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Hey guys, I was just wondering about how Space Marines are prepared for the rank of Captain. I know that normally a Veteran Sergeant is field promoted to Captaincy, but what if a 1st company is promoted to Captaincy? Does he undergo specialist training before hand, leading small task forces, heading up a few missions as part of a larger campaign, sitting in on Captain's meetings ect?
I've always assumed that a rank must exist between Captains and Veterans, purely from a logistical point, but I can't find any reference to this in the fluff past RT. Does anyone know if this would happen, or would a high ranking Sergeant simply split command of a mission with the Captain?
The only reason I ask is that I'm thinking of starting up a specialist task force when I can start modelling again, but at the moment I'm not sure I want to use a Captain, I kinda want to draw up plans for a veteran force as a trial by fire for a senior Sergeant.
Adding on from this, if said rank DID exist, any ideas for markings? Veteran Sergeant helmet, 1st company shoulder trim, no shoulder trim?
All help appreciated guys, thanks in advance.

I've never run into any intermediate ranks for SMs, but frankly, they would not make too much sense, due to the organization structure of the Astartes.

If we go with British army standards(since GW are brits), then the SM Lieutenant would have be in command of something like 3 squads of 10. That would be followed by the the Captain, with 10 squads, as is now. A Major would probably be in command of the 1st Company, and possibly further Majors commanding the most elite Companies, leaving the reserves for the Captains. The Chapter master would be the equivalent of a modern Colonel.

So normally a Leutanent is the lowest officer, that would take 3 squads to complete small missions. That seems to be what happens with the IG, though their platoons are 40 men, not 30.

The problem with that is that the Astartes don't really operate as modern infantry, but as individual special forces squads. Thus a rank like the Lieutenant to stand between the Captain and the sarge is not really used, simply because the lowest operational unit is actually individual squads, which is probably why Lieutenants are not really mentioned. If you do want to model an interminably officer, just add a couple of Lieutenants bars on him.

What there should be, and probably is, is a Corporal rank under sarge, who takes charge of the second Combat Team, when a squad is split up. The Capias Cain book mentions a similar position in for IG squads, though there it's not occupied by a specific rank.

Yeah, Space Marines have Squad Leaders beneath the Sergeant who leads the combat squad.
I guess I'm just more wondering there's a training system for 1st company Veterans so that they can take over when a Captain dies.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
I guess I'm just more wondering there's a training system for 1st company Veterans so that they can take over when a Captain dies.

Space Marines probably all go through the basic leadership training programs once they've graduated to the troop type their Chapter sees as the basis for everything. Anyone rising to Sergeant will already have a solid grasp of things, and 1st Company Veterans are experienced warriors all. And in a small organisation like a Marine Chapter the difference between a Sergeant and a Captain is probably not that great - both must be able to handle it since there's seldom a chance to call HQ for new orders anyway.

With four hours sleep and most of the rest of the day dedicated to training (when in the Fortress-Monastery) there's easily enough time to evaluate and train people in leadership, tactics and strategy too. Not all will cut it, ofc, but anyone considered for Sergeant should also hopefully have the instincts to handle a Captain's duties if needed.

I assume that there is an informal leadership program, where sergeants are given detachments to lead, or serve in command squads to observe and be mentored. Probably different in each chapter. And while there are no separate ranks, there is still experience and seniority. Marine chapters are pretty small, tight knit, groups. They all have the same basic training and traditions programed into them. They can work together without a lot of hierarchy or structure.

And if you want to include more ranks, just go old school.



Lt. Commander replaces the captain of the 1st company. Second only to the commander (aka chapter master)
Captains lead the other 9 companies
Each captain has one Lieutenant. to assist him.
Sergeants lead squads.

Problem is the Lieutenants don't officially exist any more, but I see no harm in using the markings.
It's worth noting that when a Sergeant gets field-promoted, it's because the existing leader has been incapacitated - they don't always get to keep the rank. This is particularly true for when a Captain is wounded as a casualty but heals later on.

Typically speaking, for someone to formally rise to Captain they must be elected, and this is true of any ranks higher than that as well.

So if you told me you were in the army, and you were a captain, what would I know about what you are in charge of doing all day?

You could be a public relations officer who gives statements about base closures. You could command any kind of fighting company. You could be a doctor who just finished residency, but I have no indication whatsoever.

That means there is no point in having any other ranks. There is one type of officer, that means one rank that can be given responsibility for a specific portfolio or project, and one type of NCO, that means one rank that is senior to other marines and can staff a captain and help accomplish that captain's portfolio.

Anyway. "Sergeant" does not mean anything other than being senior to regular battle brothers; they are still parts of their squads. Captains are separate from the body incorporate that each commands.

And ofc, seeing as the marines work in very small forces compared to modern militaries it makes sense to leave the LT out. He's useless anyway - he's just the guy who gets orders from higher up and tells the Sergeant to make it so.

Its not that its a bad idea but it doesn't make much sense fluffwise. Marines work in denominations of 10. 10 companies of 10 squads of 10 marines. So each ranks up (Battle Brother to Sergeant, Sgt to Captain, Cpt to Chapter Master) simply multiplies the responsibility by 10. So its a quick and easy adjustment, especially as how each of those are more or less autonomous.

Think of it this way.

If one battle brother is needed to oversee a druken brawl in a village, he is capable on his own.

If his squad is quelling slight unrest, the Sgt simply gives the orders and entrusts his men to settle bar fights.

If the Company is defending the village from a small Ork attack, the captain gives orders and entrusts the Sergeants to do the nitty gritty details, who entrusts the individual to do what is needed such as quelling bar fight.

The Chapter as a whole is busy fighting a large campaign. The CM gives each company a role and leaves the Captains to command their own company in their job, who instruct the Sgts and blah blah blah.



So the step up isn't a huge leap. The difference is that instead of commanding 1person, you now lead 10. Or 10 men to 10 squads. Or 10 companies. The biggest difference would be from Cpt to CM as now you ONLY issue orders, not take, as well as being in control of overall war effort and fleet and armouries and everything else. But by then you are experianced enough to handle it.

Companies have an attached command squad led by a sergeant.
That sergeant could be a company sergeant/warrant officer type or a lieutenant. Different chapters would have different names for the position.

There is also the possibility that a lieutenant could be a temporary rank given to a sergeant in charge of several squads.
So Chronus for instance could be regarded as a lieutenant as he controls several squads worth of marines. He's not considered a captain as that rank for traditional reasons is reserved for company commanders, but sergeant seems too lowly a rank for what he represents.
Lieutenant would be a good fit for him.

Two words: Veteran. Sergeant.

Tho they've never made it into 40k 'proper', in EPIC (from whence a lot of 40k fluff actually originated, including the actual chapter structure itself) space marines operate in autonomous formations of 30 men for Tacticals and 20 for Assault and Devastators. In the current version of EPIC a Battle Company can be broken down into 5 detachments: 2x 30 Tacticals, 1x 20 Devastators and 2x 5 Land Speeders.

Number of Veteran Sergeants in full strength a Codex Battle Company according to the 3rd edition vanilla dex? 5.

Here's my perspective, purely my preference and how I'd run it if it came up in an RPG campaign or whatever. Since there are so few ranks, and Space Marine doctrine requires near-instant coordination as circumstances change, the company/squad number is a secondary hierarchy. If multiple Captains are on the field, they will defer to the Captain from the lowest-numbered company. If multiple Sergeants are in an area together, they will defer to the lowest-numbered squad's Sergeant. Marines will not issue orders to another Marine of the same rank unless the command structure has been interrupted (e.g. if the Captain has been incapacitated the Sergeant of the lowest-numbered squad will begin issuing orders to other squads). I also like the idea of a team leader position to take control of the second combat squad and act as the sergeant if the actual Sergeant is incapacitated, but that's more a modeling thing (having a model with more flair than the standard Marine who leads the second squad if I split into combat squads). In fact it just works the same as the above system, with the team leader being number two in the squad.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Yeah, Space Marines have Squad Leaders beneath the Sergeant who leads the combat squad.
I guess I'm just more wondering there's a training system for 1st company Veterans so that they can take over when a Captain dies.

Veteran and Sergeant are parallel tracks. Sergeant is a leadership billet, which is why Veteran Squads also have Sergeants. A Veteran is a Space Marine who has shown extraordinary martial ability and resolve. A Sergeant is a Marine who has shown extraordinary leadership and tactical/strategic know-how and has been promoted to a command position.

While certainly Veterans would have a fairly strong leadership ability just from being seasoned Marines, those with the highest leadership potential would then be developed into Sergeants. Hence why Sergeants in regular squads have the Veteran stat line. The Sergeants in the Veteran Squads would just be the cream of the crop of Sergeants, and likely the ones being groomed for eventual Captaincy when/if a billet becomes available. A Veteran Sergeant in one of the line companies would be both a former member of the 1st Company, as well as a Sergeant.


I think there probably should/would be some intermediate ranks, but probably not too many. Lieutenants were phased out, so it's likely that in the absence of a Captain level commander, the most senior Sergeant assumed "Commander" rank and controls that detachment. Possibly even the Sergeant of the Command Squad. After all, Sergeant is the stepping stone below Captain, and given the relatively slow turnover of commanders in the average Space Marine Chapter (think about how long Calgar or Dante have been Chapter Masters, lol. That's a lot of Captains with no promotion possibilities), it's entirely likely that a lot of Veteran Sergeants are equivalent in experience and knowledge to the average junior captains.

Force Commander is probably the rank you are looking for. Probably a veteran sergeant breveted up to just ahead of any other veterans in the formation, but would be subject to orders from a company captain. Such a temporary rank allows for clear chain of command with no need for complex intermediate ranks.

Whoah. Before anyone gets confused by that post, that is not a force commander. Actually, the only time a codex allowed an army to be lead by a veteran sergeant IC, there was a different Force Commander way above him in the same entry that was usable as a chapter master; at least it was the only generic model with Ld10 and three wounds in the codex. The veteran sergeant HQ was just a veteran sergeant.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Whoah. Before anyone gets confused by that post, that is not a force commander. Actually, the only time a codex allowed an army to be lead by a veteran sergeant IC, there was a different Force Commander way above him in the same entry that was usable as a chapter master; at least it was the only generic model with Ld10 and three wounds in the codex. The veteran sergeant HQ was just a veteran sergeant.

To add a few details...

In the 3rd edition codex, as a HQ pick, there was an entry for "Space Marine Heroes" which had 3 levels: Leader, Commander, and Force Commander. The Leader had the same stats as a vet sarge. He was great if you wanted to maximize boots on the ground without sinking a lots of points into characters.

The sidebar for that entry read: "Depending on its size and the importance of its mission, a Space Marine force may be led by an experienced veteran, a Company Captain, or even the Chapter Master himself."

 Deadshot wrote:
Its not that its a bad idea but it doesn't make much sense fluffwise. Marines work in denominations of 10. 10 companies of 10 squads of 10 marines. So each ranks up (Battle Brother to Sergeant, Sgt to Captain, Cpt to Chapter Master) simply multiplies the responsibility by 10. So its a quick and easy adjustment, especially as how each of those are more or less autonomous.

I disagree. In the old fluff it was multiplies of 5 - and it makes much more sense. For one, you have clear chain of command. 10 marines in a squad are led by Sergeant supported by Corporal who takes over one fireteam if squad splits up. Sergeant dies? Corporal takes over. Corporal dies? Sergeant field-promotes one marine to be next one. Same with companies - you have Captain and Lieutenant, who can replace Captain if he dies, or be sent in command of some assets if company needs to split. Clear and allows instant notification who is who now if one officer/nco is knocked out.

Think of it this way - let's assume the other theory that the more senior Sergeant is, the lower his squad number is, is true. Captain needs to split company but he needs squads 1-4 with himself. Who gets to lead other half, then? Sergeant of squad 5? Who has less experience than the other 4? What if Sergeant of squad 1 dies - do we shuffle Sergeants around so that #2 one ends in #1, taking them from squads they know well, or do we change numbers of everyone so that squad #2 is now #1? No, it makes no sense whatsoever, chain of command is there for a reason and Sergeant-only system needs too much handwaving to be viable.

I do not know which old fluff you mean. I know that in army lists before 3e, the size of squads began and ended at ten. All the "fluff" from any relevant source is ten. That does not at all preclude a squad veteran or squad leader, both names for the second rank in the squad.

Had you ever seen the following?

SerQuintus wrote:

Number of Veteran Sergeants in full strength a Codex Battle Company according to the 3rd edition vanilla dex? 5.

That is correct. Captains have staff. They'll have something in place. Did you think there might be a communications officer or procurator/quartermaster in a company? One of the ten sergeants or five veteran sergeants in a company will have each of those jobs, that is why there are ten squad command spots and fifteen squad-command rank personnel.

It just does not appear in army lists because Derr and Obvious.

Irbis wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Its not that its a bad idea but it doesn't make much sense fluffwise. Marines work in denominations of 10. 10 companies of 10 squads of 10 marines. So each ranks up (Battle Brother to Sergeant, Sgt to Captain, Cpt to Chapter Master) simply multiplies the responsibility by 10. So its a quick and easy adjustment, especially as how each of those are more or less autonomous.

I disagree. In the old fluff it was multiplies of 5 - and it makes much more sense. For one, you have clear chain of command. 10 marines in a squad are led by Sergeant supported by Corporal who takes over one fireteam if squad splits up. Sergeant dies? Corporal takes over. Corporal dies? Sergeant field-promotes one marine to be next one. Same with companies - you have Captain and Lieutenant, who can replace Captain if he dies, or be sent in command of some assets if company needs to split. Clear and allows instant notification who is who now if one officer/nco is knocked out.

Think of it this way - let's assume the other theory that the more senior Sergeant is, the lower his squad number is, is true. Captain needs to split company but he needs squads 1-4 with himself. Who gets to lead other half, then? Sergeant of squad 5? Who has less experience than the other 4? What if Sergeant of squad 1 dies - do we shuffle Sergeants around so that #2 one ends in #1, taking them from squads they know well, or do we change numbers of everyone so that squad #2 is now #1? No, it makes no sense whatsoever, chain of command is there for a reason and Sergeant-only system needs too much handwaving to be viabl
e.

Then Captain Cherry picks who goes where. Problem circumvented.

As for multiples of 5, I don't believe it makes more sense. Just don't honestly.


Captain dies, First Sgt takes over, or most senior or whoever he has predetermined as a predecesor.
Sergeant dies, Corporal takes over. This is probably how it works but as it is too difficult to represent in a game format, GW decided "waste of space and ink" and didn't include it as an official rank.

Command squad doesn't need a sergeant as the Captain can lead it directly. Sergeant therefore is loose and can be used to fill in those roles described above.
There is also a company chaplain who unlike modern day chaplains is also an officer/commissar type and capable of leading.

Deadshot wrote:
This is probably how it works but as it is too difficult to represent in a game format, GW decided "waste of space and ink" and didn't include it as an official rank.

Ultimately, this is correct. Games Workshop has never printed any of these chain of command concerns because it's irrelevant to the sales of plastic toy soldiers and tanks.

It's the same reason that any reasonable person looks at the vehicular attachments to a Space Marine Chapter and realizes there's not a chance in hell that they can be manned at even 50% strength by 1000 Marines and still contain a functional infantry component.


Though, 25 years ago when Rogue Trader decided a chapter was 1000 Marines strong, I don't think anyone actually cared how it worked, lol.

I think it's just Battlebrother -> Veteran -> Sergeant -> Captain -> Chapter Master

Along with some ancillary ranks in the command staff such as librarian, chaplain, and apothecary, and some veterans that are highly revered such as the chapter master's honor guard.


But I could be wrong.

What about "Veteran Sergeants"?

Meh. All sergeants are veterans by default, I assumed.

Used to be a Sergeant was free for a SM Squad but a Veteran Sergeant was a character upgrade. I don't think veterean is a rank, just a descriptor. "Scout" now seems to be a rank and the lowest one.

Are scouts even Space Marines yet? I thought they were just initiates in their final stages.

 Melissia wrote:
Are scouts even Space Marines yet? I thought they were just initiates in their final stages.

Scouts have everything but the black carapace needed to be fully integrated with a suit of power armour. They are full-blown Astartes, just not full-blown Battle-Brothers yet.

If they don't have all of the organs necessary to be Astartes, then I'd say they aren't Astartes yet.

Depends on how you look at it. They're considered Space Marines in terms of rank so they'd still have authority over most citizens, Guardsmen, Adeptus Ministorum... etc etc.
Biologically? It's a personal call but I'd say the black carapace in particular is a key part. The power armour is a central theme and point of pride of being a Marine, after all.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Sergeants in regular squads have the Veteran stat line.

That is just as likely motivated by experiments streamlined in book keeping. All of the marine books before that and after Blood Angels have had regular marine stats on sergeants with upgrade to veteran stats.

The Sergeants in the Veteran Squads would just be the cream of the crop of Sergeants, and likely the ones being groomed for eventual Captaincy when/if a billet becomes available. A Veteran Sergeant in one of the line companies would be both a former member of the 1st Company, as well as a Sergeant...


it's entirely likely that a lot of Veteran Sergeants are equivalent in experience and knowledge to the average junior captains.

There is no reason to connect veteran sergeants to the first company, or first company sergeants to captains.

The difference between a Captain and a Sergeant is that a sergeants' primary job in battle is to carry a bolter as whatever equivalent to a rifleman a marine is, and captains are essentially peripheral to the essential marine activity of bolters pointing. Sergeants are effectively regular marines that are senior to their battle brothers, and veteran sergeant only needs to mean a Sergeant that has seniority to other sergeants, not necessarily anything else. The criterion for promotion to veteran sergeant or Captain is probably being a good sergeant, instead being a good terminator- or SF-type sergeant.

That is not to say the first company can't be an officer school, but it isn't. First Company sergeants will always be leading small missions with no direct superior around. However, that's exactly the point, since those are smaller, elite actions unlike the large ones a battle captains commands. As you say, first company sergeants can be as experienced as captains are, and they probably have similar prestige, especially if not all captains pass through the First Company. I think it's more likely that they don't. Every Captain will need someone to take phone calls while he's in the bathroom, and that adjutant probably has a good line on a bigger job. The sergeant erasing mkVIII and v communication gear, that's your next Veteran Sergeant or Captain.

If any good inferences could be drawn from rules, it would be weird that the third edition lists implied that most captains had never been in the first company, but any sergeant or command squad member that had wargear had been a terminator once.