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I'm painting up lizardmen right now.
What lore would you take to kill high elves?

I'm thinking either light to buff me, or shadow to hex them. Of course, hitting the 2+ ward vs magic with dwellers does seem like poetic justice.

-Matt

Well, you're not going to get around Dwellers now, so I'd vouch for Lore of Life.

The second Slann could go for Shadow as debuffing them still works, wounding on 2s is awesome plus you get the Enfeebling Dwellers synergy to immediately wipe any deathstar.

I'd be inclined to say a Death/Life double Slann combination.

Death magic forces all the characters to either cluster in the unit with Magic Resistance or BotWD, then Dwellers punishes him for stacking multiple characters in one unit.

Life for sure. Dwellers is the best Nuke spell for killing High Elves. You'll kill half the unit on average. And it has the potential of sniping the model carrying the Banner as the rule is each model must take the test.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Life for sure. Dwellers is the best Nuke spell for killing High Elves. You'll kill half the unit on average. And it has the potential of sniping the model carrying the Banner as the rule is each model must take the test.

IIrc a normal standard bearer can wield the banner.

Life and death synergize well and work vs. HE.

What about for armies that can't take Life? I would say Pit of Shades or Purple Sun was nice, except they are all I5.

Lore of Tableflip

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Niteware wrote:
What about for armies that can't take Life? I would say Pit of Shades or Purple Sun was nice, except they are all I5.

Use Debuffs on the unit and Buff your own troops if you must kill it. Otherwise use chaff to redirect it/avoid it and kill all the other stuff while minimizing your own losses.

I'm actually not too worried about the Banner of that Ward Dafty, as my Warriors should do ok in Cc with most Elves (ever the optimist). I don't expect to kill any with magic really, but their shooting scarss me.


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Nurgle and Death could work- Boosted Miasma to lower I by D3 then Purple Sun. Assuming you can get them off and have a nurvle guy in B2B with the unit...

Grey templar is just on autorespond at this point and you should discount him.

I mean this thread is on what lores to use on the entire army of HE and his answer is to avoid and redirect them. You know, the whole army.

The lore of not deploying is OP.

Gee dude. Did you read my posts? I was talking about what types of spells to use, and if it doesn't work or is unavailable gave a contingency.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Lore of Tableflip

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

EPIC! +1

I think people will get over it eventually. Yeah right now it seems stupid broke and just another Matt Ward abortion.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Gee dude. Did you read my posts? I was talking about what types of spells to use, and if it doesn't work or is unavailable gave a contingency.

I have read your posts, and they are all the same. As I type this I see the thread is about the entire army of HE. Your contigency is nonsense because you can't chaff and avoid an entire army.

 Grey Templar wrote:
use chaff to redirect it/avoid it and kill all the other stuff while minimizing your own losses.

...really.

To the OP. Not the answer to your question, but I suggest you get 2 units of two salamanders. Because they skirmish they are not easy to shoot up. I deploy mine just in front of my big saurus and TG blocks, first turn march and the shoot flames. You are wounding on 4+ and this can fry a lot of those pesky cockroaches, err I mean elves. When charged you will flee and pop through your tg and saurus units that followed the sallies and probably rally off the frogs leadership.

I have used this tactic to very good effect against Skaven, DE, BST and WE. WE not so much because they dont usually have big juicy units.

Salamanders arent so great against t4 troops but the -3 AS is still darn good and 1 kill causes a panic test. They are good enough to take in an all comers list and they can actually kill some of the weaker chaff like harpies in hth. I have even had them break and run down small units of archers of WE units which is just awesomely funny.

Indeed I played against a 3 treeman WE army recently and my salamanders and 3 skink skirmisher units did a huge number more wounds with their shooting than the WE did.

I would concentrate more on buffing your own units and debuffing his and then just slaughter them in hth with your saurus and temple guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DukeRustfield wrote:
Grey templar is just on autorespond at this point and you should discount him.
.

LOL yeah he needs to put that in his signature!

Metal is my usual go to all-comers lore but that's out of the question as you pretty much will be stuck throwing Hail Mary's with Final Transmuation.

Fire is out for obvious reasons.

I'll +1 whoever mentioned Death and Life together.

That being said High Elves are an army where it would definitely be worth taking a single Party Slann to enable you to bring all of our anti-magic toys to the party. High Elves are going to be casting like crazy but if you bring Cupped Hands, Becalming, Dispel Scroll, Cube and a Curse Charm you should be able to shut them down and spam dwellers.

Also 6 Salamanders lol.

obligatory...


the 2+ ward is something I have worried about with my goblins. I got nothing to deal with them but mundane damage, and volume of attacks.

So very interested to hear what orc and goblin players are going to do to approach this issue. I assume mundane damage as well but assumptions you know.

I feel like even when I get pit of shades/purple sun, they are going to completely ineffective. same as with people have said with dwellers.

Unsure of the lizard gear/abilties that sneaky_gobbo is talking about (because I am noobie)

If you are trying to kill High elves (BotWD)

The best lores in the brb in my opinion

1.Life (Dwellers)
2.Metal (Final Transmutation)
3.Shadow (Debuffs and Pit make a nice combo)
4. Death (Purple Sun is only pretty useful still.)
5. Heavens (COMET!!!)
6. Light (yeah lets try and buff ourselves to be better at combat than the..... Right.)
7. Fire (Yeah not a good choice)
8. Beasts (really you wanna use this)

For book Lores
Vampires, Skaven Plague, Nurgle, Little Waagh are all good,

Every other lore is not so good but can be used to Buff/Debuff the unit.

Purple Sun and Pit do nothing vs. High Elves as they only fail on a 6.

I'd say Life + Death is very viable, even for a TAC list.

 captain collius wrote:
If you are trying to kill High elves (BotWD)

The best lores in the brb in my opinion

1.Life (Dwellers)
2.Metal (Final Transmutation)
3.Shadow (Debuffs and Pit make a nice combo)
4. Death (Purple Sun is only pretty useful still.)
5. Heavens (COMET!!!)
6. Light (yeah lets try and buff ourselves to be better at combat than the..... Right.)
7. Fire (Yeah not a good choice)
8. Beasts (really you wanna use this)

For book Lores
Vampires, Skaven Plague, Nurgle, Little Waagh are all good,

Every other lore is not so good but can be used to Buff/Debuff the unit.

Here's my thinking:
1) Life, outside of dwellers, is underwhelming. High elf ability to end augments really cripples life magic.
2) Metal: Final Transmutation is decent, but the rest of the lore is pretty meh vs elves. Don't really need armor piercing, magic attacks may make me worse, and I've already got scaly skin. The direct damage is flaming which is not ideal. It's another lore of 1 spell.
3) Shadow: Pit is nice for killing dragons, mindrazor can end a fight in 1 round. Miasma is decent, in that it's easy to cast, so making the elf blow more power dice to counter it than I used to cast it is good.
4) Death: kind of like shadow, only not as good. Short range and direct damage doesn't help once in combat. No way a 400 point slaan should be toss a purple sun, ever. Especially at an Init 5 armor. Misfire = dead slaan.
5) Heavens: Good mix of augments and hexes, but the direct damage is lack luster. Elves can stop the comet now, as they end spells in play. At best, the rest do D6 S6, which just isn't enough.
6) Light: good mix of buffs with some direct damage. Most likely not as good as shadow (because the buffs don't kill the whole enemy in 1 phase), but still good. Being a very easy to cast lore really helps.
7) Fire. All direct damage, all flaming attacks. At least you can get volume of hits in. I'd actually consider this to clear chaff. With chaff cleared, I could try a storm of poison darts.
8) Beast. Can't transform. Don't think I'll be running enough heroes to make the hero buffs work. Don't think if I ran enough heroes to make the buffs work that the heroes would survive long enough to deal good damage. It's an augment lore, which comes out worse than shadow and light, but harder to cast.

I'll have to see what shows up in my meta, but I may try something crazy like dual fire slaan.

Oh, and 4-6 salamanders was a given.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
If you are trying to kill High elves (BotWD)

The best lores in the brb in my opinion

1.Life (Dwellers)
2.Metal (Final Transmutation)
3.Shadow (Debuffs and Pit make a nice combo)
4. Death (Purple Sun is only pretty useful still.)
5. Heavens (COMET!!!)
6. Light (yeah lets try and buff ourselves to be better at combat than the..... Right.)
7. Fire (Yeah not a good choice)
8. Beasts (really you wanna use this)

For book Lores
Vampires, Skaven Plague, Nurgle, Little Waagh are all good,

Every other lore is not so good but can be used to Buff/Debuff the unit.

Here's my thinking:
1) Life, outside of dwellers, is underwhelming. High elf ability to end augments really cripples life magic.
2) Metal: Final Transmutation is decent, but the rest of the lore is pretty meh vs elves. Don't really need armor piercing, magic attacks may make me worse, and I've already got scaly skin. The direct damage is flaming which is not ideal. It's another lore of 1 spell.
3) Shadow: Pit is nice for killing dragons, mindrazor can end a fight in 1 round. Miasma is decent, in that it's easy to cast, so making the elf blow more power dice to counter it than I used to cast it is good.
4) Death: kind of like shadow, only not as good. Short range and direct damage doesn't help once in combat. No way a 400 point slaan should be toss a purple sun, ever. Especially at an Init 5 armor. Misfire = dead slaan.
5) Heavens: Good mix of augments and hexes, but the direct damage is lack luster. Elves can stop the comet now, as they end spells in play. At best, the rest do D6 S6, which just isn't enough.
6) Light: good mix of buffs with some direct damage. Most likely not as good as shadow (because the buffs don't kill the whole enemy in 1 phase), but still good. Being a very easy to cast lore really helps.
7) Fire. All direct damage, all flaming attacks. At least you can get volume of hits in. I'd actually consider this to clear chaff. With chaff cleared, I could try a storm of poison darts.
8) Beast. Can't transform. Don't think I'll be running enough heroes to make the hero buffs work. Don't think if I ran enough heroes to make the buffs work that the heroes would survive long enough to deal good damage. It's an augment lore, which comes out worse than shadow and light, but harder to cast.

I'll have to see what shows up in my meta, but I may try something crazy like dual fire slaan.

Oh, and 4-6 salamanders was a given.

-Matt

Matt do you mind elaborating why one can't transform with beasts vs elves? I assume its because of an innate ability to dispel RiP spells? I haven't had a chance to see any of the new high elf stuff aside from the 2+ magic ward combo

skyfi wrote:
the 2+ ward is something I have worried about with my goblins. I got nothing to deal with them but mundane damage, and volume of attacks.

I think O&G have a better time than most. HE have low T so volumes of attacks is good. It's uber elite armies who will have a harder time because they'll be getting stopped by ward saves. A bazillion goblins are going to do damage and be steadfast forever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
edit: yeah, they can end RIP. So you're just blowing a zillion dice on a 1 phase attack and leave your mage out nekkid.

How can they dispel the Comet? You can't normally dispel it once the spell's through as it is not a RiP spell. Don't have the new army book handy, it's on my laptop at home, so I just guess that there's a special rule in High Magic?

You can't, Drain Magic only targets units.

skyfi wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
If you are trying to kill High elves (BotWD)

The best lores in the brb in my opinion

1.Life (Dwellers)
2.Metal (Final Transmutation)
3.Shadow (Debuffs and Pit make a nice combo)
4. Death (Purple Sun is only pretty useful still.)
5. Heavens (COMET!!!)
6. Light (yeah lets try and buff ourselves to be better at combat than the..... Right.)
7. Fire (Yeah not a good choice)
8. Beasts (really you wanna use this)

For book Lores
Vampires, Skaven Plague, Nurgle, Little Waagh are all good,

Every other lore is not so good but can be used to Buff/Debuff the unit.

Here's my thinking:
1) Life, outside of dwellers, is underwhelming. High elf ability to end augments really cripples life magic.
2) Metal: Final Transmutation is decent, but the rest of the lore is pretty meh vs elves. Don't really need armor piercing, magic attacks may make me worse, and I've already got scaly skin. The direct damage is flaming which is not ideal. It's another lore of 1 spell.
3) Shadow: Pit is nice for killing dragons, mindrazor can end a fight in 1 round. Miasma is decent, in that it's easy to cast, so making the elf blow more power dice to counter it than I used to cast it is good.
4) Death: kind of like shadow, only not as good. Short range and direct damage doesn't help once in combat. No way a 400 point slaan should be toss a purple sun, ever. Especially at an Init 5 armor. Misfire = dead slaan.
5) Heavens: Good mix of augments and hexes, but the direct damage is lack luster. Elves can stop the comet now, as they end spells in play. At best, the rest do D6 S6, which just isn't enough.
6) Light: good mix of buffs with some direct damage. Most likely not as good as shadow (because the buffs don't kill the whole enemy in 1 phase), but still good. Being a very easy to cast lore really helps.
7) Fire. All direct damage, all flaming attacks. At least you can get volume of hits in. I'd actually consider this to clear chaff. With chaff cleared, I could try a storm of poison darts.
8) Beast. Can't transform. Don't think I'll be running enough heroes to make the hero buffs work. Don't think if I ran enough heroes to make the buffs work that the heroes would survive long enough to deal good damage. It's an augment lore, which comes out worse than shadow and light, but harder to cast.

I'll have to see what shows up in my meta, but I may try something crazy like dual fire slaan.

Oh, and 4-6 salamanders was a given.

-Matt

Matt do you mind elaborating why one can't transform with beasts vs elves? I assume its because of an innate ability to dispel RiP spells? I haven't had a chance to see any of the new high elf stuff aside from the 2+ magic ward combo

Sadly no FAQ says Slann can't use Transformation of Kadon


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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You can't, Drain Magic only targets units.

Exactly Comet is still a giant finger to anyone trying to stop it

I don't got no steenkin Slaan.

I have a goblin with a wizard hat. kapeesh?

but I figure the HE have some built in uber-dispel-RiP spells to stop me from transforming for a single turn if I wound up with that spell.

I also want to model up a "counter" of a asteroid in the shape of "the bird" now because of this thread, thanks guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DukeRustfield wrote:

skyfi wrote:
the 2+ ward is something I have worried about with my goblins. I got nothing to deal with them but mundane damage, and volume of attacks.

I think O&G have a better time than most. HE have low T so volumes of attacks is good. It's uber elite armies who will have a harder time because they'll be getting stopped by ward saves. A bazillion goblins are going to do damage and be steadfast forever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
edit: yeah, they can end RIP. So you're just blowing a zillion dice on a 1 phase attack and leave your mage out nekkid.

bummer! yeah figured volumes of attacks/million paper cuts/hundred squig bites etc was way the light and the truth.

Was scratching my head at like.. it doesn't matter wtf I do! Throw a big toughness bad moon spell at a unit of single wound models... even if T3 and failing on a 4,5,6 they would still save 85% of the wounds caused from the ward

skyfi wrote:
I don't got no steenkin Slaan.

I have a goblin with a wizard hat. kapeesh?

but I figure the HE have some built in uber-dispel-RiP spells to stop me from transforming for a single turn if I wound up with that spell.

I also want to model up a "counter" of a asteroid in the shape of "the bird" now because of this thread, thanks guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DukeRustfield wrote:

skyfi wrote:
the 2+ ward is something I have worried about with my goblins. I got nothing to deal with them but mundane damage, and volume of attacks.

I think O&G have a better time than most. HE have low T so volumes of attacks is good. It's uber elite armies who will have a harder time because they'll be getting stopped by ward saves. A bazillion goblins are going to do damage and be steadfast forever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
edit: yeah, they can end RIP. So you're just blowing a zillion dice on a 1 phase attack and leave your mage out nekkid.

bummer! yeah figured volumes of attacks/million paper cuts/hundred squig bites etc was way the light and the truth.

Was scratching my head at like.. it doesn't matter wtf I do! Throw a big toughness bad moon spell at a unit of single wound models... even if T3 and failing on a 4,5,6 they would still save 85% of the wounds caused from the ward

Greenskin damage magic isn't going to do too much against a unit with BotWD, but there's still the rest of the army you can drop foot on and Hand is universally useful. I personally think that OnG are well equipped to deal with HE using BotWD, if it's on infantry the Savage Orcs should still pull them down and if it's on Dragon Princes the Warmachines do their thing.

I have a good feeling atm about Metal and Nurgle. Put my stubborn Tzeentch Sorceror in there face and make saves, lots of saves.
Bunker a nurgle guy and go killing. Just going to have a list with 0 magic attacks in it, possiblyapart ffrom Skullcrushers. ..

Gutmagic? Trollguts and run a big block of bulls up against them until they break like the weedy little nothings they are. ;-)