable or are vehicals really not worth it? Maybe use the points to put some Lascannons in the Long fangs instead?

Cheers

Long fangs are going to always been seen as better as they can split fire and possibly damage multiple threats. I was going to consider a predator myself, but the best variant that I see is the autocannon with sponson lascannons because it can engage most targets equally, just doesnt kill as many light infantry models.

If you have ML spam, you probably want the AC LC varient

Yea, that makes sense, though once i start adding Lascannons it seems better to take more Long Fangs, i think ill pick up a Forge world Deimos pattern and magnatise it just to mix the list up a bit for casual play i guess Thanks

I thought it was a good movie. One or Arnold's best, actually.

2nd one was terrible though...

 Wingeds wrote:
2nd one was terrible though...

Heresy!

As people are bringing more anti-infantry power, I've been bringing more predators instead of havocs. The same principal applies to long fangs.

While long fangs are great, they can give up 'first blood' very quicky. An AV 13 vehicle is much less likely to give it up like some long fangs.

You lose a little bit of firepower (1 heavy weapon) but gain extra durability.

Unless you can get the newly priced lascannon version, I'd still rank the AC/LC variant as best overall

The question is do space wolves need the anti infantry? I mean which infantry are they so concerned about?

I've made no secret of how crappy I think the ML is this edition, and I don't see how it magically gets better in the hands of long fangs. Yeah, its better than C:SM devs, but that means is just less bad.

Heldrakes, omg, they love Long Fangs. Those long fangs must have insulted the silly fly boys during the HH or something.

I'm a fan of the TL-LC LC sponson version. It's quite costly, but you really do get what you pay for when it comes to guns. The Dakka Pred feels so sub-par. It's only 8 shots, that's not dakka IMO. So I'm going to be that guy who suggests allies. The DA pred is cheaper. IG brings better tanks over-all too.

Oh also, why not try Vindicators? They fulfil a similar role, it's just more balls to the wall.

Vindicators are a lot less effective vs MCs in my experience. Autolas/pred can put up to 4 wounds on an MC, vindicator never more than one.

Hence the word "similar"

 labmouse42 wrote:
As people are bringing more anti-infantry power, I've been bringing more predators instead of havocs. The same principal applies to long fangs.

While long fangs are great, they can give up 'first blood' very quicky. An AV 13 vehicle is much less likely to give it up like some long fangs.

You lose a little bit of firepower (1 heavy weapon) but gain extra durability.

The AV13 vehicle is only more durable if the enemy really skimped on AT guns. Tanks in general are easier to kill than they've ever been in terms of average number of shots needed to destroy them. For many armies it's going to be a lot easier to engage an AV13 vehicle they just need to glance 3 times to kill than to kill 6 marines in cover from across the board, and the Long Fangs, as a unit, are much harder to "instakill" than any tank is.

Assuming autocannons as they are pretty middle of the road.

It takes 18 hits to bust a Predator on average outside of cover.
Those same 18 hits will kill 5 MEQs.

Seems pretty even to me.

Except that autocannons are miserably bad at dealing with AV13 targets. And since plasma's gotten so much better in 6th, people are dropping melta to take it. The standard answer to this compromise is to bring more lascannons.

Of course, MEQ aren't much more resilient against those.

I don't drop melta in my lists. Maybe that's because I'm BA, but I really like the reliability of melta, particularly MM. Remember than in many cases, MM can double as krak missiles that don't suck. Especially when its mounted on something that moves 12" and can still fire.

That being said, I'll take the ability of the predator to get lascannons at a reasonable price over the long fangs if I were building space wolves. Why do the space wolves need the frag missiles again? There's nothing the frag missiles can kill that won't just die like slime to space wolves in HTH. I know this, because even BA die like slime to space wolves, so what exactly are the space wolves scared of? Termangants? Orks? What are you shooting these frag missiles at?

Stop the ML hate! Lol

Seriously tho ML are not as bad as some of you guys think. They are not a replacement for melta or plasma or even LC but they have their place.

I like 2 x 5 man - 4 ML BA dev squads. Great for 130 pts. As a BA player inhave also had my JP librarian instagibbed by a krak missile more than once.

That beig said, the one army I won't take ML is guard. They just don't need it, they have much better toys.

No, ML are actually worse than many think. I constantly see people fielding ML devs and recommending others do the same. They're terrible in 6th.

They literally have no niche in 6th edition that isn't better filled by another weapon. The thing that REALLY kills them is the AP 3. If krak missiles were AP 2, it would be a different story completely. Krak missiles are ROF 1 hp strippers; that's awful.

Trust me, there are plenty of ways for a BA libby to die. No krak missiles needed.

If ur going against a heldrake with longfangs, like Griddlelol said, they will get killed in one go. When I went against my friends space wolves, one turn the heldrake killed all the longfangs, the next turn he killed the rune priest. What im saying is that IMO longfangs are easy first bloods and that predators are much sturdier. I would just take as many LC as possible.

I'm not even worried about first blood. I'm worried about the fact that everyone seems to put ML on these guys. If that's the most optimal weapon choice for them, they are bad for that reason, not because of helldrakes. Helldrakes hoover up all infantry.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not even worried about first blood. I'm worried about the fact that everyone seems to put ML on these guys. If that's the most optimal weapon choice for them, they are bad for that reason, not because of helldrakes. Helldrakes hoover up all infantry.

Why is it bad if the ML is the most optimal choice? It's not as effective as it was in 5th edition due to the edition changes, but that doesn't mean it's actually bad, just not as effective as it once was. 140pts for 5 S8 48" Bs4 weapons that can engage two targets is hard to be for cost effectiveness.

Because you are spending a heavy weapon slot to field heavy weapons that suck at killing heavy targets and suck at killing light targets. Again, the profile of a krak missile makes it a ROF 1 hp stripper. That's a horrible use of a heavy weapon slot.

The ML is not cost effective due to its low kill rate. It's much more cost effective to pay a bit more for a specialist weapon and actually do damage that means something. That's why I don't like the ML.

I know they're not very popular, but Long Fangs get a fantastic deal on heavy bolters. For only 115 points, you can get 15 BS4 S5 AP4 shots. While you are force to pay for an ablative wound in the form of a Squad Leader, that Squad Leader lets the team split fire -- potentially forcing leadership tests on two squads at a time.

And since these marines are only 20 points per model, you're not losing a huge investment if they die to something like a Helldrake. Watching 215 points of lascannons go up in baleflamer smoke is painful. 115 points? Less so.

If you can get your antitank weaponry elsewhere, you can easily supplement your anti-infantry firepower with one of these Long Fang squads. Drop-podding Combi-melta Wolf Guard are an excellent way to accomplish this. Allies are even better.

I feel the heavy bolter really benefitted from the change to necron warriors. Note that the heavy bolter also penetrates fire warrior armor and many aspect warriors as well. The heavy bolter also penetrates hard boy armor. A couple guys run hard boyz just to mess with people who try to meta against Orks. That many greenskins with 4+ save can be trouble in the right situation.

Anti-tank = melta and lascannon for heavy stuff, autocannon , assault cannon and plasma gun for light stuff. Sometimes, against some AV 10 targets, it's even worth using the thunderfire cannon with no cover save ammo. There simply is no role for the krak missile in this spectrum.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The AV13 vehicle is only more durable if the enemy really skimped on AT guns. Tanks in general are easier to kill than they've ever been in terms of average number of shots needed to destroy them.

For low AV vehicles, I would agree, but AV 13 is not easy to strip hull points off. STR 7 is doing so on a 6.

Everyone's meta is different, so I wonder what your viewing "skimped on AT guns" is. I'm not seeing ML spam any more. Are you?
At best, I see a few melta guns, but those are no real threats do predators. In the meta today, there are a lot more threats to long fangs.

I still see a grab bag is stuff. Meltas, plasma, lootas, Vendettas, sternguards in pods, etc. However, the massed small arms fire that can choose between generic grey hunter 001 or the long fangs will pick out the long fangs. And of course, Helldrake does as Helldrake pleases.

Just like Video killed the Radio Star, Heldrake killed the Longfang Squad.
...

 Brymm wrote:
Just like Video killed the Radio Star, Heldrake killed the Longfang Squad.
...

And there was much rejoicing.

I've been considering a predator recently but I've been stumped with the load out. Should I take all LC or HB/AC so now should I take HB and TLC or AC and LC sponsons.