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Just seeing what you all think of net lists i for one hate them and there is no thought put in so I'm putting up a poll

Exactly how is there no thought put into them? Net lists tend to be drafted from the combination of mathhammer and the experience of dozens, hundreds even, tournament players to produce the best possible lists.

Agreed.
There is alot thought put into most of the net lists.
I like thinking out my lists from every perspective, and having some lists in the net can be used as an inspiration.
All in all, i don't mind them.

 skullspliter888 wrote:
Just seeing what you all think of net lists i for one hate them and there is no thought put in so I'm putting up a poll

Well speaking of no thought... Did you mean "tired of net lists"? I thought this would be about which net lists we have "tried".

I'm tired of people making crap titles on the forum... Net lists don't bother me, spam lists bother me.

I hate polls which give you a neutral option and an option which is the desired result of the polster.

Nets lists are awesome. Good to quickly see what can be brought along to a certain pt value game. Also good to talk tactics from.

A bad player can still lose a game. Don't mind them, as I get to learn how to fix my list/tactics.

I dislike spamy netlists - ie: 2-4 Jaws/Living Lightning Rune Priests + 4-6x Grey Hunters in las/plas razorback + 3x Missilefangs.
It's just boring to play against as there's no variety anywhere and no imagination at all in the list construction. It just reeks of "I have to win the easy way", especially when you see the same person using that exact same list every single week during open gaming nights.

I can understand it's place in a tournament setting, especially a 'winner-take-all' style tournament which only offers prizes for winning games. (ie: no sportsmanship, overall or painting awards)

But to show up on what's supposed to be just a laid back & friendly open gaming night, and then roflstomping mainly the younger players?
Those types of people need a swift sharp kick to the junk and told to go feth off because all they do is kill the community and discourage almost every single newer player from continuing in the 40k hobby.

I have no problem with them.

Net lists are fine. People have different play styles. Also, if I have limited funds to buy models, I'm not investing in "B squad" or crap tier units.

I play Wolves. While I mix it up, yes I bring grey hunters, a rune priest (with divination powers) and long fangs. I want to run Wolf units. I'm not bringing derp claws for the same cost as a grey hunter. That's moronic. Rune Priests are the cost effective HQ we have. And Long Fangs are points efficient and the only heavy weapons item that is Wolfy in nature. If I wanted predators or vindicators, I'd run vanilla marines. I play for a challenge. If you want to "forge a narrative," cool. Then maybe I'll bring a land raider full of derp claws and Ragnar.

Now, just claim I'm net listing with my SoB

Why have you allowed people to select both options?
Why does it only have "no" and "neutral" as an answer?

Yeah, I don't really care either.

My only beef is when people put netlists up on the armylist forum and then asks for help on them as if it was something they came up with and wanted to show everyone how awesome at list building they were.

So long as you realise you're copying a netlist, rather than being some sort of strategic genius, then copy away.

There is nothing wrong with netlists. The good ones are the result of experience and mathhammer while the bad ones disappear quickly.
There is also nothing wrong with being a special snowflake or using an Ouija board to create your lists as long as people keep in mind that their chances of
victory might be compromised when doing so.

I hate it when people don't use netlists, it means that I have to feel bad about crushing them because they used obviously inferior units.

 Lobukia wrote:

 skullspliter888 wrote:
Just seeing what you all think of net lists i for one hate them and there is no thought put in so I'm putting up a poll

Well speaking of no thought... Did you mean "tired of net lists"? I thought this would be about which net lists we have "tried".

I'm tired of people making crap titles on the forum... Net lists don't bother me, spam lists bother me.

Yeah, it's really bad when people put no thought into their polls, titles and postings.

I agree. The only way to stop net lists is to shut down the Internet. Let's start by posting some terrible threads... wait

 xttz wrote:
Let's start by posting some terrible threads... wait

Oooh, what's step two?

maybe a better poll would be: Do you like to play and play against Net Lists?

I dont mind them and I dont feel like I should tell people what kind of army to take.

Problem i find with net is a lot of players think ther auto win list if you don'tknow how to use ur army list and how it works you still not going have easy time wining

Net lists have pluses and minues (like anything else)

1. They are good because they can be great starting points for in-depth discussion of tactics and utilization. It is also good for people who make their own lists and want others opinions on how to make it better.

2. They can be bad because you will always have the guys (or girls) that stalk the forums for the next big thing and copy the lists just to rolfstomp everyone they play (even friendly, non-tournament). The net lists help facilitate it.

Overall though, I do not mind because I believe there are enough people that follow #1 that it ends up heavily outweighing #2.

Good lists win games, good players win tournaments.
Actually, I think Michael Jordan said that.

In all seriousness, I see no reason to complain about net lists. I like seeing them as it gives me an idea of what I'll see in a tournament. Besides, no one just takes a net list and wins with it, you almost always have to add your own touch to it so it works for you. For example, I run my Nids similar to the standard "net list", but I like to drop Hive Guard and add Y. stealers and I also like to buff up my gant squads beyond the basic 10 man. That just works better for me than the net Nid list. Then again, there are players who play net lists because they basically created them. Look at jy2s Nids, he runs a net list, because he made it!

 jifel wrote:
Good lists win games, good players win tournaments.
Actually, I think Michael Jordan said that.

In all seriousness, I see no reason to complain about net lists. I like seeing them as it gives me an idea of what I'll see in a tournament. Besides, no one just takes a net list and wins with it, you almost always have to add your own touch to it so it works for you. For example, I run my Nids similar to the standard "net list", but I like to drop Hive Guard and add Y. stealers and I also like to buff up my gant squads beyond the basic 10 man. That just works better for me than the net Nid list. Then again, there are players who play net lists because they basically created them. Look at jy2s Nids, he runs a net list, because he made it!

See this is what is cool. When people take the lists like a strategy and adapt it to their playing style. At that point I, personally, don't believe that it is a copy job (leaving out the person who thought of the list); it is your way of using "tactics" you learned to be competitive. It isn't "alright. vendetta spam. let me use this tomorrow.".

Never fought against one so I'm unable to vote. A poll with only two options isn't going to get an accurate opinion unless the question can really only have a clear yes/no answer.

edit - Why have I got a US flag flying next to my name?!?!?!?

My problem with Netlists is while they're mathhammered into the best optimisation possible, they're hampered by, in general, being done so by tournament players. This isn't inherently a bad thing, the problem that comes from it is they're built to the tournament metagame - take all comers lists for the tournament environment.

This becomes a problem when you bring it into a non-tournament metagame, because non-tournament metagames evolve on their own. If people are making their own lists and evolving them against each other, while there's a good chance your netlist will do well, there's a good chance your netlist will fail horribly. More/less terrain on average than expected, concentrations of unit types the list isn't focused on defeating, not understanding the nuances of the list in certain situations, playing only battle missions rather than rulebook missions, etc. There's a lot of variables that can throw a netlist right off.

So, while a netlist is generally very well built and optimised, a player wanting to 'be the best' right off the bat and getting into a new army on a netlist, might end up walking into a situation where he still gets absolutely clobbered every single game, which perpetuates a very negative feeling towards the army. Netlists are good starting points for people on a budget, but people tend to look at them as 'the complete package' rather than starting points.

I like them because they give me ideas about what units and wargear are solid options. As I tend to get caught up in the cool fluffy but not so good on the table rules and units.
They give me a foundation to build on as I would often go for the more outlandish builds that fall down on a table.
I disagree with spam and win at all cost lists however.

I think they're good. People share ideas and can help develop effective lists.

I hate them when they get to the point where you play five different players with the same list. Before the March update, I never played a Daemon player who played anything else but Plaguebearers, Flamers, Screamers, and a cheap Herald.

I have to admit, my feelings towards "net listing" were bitter mainly from my experience with MtG. When you play in a tournament and 9 out of 10 players are using the same thing, and all claim to be tactical geniuses for coming up with this game breaking combo, and will argue to the death they came up with it on their own. While this can apply to 40k, it is to a lesser extent.

Net lists for 40k form a solid baseline for two things. A starting point to build an army around, and a base of what you could expect to see that army run in a competitive environment. What net listing is also great for is when you see how players find ways to tear them apart (this applies to both 40k and MtG).

I find net listing combined with flavor of the month bandwagon hopping to be the only time I really get irritated. For example, at my local store, there are 4 or 5 necron players, and 5 or 6 csm players. Each player runs 95% the same list for their respective army. This is fine, although it gets a little boring. The only part that bugs me is the whole "well I came up with this great idea to max out my heldrakes" or "I was building lists on my own for hours then came up with this maxes flier combination for my necrons". I could within probably 5 minutes find almost the exact list run by both of them here on the forums. When they win and claim it is because they are some kind of list building god, that's when it bugs me. I will our right tell opponents, "yeah this list started mostly based on a raven wing list I found on Dakka". Some armies do have roflstomp builds, and when you see them spammed everywhere it gets old.

*this only took me 30 seconds, and is the necron list I play all the time at the store, but at 1750 instead of 1850. I was too lazy to look up an 1850 version, but you get the point.*
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/515008.page

Here is where net listing swings the pendulum the other way. I went to the forums to find the weaknesses of these armies, and luckily they share similar weakness. Low model count, and prone to spammed anti air. So with some forum help, I build an anti flyer spam list with a lot of meq killyness. Needless to say I started tearing those crons and csm spam lists a new one. When asked, I told them right out "I went on to the forums, talked to people about the weakness of your list, and built a list that can deal with it better". The list I used is not a "net list" per say, but it was net list inspired. It's still a decent TAC list, not list tailored to beat them, as I wanted it to beat both necrons and csm, as well as other flier spam lists (not quite as effective against valkdetta spam but I still pull off wins).

In short, do I hate netlists, no. Do I get frustrated seeing the same roflstomp copy paste job over and over, yes. But net listing helps fight that too, so it has its yin and its yang. I use the internet like it was meant to be used when it comes to list building, a source of information. I also like to cite my sources, no plagiarism for me!

well pwntallica you do what you are supposed to do against Net-lists, instead of sitting here crying your eyes out you found their weaknesses and exploited it.

Its in same in MTG, if there is a popular list out, find a way to counter it, and counter it so badly that you will never see that list again.

Dracoknight wrote:
counter it so badly that you will never see that list again.

This. The first couple of times may be annoying, but if it keeps reoccurring you can generally destroy them fast. Just like Space Wolves in 5th.